Poll: Shield SAP Timers

[Overtkill]

Possibly. I do like that idea quite a bit. But I would agree with many that increasing the timer again would be bad joo joo. We do appreciate you lowering them down to something more manageable. I know many also like the improvement and would like to see it even lower (having gotten used to the unimplemented version). Personally, having tested the new timer extensively, I would like to see something closer to 30 seconds.

If anyone else has something to add to this, please chime in.

[rhobix]

I think the problem with shield leech in live was that the damage didn't scale the way weapons do. In live I think the damage dealt shield leach was proportional to the level, so max level shield leech did 7 times the damage of level 1 shield leech. To counter this to some degree, we got different types of shield leech at different skill levels, but this didn't even things out. Weapons basically doubles in damage each level, making max weapons 256 times more powerful than level 1 weapons.
I think this should apply to shield leech as well. If we bring this concept together with different cooldowns, all shield leech types could still be useful at all levels, if lower level shield leech types has shorter cooldowns too get them to around the same DPS as higher level types.

[Pink]

I like shield sap right now /ducks

37k dmg in FB each mob on sapping sphere is quite nice for tanking. It doesn't take a huge amount of shield [fyi: it's not insta-death, but rather only 1/4 of shield off for a group of lvl 0 (zero) mobs.]

I don't mind the current timer, either, especially with that kind of dmg, and because of it, I don't think the timer should be shortened, because then it would become OP. And I'm happy that it has been fixed and actually returns shield now.

Don't know how that all inegrates into the rest of the game tho, how it compares to other classes, etc.

I'd love to get CT fixed, too

[jrichards]

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1325902975' post='51062']
ok let's talk about how much damage sap should do - perhaps Orga has a point, that at the highest level it should do something a bit special? I don't think anyone wants the skill to be a crutch, where you can sit there spamming it and kill everything around you without firing a single shot or needing to move - boring!

I'm thinking it should be like "Abu Dabi's horrid wiliting" in AD&D, your average wizard could only cast this maybe twice in a single combat but when he did it really did some nasty damage. So at least then we have a little bit of timing involved.
[/quote]

From what I recall from my PW in Live the max level skill would restore around 1/3rd of the groups shields (L9 shields).....which was a lot of damage/shield restore. It didn't replace the TT but using the skill generated a ton of aggro, did decent damage, and restored a good chunk of shields. Sometimes I would hold off on using the skill, when fighting in Ardus, until i knew the TT was running low on energy. This would give the TT time to get his reactor back up while keeping the group from going into hull.

I love the current timers......finally feels balanced for how powerful the skill was. The amount of damage/shield returned likely needs to be modified/balanced for the max level though. If the skill is changed to be used more frequently then it should do much less damage imo (which would blow).

[Tienbau]

thanks guys, it's all about feedback and getting things working better.

Also I discovered an issue with the sharing of energy/shields and group formations - seems that you needed to be formed up to get the share, but any local group members who weren't formed up would affect the amount of energy shared. This is now fixed so that all group members within the AoE get the sap/leech energy.

Yes, for the highest skill level I feel it should do a little more damage; investing in that highest skill level is a lot of SP and it should pay off a bit more. Also like you say it should share more energy too.

[Overtkill]

Cool! Thanks Tienbau.

[Mattsacre]

Was going through old threads and the info may be redundant by now...but here goes:

higher tiered skills used at deliberate lower levels like L5 sap/leech when you had L7 skill returned the higher skills gains (shield pool/reactor pool),
What was the advantage of using a lower tier instead of the max you could you ask? Charge up time/timers were reduced, just like other skills like grav link and fold space etc.
the listed effects of the lower tier would effect, but fire off much faster with the higher tiers effecacy.

I.E. with shield sap, the PW would give up the ability to hit multiple targets via the L7 skill, only hitting 1 target, but the skill would almost fire off instantly, and do just as much dmg to mob, and return just as much shield as the L7 would have. This was also true for the shield leech, almost every skill if you chose lower tier but had higher skill, the lower tier would fire off faster and do in effect length or distance dmg etc. as the higher.

My PS live could forgo the field effect level of gravity link, and use the single mob GL, he could spam it big time by doing so, the charge up was like 3 sec doing that, but by doing that and adding the gear I had to increase skill level, I got the explosive/impact debuff that PW would have gotten with L5, but saving them the power drain and hassle while giving the debuff for the groups advantage (the TE's loved using explosive zets on birdies in altares when I did that). Edited April 8, 2012 by Mattsacre

[Terrell [BT]]

There is one other advantage of using the L5 version, at least for the JE and Leech. Single target meant that you didn't risk aggroing something that's not already aggroed on you. Important when you play a character that depends on stealth and lacks good shields/armor.

[wootage]

I have been playing a JE, and I question why the ability needs such a crude limiter like timer and 1 mob use. Why not make it a DoT like the PP's shield burn? It would be far more realistic and less immersion-breaking that way.

I understand that in group play it's used as a burst recharge for group reactors, and there's aggro involved, but I'll bet a continuous charge boost would work too, and there'd be less aggro management, leading to better support by the class.

[kjeron]

[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1340339840' post='59386']
I have been playing a JE, and I question why the ability needs such a crude limiter like timer and 1 mob use. Why not make it a DoT like the PP's shield burn? It would be far more realistic and less immersion-breaking that way.

I understand that in group play it's used as a burst recharge for group reactors, and there's aggro involved, but I'll bet a continuous charge boost would work too, and there'd be less aggro management, leading to better support by the class.
[/quote]

It would also kill the skill for any type of solo use, as well as leave the JE very vulnerable in groups. They would be hitting every mob continuously, so aggro would be worse for them, since any mob not being attacked by the rest of the group would go after them.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

Some how there has got to be a percentage worked out.
I think it will depend on weather The Sap/Leech is a Offensive or
Defensive Skill.
Offensive The Drain % would be based on the NPC Shields.
Defensive The Drain % Would be based on the Players Shields or reactor.

Timer IMO 70 seconds for Max level slightly higher drain, It would make the use of
skill points a more of a thought, the Raids would be slightly tougher.

Heres a Thought, (OH NO) [u]For the Highest Level Sap/Leeches.[/u]
For the PW at Max, 10% energy would go the PW and/or Groups [u]Reactor[/u].
For the JE at Max, 10% energy would go to the JEs and/or Groups [u]Shields[/u] It may make the Aggro recieved
survivable.
The JD wouldn't get anything from the Max level Energy Drain, I would like to
BUT I'm not touching that.

I'm going to beat a dead horse here.
Would love to see a NPC reactor level.

[wootage]

[quote name='will' timestamp='1340374047' post='59422']
It would also kill the skill for any type of solo use, as well as leave the JE very vulnerable in groups. They would be hitting every mob continuously, so aggro would be worse for them, since any mob not being attacked by the rest of the group would go after them.
[/quote]

I would think aggro would be more with the 1 big shot version that with the slow DOT version. Also, what skill is there in using a timered, 1-shot-per-mob version of the same ability?

[Terrell [BT]]

Timing, when's the best time to use the skill. The best time, would be using it in a low to moderate reactor power situation. Shield Leech tends to fill a JE's reactor to full, starting at L3, since there are no losses in conversion at this time. Maybe that changes at some point in the future but right now you can drain more in shields than the reactor caps of the best reactors. I could be wrong, but I would think that with the L5 version the amount would be divided between yourself & group members within share range.

I would think that the biggest caps attainable would be somewhere around 10-11K for a Jenquai. Would be a Jenquai with their class specific L8 shield, the Edge of Infinity Reactor, a buff from a JE with a L9 Power Augmenter, and a buff from a JT with L7 Reactor Opitmization. Shield Leech would return enough energy, when used successfully against an apropriate level mob, would fill such a reactor to full.

[wootage]

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1340391324' post='59467']
Timing, when's the best time to use the skill. The best time, would be using it in a low to moderate reactor power situation. Shield Leech tends to fill a JE's reactor to full, starting at L3, since there are no losses in conversion at this time. Maybe that changes at some point in the future but right now you can drain more in shields than the reactor caps of the best reactors. I could be wrong, but I would think that with the L5 version the amount would be divided between yourself & group members within share range.

I would think that the biggest caps attainable would be somewhere around 10-11K for a Jenquai. Would be a Jenquai with their class specific L8 shield, the Edge of Infinity Reactor, a buff from a JE with a L9 Power Augmenter, and a buff from a JT with L7 Reactor Opitmization. Shield Leech would return enough energy, when used successfully against an apropriate level mob, would fill such a reactor to full.
[/quote]

Well, the timing is because it's a triggerable, large-effect mechanic, right? that goes away with continuous DoT effect.

Although if it were a DoT that was short-term, required you to be uncloaked (continuous beam effect), and had a timer on its use, maybe that would be a fair compromise? You'd lose the artificial restrictions put on the skill right now and have less instant-aggro, but you'd still have the skill factor of deciding when to use it (a bit more skill, in fact), the total group benefit would be the same, and the timer would be an easy way to balance the power of the skill.

And it's completely within the mechanics of the game, so it doesn't break immersion like the 1-shot-per-mob rule.

Granted we're not even into playtesting yet, so maybe it's a "who cares until later" thing. I just saw the thread and wanted to put 2 more cents in

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1340400466' post='59511']
Well, the timing is because it's a triggerable, large-effect mechanic, right? that goes away with continuous DoT effect.[/quote]

Are you talking about area of effect with L6 and L7? If so you'll find that in playing my JE I almost always use the L5 version despite having the skill maxed, so as not to aggro mobs that aren't already aggroed.

[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1340400466' post='59511']Although if it were a DoT that was short-term, required you to be uncloaked (continuous beam effect), and had a timer on its use, maybe that would be a fair compromise? You'd lose the artificial restrictions put on the skill right now and have less instant-aggro, but you'd still have the skill factor of deciding when to use it (a bit more skill, in fact), the total group benefit would be the same, and the timer would be an easy way to balance the power of the skill.[/quote]

I think we're better off leaving it the way it is. Most of the time if I'm in combat or support and not either firing or using a device/skill, I intend to be cloaked. Visiblity for a JE = Vulnerablity. Adding a requirement to be uncloaked, for longer than the power up time of the skill, means I'm going to be in a position to be killed more than I'd otherwise be the way the skill is originally. That's why as a JE I use a Coma, Cloak, and the lowest sig engine I can get my hands on, and use a DG for the reduce sig buff. Will get a Loony's Special Gizmoblatsit when Emulator gets to the point where it's in game, so I can keep my sig low as well as the other buffs it gives, scan, tracor beam speed/range. I want to keep myself as hard to detect as I can possibly be.

[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1340400466' post='59511']And it's completely within the mechanics of the game, so it doesn't break immersion like the 1-shot-per-mob rule.

Granted we're not even into playtesting yet, so maybe it's a "who cares until later" thing. I just saw the thread and wanted to put 2 more cents in
[/quote]

I don't mind it being one shot per mob as a JE, remember that when killing things, solo over CL, it likely takes me long enough to get a 2nd Shield Leech in on the same mob.

[HellHasArrived]

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1340391324' post='59467']
Timing, when's the best time to use the skill. The best time, would be using it in a low to moderate reactor power situation. Shield Leech tends to fill a JE's reactor to full, starting at L3, since there are no losses in conversion at this time. Maybe that changes at some point in the future but right now you can drain more in shields than the reactor caps of the best reactors. I could be wrong, but I would think that with the L5 version the amount would be divided between yourself & group members within share range.

I would think that the biggest caps attainable would be somewhere around 10-11K for a Jenquai. Would be a Jenquai with their class specific L8 shield, the Edge of Infinity Reactor, a buff from a JE with a L9 Power Augmenter, and a buff from a JT with L7 Reactor Opitmization. Shield Leech would return enough energy, when used successfully against an apropriate level mob, would fill such a reactor to full.
[/quote]
More likely a HotM as Edge of Infinity doesn't drop... I would definitely use one if I obtained it in hulkfest, as they did drop out of them at that point in time.

[jrichards]

I don't recall lower levels of high levels skills being on a shorter timer and doing the same damage. My PW;s shield sap in live was never spam-able nor was my JE or JD shield/energy leach. I think the functionality is working correctly and its simply a matter of balance at this point. Does the skill, per level, drain enough and can be used in an effective rotation. Those are the points I would argue about, give feedback and examples on.

Spamming these skills, as you could do months ago, just isn't going to happen unless the Devs get hit by a herd of moose.....it could happen [img]http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Animals/Deer_and_Moose/moose_runs.gif[/img]

[Overtkill]

Wow, this thread is still kicking? Hmm. Well, I would still like to see them closer to or somewhat less than 30 seconds. I still say that a given mob could/should be able to be hit twice at max setting as it was in live. As for aggro, well I do hit them with SAP at max setting and cloak immediately. It has never gotten me killed, and you sure don't want to try it on GoBB or his minions. The trick is to be smart and careful with the skill, as I know many of you expert JE's already are. But I still think the timers are a bit long.

Recharge timers in general are annoying, though I do understand them and why they are there. I just believe that you should be able to use something (skill or whatever), as long as you have the means or juice to fire it off. I also recall being able to equip certain things like devices while at warp. I figure that the work in progress aspect will eventually allow this to become a reality again.

Thanks for reading...

-Overt.

P.S. -To Crichton's post...

I agree that the skills should not be spamable, but the timers are a bit long, even still. I do recall being able to hit the mob twice (at around your own CL) before they croaked.