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Poll: Shield SAP Timers

SAP Timers  

39 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think of the current SAP timers for the JE and/or the PW?

    • I like the new SAP timing.
    • It should be slightly reduced
    • It should be halved from the current time
    • It should be put back the way it was, or significantly shortened..
    • I have no opinion or no character that uses this skill
  2. 2. What do you think the timing should be at max skill?

    • ~ 70 seconds (Current)
    • 60 Seconds
    • 45 Seconds
    • 30 Seconds
    • 20 Seconds
    • 15 Seconds
    • Don't have a toon with this skill, so I chose this answer.


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This is a public opinion poll regarding the current state of the shield sap timers. Please keep in mind that I posted this in general because I wanted this topic to be easily found so that others would have a chance to weigh in on their opinions and views on what they would like to see.

So please follow up your vote with a quick comment on what your ideal SAP timer should be.

Thanks!

-Overt.

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Rabid is unfortunately correct, a opinion poll will never make them change the way they have coded in the skills no matter how many people vote for it to change.

You have better luck pulling a tiger tooth while its awake and alert.
In the end its a hopeless gesture.

I do know your pain however, I have totally quit the EMU due to the crippling skill changes, and will not be back unless things are changed back, which will never happen.

Progen warrior is broken hardcore with these changes, I can understand not wanting soloing but in groups and raids they are worthless, and it was my favorite Race and class.

So on that note, I am not even going to vote.
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Give it time, Alpha & Beta haven't come yet, so there are many changes to balance that are still to be made. Devs mention having 3 more tasks they need done before Alpha starts.

The PW will in time be fixed so it's the best warrior at sustained combat both in toughness & DPS.

The JW will the assassin class, they will hit hardest when it comes to short bursts, but will lack the staying power of the other two warriors due to it's poor shields and no HDC skill.

The TW will be the fastest warrior with the most weapon range, their shields and armor will be average and their reactors poor.

The support classes will all have to be worked on as well, so they'll all bring something unique and necessary. Of the supporters the Scout & Seeker need the most work.

Hang in there, eventually the game will be properly balanced, but there will be some pain involved.

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[quote name='Maniac' timestamp='1325548027' post='50807']
Rabid is unfortunately correct, a opinion poll will never make them change the way they have coded in the skills no matter how many people vote for it to change.

You have better luck pulling a tiger tooth while its awake and alert.
In the end its a hopeless gesture.

I do know your pain however, I have totally quit the EMU due to the crippling skill changes, and will not be back unless things are changed back, which will never happen.

Progen warrior is broken hardcore with these changes, I can understand not wanting soloing but in groups and raids they are worthless, and it was my favorite Race and class.

So on that note, I am not even going to vote.
[/quote]

Interesting that you pick NOW to post a PW whine with all the posts and work currently being done on the PW. Me thinks you should read a few of the posts started by TB on what he has been doing. It may not be fast enough but at least it isn't another "we will get to it when we get to it" Come on back dust off your PW and participate as it isn't very often we get to help fix a broken race WHILE the changes are being made.

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i just think its funny that the JE's never cared when they nerfed the PW, but you're all crying now! "get used to it, you were overpowered" lol

oh and no vote from me! Edited by BrixunMortar

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[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1325553731' post='50809']
Interesting that you pick NOW to post a PW whine with all the posts and work currently being done on the PW. Me thinks you should read a few of the posts started by TB on what he has been doing. It may not be fast enough but at least it isn't another "we will get to it when we get to it" Come on back dust off your PW and participate as it isn't very often we get to help fix a broken race WHILE the changes are being made.
[/quote]


I agree Mimir

The dev team are working in RL + in emu, and I may come off a little rough time to time but I am the type that speaks what they feel. I have Multiple toons and only my PP I would consider my main. So I am not a JE whining or a PW complaining, but I have to agree PW feel weak compared to live at this time and I can understand some of the complaints.

There is still alot of balancing to be done and tweaking. This is a work in progress, now if the devs got paid to do this they could do alot more after quitting their non emu related job, but that is unlikely.


But I find it unfair that some whine "oh JE leaching more often than PW sapping is unfair". Get over it, PW have 6 guns compared to the JE 3. In a fight JE could use a little more love than PW, when was the last time a PW mined a poprock that took almost all their shields and are face to face with a nasty mob? Never of course.

And to be blunt I rarely even used it on my JE since I dual box JE and PP mostly when not in a group with others with my PP, so don't say "oh you are a JE whiner".

Also for those that don't know guess what leech is different from sap since it doesn't regen shields only reactor and JE don't have many energy issues to begin with.

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[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1325553731' post='50809']
Interesting that you pick NOW to post a PW whine with all the posts and work currently being done on the PW. Me thinks you should read a few of the posts started by TB on what he has been doing. It may not be fast enough but at least it isn't another "we will get to it when we get to it" Come on back dust off your PW and participate as it isn't very often we get to help fix a broken race WHILE the changes are being made.
[/quote]
Main reason why I have not posted till now is because I just plain have not been on the forums for quite awhile, hop on here and again, but I just cannot get myself to log in with how bad the PW was hit. I am really not complaining that much that they changed things, however the last time I was on it just plain hurt.

I really not complaining as much as finally posting my opinion, I read a few days ago that they will not even consider custom changes compared to what it was, which in a way I agree with, to a certain degree, and that is what I was pointing out. Right now my computer is in many ways taking a shit, but have a new computer on the way and may end up logging in at some point when I get it.

Edit: On a quick note, If the weapons actually fired at the rate that the delay says, not just capped at 1 shot per second, then the other nerf's would not hurt so bad as they do now, that is another reason why I have not had the desire to log in game. Edited by Maniac

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'What's good for the goose is good for the gander'
Make all the Offensive skill/tacktic with the same timer and with the same percentages given and taken.
Shield Sap, Sheild Leech, Energy Leech etc etc etc...
But man with two coders its going to take time.
Too bad its not as easy as copy and paste with a name change. :P

Phorlaug..

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[quote name='BrixunMortar' timestamp='1325556742' post='50810']
i just think its funny that the JE's never cared when they nerfed the PW, but you're all crying now! "get used to it, you were overpowered" lol

oh and no vote from me!
[/quote]

For the record, I stood by all you PW's as well when that happened so your comment does not apply to this JE.

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I'll weigh in since I have 2 classes with a sap function.

I've played this entire stress test with a pw as my main.

And I've had unlimited sap to 2 minute sap and I like 30-45 seconds if the damage was updated to what it was a while back( I could get 100k sap damage on 60+ mobs) and the shield recharging was a little higher(maybe 1/4 shield recharge. A pw is a combat class and they can't run(te) and they can't hide(jd) they are the lowest dps warrior class by design they have other skills to pull and hold aggro and they need to fix the skills so it works correctly. Gravity link works sorta it doesn't pull aggro and it's supposed to and it has in this emulator.
Inversion is also a area combat skill to pull aggro and enrage(need we comment on this useless skill).

46 seconds on je's... About time. Now you know how the pw's feel.

If you are looking for sympathy for the je's don't they needed this and the dev's knew it and I applaud you doing it finally.. My opinions are well known on this subject.

Keep up the good work guys I look forward to the fixing of skills and bugs and getting back to content updates it's been a while since we got a new sector or two to play in.
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[quote name='Maniac' timestamp='1325548027' post='50807']
Rabid is unfortunately correct, a opinion poll will never make them change the way they have coded in the skills no matter how many people vote for it to change.

You have better luck pulling a tiger tooth while its awake and alert.
In the end its a hopeless gesture.

I do know your pain however, I have totally quit the EMU due to the crippling skill changes, and will not be back unless things are changed back, which will never happen.

Progen warrior is broken hardcore with these changes, I can understand not wanting soloing but in groups and raids they are worthless, and it was my favorite Race and class.

So on that note, I am not even going to vote.
[/quote]

Damn dude you give up way to easily.

Most of the pw's soldiered on thru all of the nerf's and outright breaking of the class are still here.

Me Bellshade Prrekoorb and others we are at the top of the food chain and we need healers to go after endgame and excessive mob areas.(try going after gobb without half a dozen healers and a smart pw).

The dev's stated they wanted this a group game.

I can still solo 60 voltoi without to much hassle on Devil. I don't expect to kill 60+ they are endgame content.

I think the tengu in cooper is a bit excessive but we have said that for a long time.

Now the je's get a gentle love nerf and they are browning off and quitting, good riddance if your skin is that thin( where is my can opener I need a tasty tidbit).

Keep up the good work dev's and ty for making the jenquarhoum suffer a little. I does feel good. And yes I have a jd and a js and a JE..
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Have the people critisizing the skills actually logged in over the past week and tried the fixes?

It was regretable that something fundamental was broken for so long ... but hey let's try to leave the past behind yeah?

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I'll not be quitting over this, but I would like to see something a bit better reasonable than what we have currently. I am concerned that other good people will leave the game, and diminish our dwindling numbers. While I dislike the current timer, I am willing to compromise to something that everyone can agree with. That's all. I'm happy to go with what the public decides is the dev's might be willing to listen, Tienbau included.

To Tienbau: I agree that the skill was broken for a long time. However I do also believe a sudden increase greater than a 3 fold is a bit much. Can we compromise to a lesser value?

Thanks for reading....

-Overt.

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I can live with it the way it is. Eventually mobs will be able to resist it. Instead of shortening the timer, over the long run, begin to introduce equipment that buffs those skills that were added to each class after live started. That would apply to all 6 of the original classes not just the 3 leech/sap skills.

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[quote name='Overtkill' timestamp='1325566293' post='50823']
For the record, I stood by all you PW's as well when that happened so your comment does not apply to this JE.
[/quote]

i know you had our backs overt! but most JE's just said suck it up! now its them thats been hit n the whine starts from the JE's! maybe if everyone had stood behind the PW in the 1st place the nerf of the JE wouldn't have happened! only maybe mind...

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I've never played a JE until now in this st4 stage but I observed the game mechanics and learning skills/tactics/abilities are most balanced when there being earned not gained. Another words combat cloak its a good skills now is part of tactic for je in combat but had the combat cloak timings been reversed! Then it would be useless skill. Same thing with pw's precious shield nova and ram, if it were designed to do less dps at max then in the begging it becomes a useless skill. This is not the case and there fore it was balanced in live.

The wants and needs of a unbalanced skill only means that it should not be nerfed but REVERSED! so as for Shield leech as far as i know the timings should be reduce much less as u reach maximum skill but in begging its very slow this actually is relative to the hacking and bio-repression skill it takes longer to hack in begging then it does when u max it out. Thats a well balanced mechanic its not hard just observed and analyze the game when playing. I have yet to see the devs reverse any game mechanics or skill abilities just for experimentation they fear it and nerf it before hand its a pitty. U spend time, donations and thrills to reach that point of uberness that is what maxes the games fun and joyfulness. Having end game items with maxed skillz that other races wishes they could have but known it's not destined for them, because every race should have a special uber skill in the end not the beginning!!! I stress that and I think so did Westwood.

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I think the reason the recharge increases very slightly as the level goes up is because the shield leech skill can be used on multiple mobs at the higher levels which I just checked is working properly. We're still fiddling with the recharge/mob immunity to shield leech.

One thing I would like to see is the max leeching % removed. A very powerful shield leech should be able to kill mobs and as of right now using the highest level shield leech on a combat level 0 does only about 30% of its health. I think the maximum is around 30-40%

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ok let's talk about how much damage sap should do - perhaps Orga has a point, that at the highest level it should do something a bit special? I don't think anyone wants the skill to be a crutch, where you can sit there spamming it and kill everything around you without firing a single shot or needing to move - boring!

I'm thinking it should be like "Abu Dabi's horrid wiliting" in AD&D, your average wizard could only cast this maybe twice in a single combat but when he did it really did some nasty damage. So at least then we have a little bit of timing involved.

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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1325902975' post='51062']
ok let's talk about how much damage sap should do - perhaps Orga has a point, that at the highest level it should do something a bit special? I don't think anyone wants the skill to be a crutch, where you can sit there spamming it and kill everything around you without firing a single shot or needing to move - boring!

I'm thinking it should be like "Abu Dabi's horrid wiliting" in AD&D, your average wizard could only cast this maybe twice in a single combat but when he did it really did some nasty damage. So at least then we have a little bit of timing involved.
[/quote]

If you can vary the cooldown on the highest level, sure. However; as a JE I'd be much more likely to use the L5 version of the skill, even if maxed because the L5 only targets one mob, rather than an area of effect. Using the L6 or L7 version of the skill, unless I have backup from a group or an isolated enemy where it's the only one getting hit, will draw additional attention that I'd not want in a fight that's all about stealth.

The PW could benefit from this type of thing, let them have it, doesn't really work for the JE since it'd be an area aggro magnet.

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yes I was meaning the PW, would be nice for the PW to have a big AoE one-shot high damage aggro draw thing, that they can use occaisionally, once or maybe twice in a big fight.

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Gonna change the label for L7 shield sap from "Group Sapping Sphere" to "Doomsday"?

It'd make sense. :twistedevil:

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Speak for yourself. Personally I think in a group environment the damage increase, with an improvement in reactor power return, balanced with a moderate time (30-40 seconds) on the max skill for leech would be a welcome idea to many JE's. I seldom fire mine off in single target mode, especially in raids where I supply power to the rest of the group. As far as leech activation time (from the start of the skill initiation to the actual activate time), adding a little time by fractions of seconds is fine, but the rearm time after a mob has been sapped should be taken into account as well. So adding more time that way would only serve to cripple us further.

On the subject of sap, is the energy leech for the JD in the near term plans to be added to the game? Or is it going to be a while? I have been told by many players that it is not working yet, and would like to hear something from you guys (Dev's) regarding this issue.

My wife who also plays a JE and a PW, was playing her PW last night, -noticed that the timer did not reset when she switched mobs (after the first was killed). We both recall that the sap in live, would reset when targeting a new mob. Just something that might need further tweaking. She also mentioned the glitch with the combat trance not starting all the time as it should, and having to beat it out of her ship to get it to start (jiggling the mouse a bit) since it is after all, a Progen ship. :)

Thanks!

-Overt.

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I also want to add that when the shield leech was the way it was before the change. Having it maxed on a JE I wasn't invincible! Though I could target a group of mobs 5-10 cl above me, I had an ivory ward + wyverns pride + Puks Pride = not to 89 on all resis like a TE can but a whooping 50-63 on most resis. Not only that but I had obviously bigger shield to keep up with the drain that comes with shield leech! An average group of mobs cl 5-10 above me was able to usual within short time period cut up 1/2 of my shield with resis leaving me with 30% before reaching hull so many times I had manage to defeat the mobs but take hull dmg at same time depending if you were playing suicidal or not because lucky for you mobs like in vg respwan pretty quick! :) So the Skill when working properly and at max won't make you invincible That's why i don't understand why ppl are crying. There was still risk involved unlike a pw who could set there like a duck without any shield problems and sap away with a beer in his hand.

It was mandatory for me to watch for readings and paying attention to most of the time watching for dmg and won't not. not to mention, cl 5 above shield leech would do 30-40% dmg while at cl 5-10 would do LESS argumentative dps then what is being exaggerated here! I believe it took longer to defeat a cl 10 above mob with shield leech maxed compared to one around cl 1-5 above me that seemed balanced to me. If you want to keep the timings raise the dps i couldn't even hurt a cl 10 mob with my je and hes cl 36! Or you could shortening the timings to make up for that like of dps and I hope a made a better understand of the skill shield leech it's self.

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Also I think another big problem with leech, one I've exploited, is that it has no 'to hit' roll, so you can damage mobs way above your CL, whereas actual weapon shots wouldn't touch the mob.

I think it's a lot better with the timers because there is a lot more involved. I used to tank manes way above my CL with the old broken leech, knowing it was wrong and thinking - 'we gotta fix this'.

Leech was never intended to be a primary offensive weapon, merely a support one. It's much more powerful than it's live counterpart at the moment, but yeah it's not an uber weapon like it used to be while it was broken.

It's a result of the server getting implemented. The original skill was just wired up to get something working, now we're in round 2 heading toward alpha we got to get everything working better.

One idea that someone had was to make the very top level skill something special. I really like this idea - we could have a really powerful one-shot group leech, with a long mob cooldown but that would cause a lot of damage. This would be able to be used once and if you're lucky twice per combat. It'd be like letting off a big bomb, and create a lot of intensity when deciding when to use it.

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