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Sap will not be changed back to be able to be spammed on the same mob, see previous post. What I gleaned out of the above is you want to be able to solo (or maybe duo) level 60 mobs, also not intended thus sorry dude.

Don't like it, not much we are gonna do about it. We're not overpowering the class simply so its "more fun" because you can kill anything solo.

Telling us its useless is useless. Tell us moreso (with details) why you think it is useless and we might be able to help out.
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First off, someone's saying inversion isn't working.

Let's start an 'inversion' thread like I suggested, and get that working first.

Let's just get the skills working correctly. The mob timer is a step in the right direction at least. The way things were before it was a joke. I could sit there spamming group sap as my immortality shield for me and the group during any raid or fight. It was totally broken.

The timer was originally set too high and it was halved several months ago.

Clearly no-one's tried sap since that one week where it was set at 2 mins.

Now it's only 50% broken, lets try to get it working, but start off with inversion first.

The more negative posts that are put up, and the more ignorning of people who want to get things working, the longer this is going to take.

thanks,

TB
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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1325125235' post='50514']
Sap will not be changed back to be able to be spammed on the same mob, see previous post. What I gleaned out of the above is you want to be able to solo (or maybe duo) level 60 mobs, also not intended thus sorry dude.

Don't like it, not much we are gonna do about it. We're not overpowering the class simply so its "more fun" because you can kill anything solo.

Telling us its useless is useless. Tell us moreso (with details) why you think it is useless and we might be able to help out.
[/quote]

Hear you load an clear will be deleting accts, thanks for the memories for awhile anyways.
Just a note, we are not all testers or coders young man, but we can make donations, good luck with your emulator.
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Alas, sorry to hear it, but goodbye.

This is a game test, and we've never belied that status to anyone, and we've always said changes are going to happen. Plenty of them aren't going to be something that someone, somewhere wants, but they have to happen just the same. Nature of game design I'm afraid.

Take care.
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It is sad to see yet another leave, I think you need to speak to old time PW players from just before sunset (not use documents from beta live) Please...talk to old timers on the PW abilities before you start throwing out the babies with the bath water. Sneaky played a PW up until the plug was pulled. He would be a valuable asset to the PW info team. I am sure there are others still around. For the sake of the emulator please take a step back and get the information you need... I do know that a PW could and did often solo 60 mobs in live, in fact I was able to solo single 60s with my PS (with PW backup). I think your information may be in error on what the PW class could do. What level were cloud riders? I also remember a PW being able to take on Virix level 60s. Am I remembering this wrong?
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The info we have comes from the guy who wrote the strategy guides, but if someone could post a coherent proposition for how to get the thing working better it would help; scattershot 'the devs suck for taking away my exploit, gone 4 evar' posts don't really achieve anything.

I started two threads so we can get these two skills sorted.
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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1325130113' post='50529']
The info we have comes from the guy who wrote the strategy guides, but if someone could post a coherent proposition for how to get the thing working better it would help; scattershot 'the devs suck for taking away my exploit, gone 4 evar' posts don't really achieve anything.

I started two threads so we can get these two skills sorted.
[/quote]



I see you are trying to get the info and I admire your effort, I know you just can't let everyone who says give it to me or I walk what they want. My fear is the players that see what is happening maybe whine a bit in game most don't say anything and quietly leave the game. More often than not they just are not on any longer.

Unfortunately it's not me who can give you accurate information on the PW. I played a PS in live and only came to love the power of the PW in here, pre-adjustments. But there are PWs in game that can help you with what they could do in live. Listen to them. Not all players come to the forums. I tried to have them come to the forums and discuss this and you would have thought I was trying to start a revolt or mutiny.

Oh and when pop rocks are in a field they still won't let me get the field clear bonus. I thought that was fixed.
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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1325130113' post='50529']
The info we have comes from the guy who wrote the strategy guides, but if someone could post a coherent proposition for how to get the thing working better it would help; scattershot 'the devs suck for taking away my exploit, gone 4 evar' posts don't really achieve anything.

I started two threads so we can get these two skills sorted.
[/quote]

JMO but people play this game for many different reasons. Myself I play because of the fond memory's of live and the fact it is the most fun game I have ever played. All I ask the Devs to do is keep it fun, I don't care about parity of class, there wasn't in live. TW was a kiter, PW was in your face and best sustained damage, JD was best burst damage and had to be because of Lv8 shields.

Trade runs were a good way to level Traders, mining for Explorers. All I ask myself, not speaking for anyone else is don't nerf the fun out of the game and I will keep playing. Most of the people playing make alts and more alts, don't make it so hard to level them you want to quit.

Myself I don't understand the need to nerf everything it seems. many times I kited Mobs half way across a sector in live, thats what a Terran does. Why the reset on the mobs, why link so many, they were not like this in live at least not the normal mobs. I really don't care if a PW can Shield sap organics to death, if it bothers me I'll make one, I did, I made two 150 PWs. I really don't care that JDs take no damage cloaked, its a fun toon to play.

Some days I just want to listen to music or watch a ball game and do Trade runs or Mine, these things should pay for your time spent. I feel the Devs in general have done a fantastic job, that doesn't mean my disagreement with the direction the game is going is a knock on their hard work. I only ask one thing, keep it fun. RTR
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Any of you who played during beta or live will remember that [b]nothing[/b] introduced to the game ever stayed as originally installed. There were always adjustments made to balance the game. I have read the patch notes several times, and though it was a very long time ago, I just don't remember sap having the 2 minute timer clear up until sunset. I could be wrong, cause I too am an old guy and the memory is the second thing to go. :P I do remember when at all possible putting SP's into sap, even before other base skills because of how useful it was.


TB, I'm curious... when you tested sap in a raid environment, were you using a regular play account with no "special" gear or abilities? I only ask this because I attend lots and lots of raids, and I have yet to see a pw capable of self sustaining a raid environment. I can guarantee you, were it not for us healers, those progens would be smoking wrecks on the battle field. BTW, I'm not trying to be a smartaleck here, genuinely querious. :)
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Kyp.

I've seen and payed witness to a JD and JE taking the 'Target Destryoed' Message in raids

Example

Main Progen Warrior Equipment

Ten-gu Bile cannon X2 200% reload 1.3 secs counted as 1 second
Flachette Omega 200% reload 0.8 secs counted as 1 second
Brimstone Ballista 200% reload 1.5 secs counted as 2 seconds
Black Spitter 107% reload 4.1 secs counted as 4 seconds
Fury of the master 135% reload 1.1 secs counted as 1 second
Overall Damage Per Second with out Debuff around 812.62
Havent used the L9 Gorgons to test yet.

Support Jenquai Explorer Equpment ** note theses numbers are without Combatcloak adding damage **
Glare of Devistation 118% Reload 11 secs
Devistating Gaze 200% 10 secs
Made to live 200% 6 secs
Overall Damage per second without debuff 444.72
Overall Damage per second with Debuff L9 Chimera's Dred Scourge -46.0 Plasma Deflect for 216 seconds
996.78

My data is incomplete but i have heard it and i can and will record it that a JE can out DPS a PW and get the kill in a face off, Also the JE sap is uneffected by the 2 minute timer so they can throw out a shield leech alot faster then a PW can so theres a chunk of DPS there i'm not after anything but just to get a good tank back in the game one that can Take alot of damage and throw it right back. Edited by JonesPW
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That JE is VERY well equipped, you have 3 of the 4 most powerful beams a JE can use. (Only the Distortion Array is missing, you'd have to replace the DG to get more firepower out of your JE) Are those the 6 best PLs a PW can use? Also don't forget that mobs cannot resist skills as of yet. When they learn to do so, Shield Sap/Shield Leech will no longer be as reliable for DPS. Don't forget to include that the PW gets 70% criticals for max critical targeting skill, plus whatever buffs to criticals are equipped. If your DG is 200% quality you should get just under 30% critical hits on your JE absent other buffs. That big difference in critical hit percentage will make the PW's damage numbers bigger since critical hits do 2X damage. Also what's the PW's DPS when the JE debuffs the mob, since that's how they should work together? The Chim debuff increases the damage for anyone shooting the mob with plasma.
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[quote name='JonesPW' timestamp='1325142712' post='50547']
Kyp.

I've seen and payed witness to a JD and JE taking the 'Target Destryoed' Message in raids

Example

Main Progen Warrior Equipment

CFB
Ten-gu Bile cannon X2 200% reload 1.3 secs
Flachette Omega 200% reload 0.8 secs
Brimstone Ballista 200% reload 1.5 secs
Black Spitter 107% reload 4.1 secs
Fury of the master 135% reload 1.1 secs
Overall Damage Per Second with out Debuff around 812.62
[/quote]
As far as I can tell, that setup should do about 1000 base DPS with PM ammo, though my PW is OL11 so I have no way to confirm it... And as Terrell said, the a PW who loads plasma ammo will also benefit from the plasma debuff...

If it's hard to get reloads below 1 s to work, I'd try to get around it by firing 2 (or even 3 rounds for Flechette if you get over 64% turbo) with twice (or three) times the reload when reloads get below 1 s.

Guess I could get an Executioner's Hand, a Startle gun and a Switchblade for my PW and do some time measurements to confirm or reject the existance of a 1 s lower reload limit.
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[quote name='Knix' timestamp='1325150893' post='50550']
If it's hard to get reloads below 1 s to work, I'd try to get around it by firing 2 (or even 3 rounds for Flechette if you get over 64% turbo) with twice (or three) times the reload when reloads get below 1 s.
[/quote]

that was exactly what I was thinking too, if we really can't manage more than 1 reload/sec. Not sure why it was a problem way back when but I'm sure someone left a comment. Sounds like a stop-gap fix. Could have been me who done it too ...

Anyway check out the threads in dev help about inversion and sap for where things are going. We've made a bit of progress too.
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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1325158853' post='50553']
that was exactly what I was thinking too, if we really can't manage more than 1 reload/sec. Not sure why it was a problem way back when but I'm sure someone left a comment. Sounds like a stop-gap fix. Could have been me who done it too ...

Anyway check out the threads in dev help about inversion and sap for where things are going. We've made a bit of progress too.
[/quote]

It's not actually a 1-second relaod cap, a 200% Flechette Omega L9 with full turbo will shoot twice per second, reloading at .5 seconds. Rather all weapons final reload is rounded up to the nearest half-second. Even over time, ammo usage verifies that it doesn't even out in the long run. Beams, Projectiles and Missiles all suffer from this.
It also shows that while Turbo is stacking as per Live, with the addition of the Blackbeard items, it is still being capped just below 80%.

A GoD(11s) will at best reload in 6.5 seconds, an equivalent of 69.2% turbo.
A Defender's Pride (8s) will at best reload in 4.5s, for 77.7% turbo.
Any 4 second reload beam will at best reload in 2.5s, for 60% turbo.
All Sango Line and other beams at 1 second reload never get any lower with turbo, as it would require atleast 100% to reach .5s. Achieve 0% Turbo.
Basically any beam above a 4s relaod can achieve atleast 60% turbo, any beam below 4s and above 1s ranges from 25%-50%, and 1s beams don't achieve any.

A 200% Bile Cannon (1.3s) will at best relaod in 1 second, for only 30% turbo.
A 200% Longbow Delta (1.7s) will at best reload in 1 second, but for 70% turbo, and actually does more DPS right now than any other PL except the Spitter. - Oh the Ammo problems a PW could have if they went all-out dps right now.
A 200% Flechette Omega (.82s) will at best reload in .5 seconds, for 64% turbo, and is currently second best behind the Longbow for DPS.
A 200% Dragon's Fang (.76s) will also reach a .5s reload, for 52% turbo, but its still worthless.
A 100% Black Spitter (4.2s) will reach as low as 2.5s reload, for 66% turbo, and will maintain that minimal relaod time from 85%-125% quality.
A 100% Prototype Z 9 (2.2s) will reach as low as 1.5s relaod, for 46% turbo, very high qualities (161%+) can reach down to a 1 second relaod though, and achieve up to 70% turbo.
Most importantly: any 1.X second reload PL can at best achieve (reload - 1)% Turbo. Those that reload faster than 1 second need enough turbo to reach .5 seconds or they will relaod at 1 second.

Missiles all have relatively high reloads and thus can all reach atleast 50% turbo, with the exact amount dependant on actual quality/reload. The right quality Caster and Wrath can actually reach the exact turbo cap.
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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1325113504' post='50475']
Is there a DEV/BETA server or sector still? Make it PVP and let the warrior classes fight it out and see what happens.
Stand toe to toe and fight use your skills, then do it again to win use all the skills you have at your disposal. JD Combat cloak and shoot, cloak shoot. etc etc etc

Compile the data then adjust. (I know sounds simpler then it is especially with only two coders, I know)

You/we may not learn any thing but it sure would be exciting :)

Phorlaug
[/quote]
/agree :)
Though I'd rather see large groups of warriors going at it to see how the PW fairs in the mix. Such as guild war arena battles with a ranking system :D (just use and adjust arena only load-outs for balancing issues).
...alright, let the killjoy flames begin ;)
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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1325146503' post='50549']
That JE is VERY well equipped, you have 3 of the 4 most powerful beams a JE can use. (Only the Distortion Array is missing, you'd have to replace the DG to get more firepower out of your JE) Are those the 6 best PLs a PW can use? Also don't forget that mobs cannot resist skills as of yet. When they learn to do so, Shield Sap/Shield Leech will no longer be as reliable for DPS. Don't forget to include that the PW gets 70% criticals for max critical targeting skill, plus whatever buffs to criticals are equipped. If your DG is 200% quality you should get just under 30% critical hits on your JE absent other buffs. That big difference in critical hit percentage will make the PW's damage numbers bigger since critical hits do 2X damage. Also what's the PW's DPS when the JE debuffs the mob, since that's how they should work together? The Chim debuff increases the damage for anyone shooting the mob with plasma.
[/quote]
Here is what my JE has equiped for weapons:

156% GoD, 200% MTL, and 200% DG.

Needless to say I to have heard the kill message many times over PW's and TE's alike. Jones did you also take combat cloak into account? I don't remember seeing that in your post.
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[quote name='HellHas' timestamp='1325210734' post='50585']
Here is what my JE has equiped for weapons:

156% GoD, 200% MTL, and 200% DG.

Needless to say I to have heard the kill message many times over PW's and TE's alike. Jones did you also take combat cloak into account? I don't remember seeing that in your post.
[/quote]

Combat cloak doubles the unmodified base damage of a weapon for 5-10 seconds. (10 sec if you have improved cloaking buff) It doesn't fully double a Jenquai's damage output. Description in ScreenShot below.

[IMG]http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/Terrell_072/ScreenShot166.jpg[/IMG]

Are you ungrouped when this is happening? (Group bonus from a JW increased your critical hits chance, Rally from a TW also does this, which would increase your DPS)

Are the warriors in question using plasma damage? If not it's possible that the mobs are resistant to the damage the warriors are using compared to the type of damage you're using.

Did either you or the warriors have a head start attacking the mob in question? If so, how much?

The point of saying you've got the almost the most powerful weapons your class can use, is to ask is the warrior also using nearly the most powerful weapon combo he can use? If not this could be the problem.

Same would apply to how much turbo you're carrying vs the people whom you're outdamaging. (and is the other toon's turbo bugged in any way that's costing them DPS)

Did the warriors in question max their critical targeting skill? Critical hits do 2X damage, without the warrior having to do anything other than fire his guns and roll a crit. [b] That also apparently wasn't given in Jones' calculations. [/b]

In calculating the PW's damage you need to include that at least 70% of his hits are going to do double damage, from maxing his critical targeting skill, plus whatever bonuses to crits he's getting from equipment. The TW is going to get 50% criticals from his critical targeting skill, plus whatever percentage he gets from his Rally skill (Rally improves critical targeting among other things), and whatever items that the TW has that will increase his critical hit chance. JE can get a little under 3 out of 10 shots as criticals with a 200% DG, not sure how much the GoD gets, haven't had one since Live but they are both equip buffs so they should not stack.

Either way the warriors should be getting signficiantly more double damage hits than the JE.
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Even in a full group decked out with all the buffs that one can get... A JE should never get the kill message over warriors. No matter what the circumstances are. That is if the warriors are trying as hard as the JE in question. Edited by HellHas
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[quote name='HellHas' timestamp='1325220754' post='50605']
Even in a full group decked out with all the buffs that one can get... A JE should never get the kill message over warriors. No matter what the circumstances are. That is if the warriors are trying as hard as the JE in question.
[/quote]

Really, if the mob is immune to impact and the PW is using impact while the JE is using Plasma, are you saying that the PW should still win? What about a L150 JE killing the same mob as a L75 PW? (you did say no matter the circumstances, when those should be considered)

You're assuming that the JE is making the most damage when getting the message. That may not be the case it could be that your group got the most damage compared to other groups. If your group has open looting rights, you should be able to loot provided your group got the majority of the damage even if you didn't contribute the most. If your group has round-robin looting, then whether or not you get the looting rights to a kill that your group made, with your contribution, depends on whether or not it's your turn.

The only way to test for sure, is one on one, both players ungrouped, with as many possible variables held constant.
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