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Projectiles and Missiles.


Bovyne

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Ok this is just my feeling, it not from high level, but from my leveling experience in not wanting a lot of different ammo or the different weapons (ie much easier if all the same type). I do not like the way ,missiles and projectiles work. it might be true that all weapons and missiles now need their own launchers, but I am not sure for a game it is a good mechanism.

For me it makes getting separate launchers and using them difficult you have to have /make the separate ammo/missiles for each type of launcher you have, if you have 6 different ones? It just seems a little too clunky for me.

Ideas! (ps ammo also means missiles though still less missile to ammo kind athing0

A lot of games have ammo holders such as a quiver for arrows! well maybe a type of container that fits a ship slot for ammo? Hold so much, each new level hold more, can hold different types of ammo (maybe from 1 to whatever max device?) Maybe if can not make a slot make it a device?
Or could make a container than takes up 8-16 slots but holds at least double the amount of ammo eg if 8 slots taken , this ammo bag holds 16?

Another would be to change the way ammo and launchers work. All launchers could launch any ammo, ammo would improved by level and type , like plasma, chemical etc, so would not need to swap launcher but ammo (not both like now). Launcher though would be restricted to level of ammo, higher launcher needing higher level ammo, but this would mean if you found a loot drop (of that level) and had a nice buff you could just swap it in and not need to make separate new ammo. To make launcher different or better could just use delay to reload, energy cost, the amount of rounds fired per shot or give them a slight modifier *1 being normal 1.2 being improved?

Basically just to make it slightly less hassle to have launchers that fire different ammo and make having different guns more appealing? Edited by Bovyne
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[quote name='Bovyne' timestamp='1321901459' post='48782']
Ok this is just my feeling, it not from high level, but from my leveling experience in not wanting a lot of different ammo or the different weapons (ie much easier if all the same type). I do not like the way ,missiles and projectiles work. it might be true that all weapons and missiles now need their own launchers, but I am not sure for a game it is a good mechanism.

For me it makes getting separate launchers and using them difficult you have to have /make the separate ammo/missiles for each type of launcher you have, if you have 6 different ones? It just seems a little too clunky for me.

Ideas! (ps ammo also means missiles though still less missile to ammo kind athing0

A lot of games have ammo holders such as a quiver for arrows! well maybe a type of container that fits a ship slot for ammo? Hold so much, each new level hold more, can hold different types of ammo (maybe from 1 to whatever max device?) Maybe if can not make a slot make it a device?
Or could make a container than takes up 8-16 slots but holds at least double the amount of ammo eg if 8 slots taken , this ammo bag holds 16?

Another would be to change the way ammo and launchers work. All launchers could launch any ammo, ammo would improved by level and type , like plasma, chemical etc, so would not need to swap launcher but ammo (not both like now). Launcher though would be restricted to level of ammo, higher launcher needing higher level ammo, but this would mean if you found a loot drop (of that level) and had a nice buff you could just swap it in and not need to make separate new ammo. To make launcher different or better could just use delay to reload, energy cost, the amount of rounds fired per shot or give them a slight modifier *1 being normal 1.2 being improved?

Basically just to make it slightly less hassle to have launchers that fire different ammo and make having different guns more appealing?
[/quote]

I sort of see what you are saying. For a PW having 6 weapon slots can get confusing, but.... After a while it comes as second nature to you. Remember that this games weapons systems design (although not modern) is what many other games that came after try to emulate. Going out with a mix of ammo for solo play is the best of both worlds. Plasma, Chemical and impact ammo in different weapons makes the PW a very powerful character to play. In group play ask your group leader what you are going to go hunt and you can equip your ammo accordingly. It is a pretty complex system but for basic fighting Chem and plasma usually handle most mobs. Taking away the mob's shields and hull.
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Different weapons have different buffs. All the variety available allows for different styles of gameplay, and most weapon systems allow for more than one type of ammo to be fired. My only issue is that the classes that need to carry loads of ammo should have more hull space. To not give those classes (I'm thinking PW/PS in particular) an advantage in trade, simply make the extra hull space ammo only.
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[quote name='Vitaes' timestamp='1321927298' post='48790']
Different weapons have different buffs. All the variety available allows for different styles of gameplay, and most weapon systems allow for more than one type of ammo to be fired. My only issue is that the classes that need to carry loads of ammo should have more hull space. To not give those classes (I'm thinking PW/PS in particular) an advantage in trade, simply make the extra hull space ammo only.
[/quote]
It does make the task of managing inventory a bit more cumbersome, but if you load up correctly, you can make the ammo run out as you fill up with loot...
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I am not sure i explained myself well, you would still be able to find ammo and print it, and launchers and print them. You can still load different ammo to different slots, ie shot chem/plasma or impact/chem or different type for each gun! You just would not have to find chem round for this gun, them a chem round for that gun extra.

You could have rare ammo, rare launchers it just would not be linked to each other.

Certainly just having a "quiver " type thing might help most. But I would still prefer that ammo and launchers where a little bit more simplistic even if it only this lunches all impact ammo, this one chemical etc, though i would prefer that launchers can launch any ammo, specially if player made cos surely a player could make ammo to fit any launcher? I like a mix and match system.

I agree that it works as is, and some might like it that way, but that does not mean changing would not make it better? Edited by Bovyne
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  • 2 weeks later...
I'm gonna have to agree with shadow80fs on this one. The main problem with ammo is that, to stay in the field long enough to turn a profit on hunting, you often have to carry an obscene amount of ammunition. This is particularly true with progen, as projectile launchers eat through ammo stacks much faster than missiles, and beams don't have ammo to speak of.

Progen Sentinels have it [i]particularly[/i] bad because they can't build weapons (and thus, can't make their own ammo), which is probably a big contributor to why nobody plays 'em much. Not only do they have to carry a lot to keep those four guns firing, but they also have to fill up a lot of their vault space with ammo, too.

Juggling ammo types for different hunting expectations sucks, but it's not too bad. The real problem is that ammo stacks can eat up half the inventory of a progen and they still run out in less than an hour. Simply increasing the stack size for all ammo (or at least projectile launcher ammo), would alleviate almost all of their problems.
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There are three ways to talk about this...

1) Alot of people out there use a muiltibox program on here allowing them to play more then one character at a time. Most people on here have a trader class with them during combat just to haul ammo. For me and others I do not use this program when I play the game, I just stick to default.

2. It would be awesome if there was an npc in the game that we could talk to and put our ammo in crates. What I mean is talk to the npc ask him to compress your ammo into a crate. Example you have 5 stacks of 710 (3550 rounds) slime ball ammo to convert into 1 ammo crate. The crate it would say something like "Five stacks of Slime Ball ammo, right click to unload *Note: Player must have required inventory space to use otherwise load will fail.*

3) The Dev's could also just double the stack of ammo in the game.

Lv. 1 Missiles Ammo is 50 it could be raised too 100
Lv. 2 Missiles Ammo is 80 it could be raised too 160 (prototype missiles is a stack of 650)
Lv. 3 Missiles Ammo is 100 it could be raised too 200
Lv. 4 Missiles Ammo is 130 it could be raised too 260
Lv. 5 Missiles Ammo is 150 it could be raised too 300
Lv. 6 Missiles Ammo is 180 it could be raised too 360
Lv. 7 Missiles Ammo is 140-200/ rage = 300 it could be raised too 400/ rage = 600 (Miner's Fury is great at 600)
Lv. 8 Missiles Ammo is 230 it could be raised too 470
Lv. 9 Most of this ammo is okay, except for Zet's & Smiter's they would be the only two needing to be doubled


Lv. 1 Projectile Ammo for Progen is 300 it could be raised too 600 & Lv. 1 Projectile Ammo for Terran/Jenqai is 200 it could be raised too 400.
Lv. 2 Projectile Ammo for Progen is 300 it could be raised too 600 & Lv. 1 Projectile Ammo for Terran/Jenqai is 200 it could be raised too 400. (prototype projectile ammo is a stack of 1,000).
Lv. 3 Projectile Ammo is 400 it could be raised too 800.
Lv. 4 Projectile Ammo is 500-700 it could be raised too 1,000.
Lv. 5 Projectile Ammo is 600 it could be raised too 1,200.
Lv. 6 Projectile Ammo is 700 it could be raised too 1,400.
Lv. 7 Projectile Ammo is 600-800 it could be raised too 1650. (Flechette ammo is fine at 1450, Slime Balls is 710 raise to 1,420)
Lv. 8 Projectile Ammo is 900-1,000 it could be raised too 1,800. (Ichor Balls are 810 raise to 1,620 Dark Matter Sludge & Dragon Fang's are fine, Dark Matter Fluid should be 1,000)
Lv. 9 No change needed Edited by Drifter
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[quote name='Noxmire' timestamp='1322932026' post='49157']
I'm gonna have to agree with shadow80fs on this one. The main problem with ammo is that, to stay in the field long enough to turn a profit on hunting, you often have to carry an obscene amount of ammunition. This is particularly true with progen, as projectile launchers eat through ammo stacks much faster than missiles, and beams don't have ammo to speak of.

Progen Sentinels have it [i]particularly[/i] bad because they can't build weapons (and thus, can't make their own ammo), which is probably a big contributor to why nobody plays 'em much. Not only do they have to carry a lot to keep those four guns firing, but they also have to fill up a lot of their vault space with ammo, too.

Juggling ammo types for different hunting expectations sucks, but it's not too bad. The real problem is that ammo stacks can eat up half the inventory of a progen and they still run out in less than an hour. Simply increasing the stack size for all ammo (or at least projectile launcher ammo), would alleviate almost all of their problems.
[/quote]

Agree with this, the Terran Scout likely feels the same, since they cannot build ammo either. Scouts do have 5 spaces more inventory than a Sentinel of the same level but they also have to use plenty of space for ammo.

Now there could be Mission rewards that allow Scouts/Sentinels to build a few specific types of ammo in a pinch much like the Archos Threader that PEs could use in Live. The Archos Threader was an MCP reward, perhaps a Zet threader could be added for the Scout. There could possibly be 4 or 5 other types of ammo commonly used by explorers that have devices, to make it a little easier on them, but not too many.
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This is core game-play and I seriously doubt the Devs would want to change it. I know I would hate to play this game if I was locked into using generic ammo and there is no 'The whole idea behind having different ammo per gun and well as different ammo types is to allow for min/maxing (for those that want to spend the time) vs just doing the basics. There is absolutely zero reason to force all players to just use basics. The original game design allowed players to find out what damage type and weapon would do the most damage vs specific mobs. Most players loved this and it got really cool/required when hunting in Ardus and the Bogeril sectors. :)

Increasing ammo stack size is ludicrous. The stack size was setup by Westwood to force players to make decisions. I mean seriously.....why not make all ammo stack to 20,000 cause i am too lazy to ever have to go make ammo or spend money on comps? Why not just make all weapons like beams in that they auto-create their own ammo from space dust. If you hate dealing with ammo pick a JE....they do the least damage but dont have to worry about ammo. If you like dealing with ammo, and want to do more damage then a JE, then pick a TS. If you want to do the most damage of an explorer class pick a PS.....but guess what....the downside is that you use a lot more ammo and you have a smaller hold. Doncha just love having to decide what tradeoffs will work best for you? I know with the WoW gamestyle most MMO players think there should be no downside to any class and they they should be able to do whatever any other class can do......WoW is a badly designed game for 12 year olds though. E&B is for grownups that realize, just like in life, you have to make decisions that will have consequences. Now if yer really crazy you could be a PS that uses beams. I used to see these players every once in a while. Sure they couldn't kill much but they didn't worry about ammo.....because that was the choice they made.....not what the dev team forced them to choose.

At the moment though there is almost zero reason not to just use plasma (for Jen/Progen) and Explosive for Terrans. Mobs currently are not setup like they were in live. The resist % per damage type are not close to what they were in live, I doubt the devs even care about setting this until they have all skills, weapons, and mobs functioning as they were in live. Even spending any time working on mob resist % before these features are code locked would just be wasted time. Yes you can get a little more damage on some mobs by using energy or impact but the difference atm is minimal and will cost you if you like hunting different mobs.

As for Explorers guess what....they can't make their own ammo. :P This is the downside of playing an explorer class. The upside is they can mine. If yer out mining just carry the plasma/explosive ammo in your guns. Yes you will need to return to base before you can switch to 'full combat mode' but that's intended. There is no class in the game that has all positives and no negatives. It is a balance. As such at no point should explorers ever be allowed to make ammo. If they can then I want my warriors to be able to mine. However since this is an MMO there are two choice available: Group with other players that can assist you with making ammo/carrying ammo or make a secondary toon that can do this for you. In either case this is the basic design of the game. Learn to love it.....or you know.....find another game that doesn't require players to accept (and have to deal with) tradeoffs based on class decisions. :D
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[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1323465230' post='49449']
There is no class in the game that has all positives and no negatives. It is a balance. As such at no point should explorers ever be allowed to make ammo. If they can then I want my warriors to be able to mine. However since this is an MMO there are two choice available: Group with other players that can assist you with making ammo/carrying ammo or make a secondary toon that can do this for you. In either case this is the basic design of the game. Learn to love it.....or you know.....find another game that doesn't require players to accept (and have to deal with) tradeoffs based on class decisions. :D
[/quote]

Crichton, while I agree half your post, allowing TS and PS to make their own ammo doesn't suddenly turn them into a war machine or give them "all positives and no negatives". They'd still be the weakest at combat. They'd still be unable to build components or repair shields. They'd still be rarely needed on raids. Do you really think that, given the ability to make their own ammo, everyone would abandon all the other classes to jump to TS/PS, as they would have no weaknesses? :D

This is not one of those tradeoffs you make such as, "if I play an explorer, I'm not going to be very good at combat". Instead, it's just an annoying, non-fun part of the game. "If I play an TS/PS, I sign myself up for a big PITA logistical problem." A good designer doesn't level the classes by making them less fun to play. (And I think the original designers even realized that they made a mistake with the PS, given the Archos ammo device.)

My original main is a PS, and I gave up on leveling combat once I hit 135. It just wasn't worth flying halfway across the galaxy every time I needed ammo. There's probably a lot of L135 PS out there. :)
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Terrell had a very good response ts/ps having the build weapon skill [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/6087-ts-builds/"]here[/url]. I also see where Bovyne is coming from. However, unlike fantasy games with arrows (which is easy to visualize you picking up your magic arrows, fire arrows or whatever) we are dealing with missile/projectile launching systems. Not all missiles have the same specs, not all launchers are made the same. What if that missile you were trying to cram in there got stuck and ruined your launcher? :) That at least is where I see the justification for the system as is.

I am intrigued about the idea of 'crating' ammo so to speak. I think that's a very good idea, but would probably cost a lot to crate, and of course you'd have to uncrate it to use it. I would imagine that if this sort of thing were in the game, it would be very expensive. Still, you could store more ammo in your vault or something. Think of ammo stack sizes as how big a "clip" you have. Some guns have have a 100 bullet magazine, some have 50. That's how I see stack limits in E&B, and honestly a serious consideration when I choose a weapon.

As far as some of the things Drifter mentioned, if there is a problem to be fixed, simply suggesting people multibox isn't really an answer. If anything the reason they do it is due to a fairly low player base right now. Hopefully in the future enough players will be on making multiboxing unnecessary. As far as stack size, that's already been covered and Crichton also brought up some good points as mentioned earlier.

[b]
[/b]
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Hi,

in the OP I was just throwing around ideas, I never said they where either good or bad. Just that the game play at moment felt to me a little clunky. Obviously your not going to have a quiver, it was just an example to get the idea. Crating sounds like a great idea to me. If you don`t want every type of ammo fitting every type of launcher, you could still put in bigger groups, such as say all plasma types, or all chemical I don't see how that would break the fun of it. There are many ways to make it smoother without removing what might be fun, this thread was started to get ideas. AT the moment launchers don't do damage themselves, they just have buffs and change damage by being able to fire multiple rounds, I do not see how allowing them to fire more types of ammo would really change much other than you might be more likely to try different launchers more and allow slightly more leeway? Most things are in RL size related, if you can make something the same size so it fits it would probably work. Hence could be just PM made ammo that fits more launchers?

Just ideas, least one good one so far with crating.
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[quote name='Bovyne' timestamp='1323601421' post='49567']
Hi,

in the OP I was just throwing around ideas, I never said they where either good or bad. Just that the game play at moment felt to me a little clunky. Obviously your not going to have a quiver, it was just an example to get the idea. Crating sounds like a great idea to me. If you don`t want every type of ammo fitting every type of launcher, you could still put in bigger groups, such as say all plasma types, or all chemical I don't see how that would break the fun of it. There are many ways to make it smoother without removing what might be fun, this thread was started to get ideas. AT the moment launchers don't do damage themselves, they just have buffs and change damage by being able to fire multiple rounds, I do not see how allowing them to fire more types of ammo would really change much other than you might be more likely to try different launchers more and allow slightly more leeway? Most things are in RL size related, if you can make something the same size so it fits it would probably work. Hence could be just PM made ammo that fits more launchers?

Just ideas, least one good one so far with crating.
[/quote]

Are you saying that In your RL example of weapon size and saying that it does not matter that they should be made to shoot all? or most? ammo types.

I look at it like this;

[i]I have an Uzi and a grenade launcher, I would never think my little old Uzi would ever be able to fire off the grenades or the grenade launcher could load up a clip of Uzi ammo. [/i]

Different weapons for different tasks results in different ammo for those different weapons for those different tasks.


As a side note I remember in live (may still be the rule in the EMU) that you swap out any of the weapons/ammo that was taken from Tengu. My point is it is a very well thought out system of weapons/ammo/mobs and damage for ammo types. It would be different if the game were being written from scratch, but this system (well hopefully sooner than later) the whole weapon/ammo/mobs makes sense and when working correctly needs no major or even minor tweaks.


My 2 credits worth.
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One item that people may be missing is that TS and PS don't have to use player made ammo. OMP has a ton of 100% ammo that can be used. I had several PS's that would load up a few rows of 100% ammo in their vault just in case they didn't want to have to fly back to Joves/F7 to get more ammo made. Sure, it does less damage than PM ammo but it is available. And just to be clear it would not be a 'Make Ammo' skill...it would be 'Build Weapons'.

Is there really a problem even getting ammo made in the EMU? F7 almost always has several builders that can make most/the majority of ammo. I suppose if explorers are consistently finding they are unable to get ammo made, and they cannot buy 100% ammo from OMP, then you could just stock up on ammo when builders are on...like during the weekend (I made 130 stacks of ogun ammo for a player once......which I thought was crazy but I think it lasted him a decent amount of time). Is it really that difficult in an MMO to meet other players, join a guild, make friends, and/or work together to meet each others needs/goals? This is not a single player game and there are decisions that players must choose to make.

Additionally just because a warrior/trader has a Build Weapon skill it does not mean they put points into. Do you really want another skill that you would put points into in place of key skills (the TS will have a couple of its skills changed from 5 to 7 at some point)? That would just annoy me. I know I only have two of my 5 toons, that have Build Weapons, actually with points in that skill. BTW, I don't recall the ARCHO ammo builder device being in live. I think it was added by the EMU devs.....not sure why though.

Seriously, I can't see why warrior's shouldn't be able to prospect if explorers can build weapons. Why should 3 classes get a skill only available to traders/warriors without these classes getting the same benefit going the other way?
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