Jump to content

PvP


Recommended Posts

Did I read on one of the forums that PvP was being actively worked on for EnB? Not to start a flame war but..... seems there are sooo many other issues that need to be addressed before PvP is even looked at. And is this something that needs to be added to EnB at all? I can understand the arena area as in live. But again this should take a back burner to say... server crashes, lag issues, lost players, mission bugs, no missions, higher player content, mobs or lack of mobs, loot tables, devices functioning as intended, weapons functioning, graphics being limited due to overhead issues ie. 1 shot shown for a 6 shot weapon, jobs, job terminals, and a ton-o-other issues. Not to mention there will have to be a total restructuring of the combat as there are some races that would make PvP very one sided. As it is now it would be who has the most uber shields/reactors/weapons is the winner.

foodcha.gif

  • Downvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Arena's are one thing, but PVP in EnB would ruin the game. I like others think the bugs we have now should be addressed before arena, and PVP should not be discussed at all.

  • Downvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Other than the arena, PvP has *NO PLACE* in Earth & Beyond. PvP has poisoned many games and brings on an entire set of balance issues that are just not needed. PvP causes more whining when one class has a small advantage or people are too lazy to learn how to use thieir abilities to the fullest. Some classes are supposed to be better at combat than others. Going PvP would require nerfing warrior classes or super-charging explorer classes. Rather than having strengths & weaknesses that can be offset by grouping with members of different races & classes, we would all become rather similar in our abilities. Acquiring uber gear should make one's life easier, not be the thin edge that determines survival. There are plenty of games that feature PvP out there. Even World of Warcraft™ recognized that not everyone is into PvP, and have servers where people can opt out of that entirely.

The ENTIRE PREMISE of this game is about working together and helping each other out. It's about having fun, socializing, and sharing information. This is not about capturing territory & building empires. While personal power & fortunes can indeed be amassed, they enable generosity, rather than having to be carefully guarded against all comers. While friendly competitions can be fun (who can get to x level, who can amass y credits first, who can get a specific amount of a type of ore mined first, etc), they do not generally create ill will between players.

If a large chunk of the players want a PvP server, then they can wait until we get PvE straightend (?spelling?) out. Without the PvE part of the game working properly, there will be no dev time to work on PvP. Realize that we're in ALPHA testing now. We haven't even gotten everything working yet. Any work on PvP would probably have to come *AFTER* the game goes live, which will be after Beta, and possibly Gamma testing! Other than the Arena, don't expect to see PvP anytime soon.

I don't know what the dev's tentative schedules for implimentation of different aspects are, but their work on new stuff gets pushed aside every time they have to fix a problem. They're having to re-create everything from scratch. They're having to spend time to develop tools to deal with issues. This is a learning process for everyone. Be patient, because these developers are working FOR FREE. Because of donations from people, the only benefit they get is they're no longer having to pay for the direct costs of running the server [electricity, bandwidth, hardware, backup media, etc]. Their time is very valueable & under-appreciated.

  • Downvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did I read on one of the forums that PvP was being actively worked on for EnB?

PvP? Greatly looking forward to it. I do believe that if EnB had continued, that Westwood would have introduced PvP in some fashion like nearly every other mmorpg has done. It’s a lot of fun… of course there are always people that don’t like the idea of others having different fun than what they enjoy even if it doesn’t effect them in any way. Rather strange, I mean PvP systems are always set up to not effect the coop/solo-only player at all, but there are always “you cant do that” people. Maybe it’s just some form of human nature they deal with.

Anyway, sounds great. I like to play faction PvP (can only battle the other faction) and had even led a dedicated role-play PvP guild for a couple years. We belonged to an organization of guilds of the same nature with about 400 players in total. We were very strict on rules for RP and PvP. That was such a blast, old days of UO, even had GM‘s and Seers playing with us and helping to organize, fun fun. Would love to see/participate in a factional pvp dedicated EnB server some day, EnB would be excellent for that.

Anyway, what was one of the arguments? Needs to be done later or something? Helloooooo…. This isn’t a funded company with a budget, it’s a community project. Last I checked they weren’t even allowing more people to join any longer, like peeps like me with dev talent/exp. If they are in danger of missing a milestone because of working on multiple things, well they just take more volunteers.

Other than the arena, PvP has *NO PLACE* in Earth & Beyond. PvP has poisoned many games and brings on an entire set of balance issues that are just not needed.

You mean like WoW, Guildwars or CoH? OH YEAH those games are absolute junk destroyed by PvP systems hehe. Just boggles the mind.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with what fragbait said and just wanted to add..... The only reason the arena was even introduced to this game was due to the devs caving in to the minority of whiners on the forums when this game was live. The same devs also stated that there was no way to balance this game for pvp due to the large difference in skills and abilities, some classes got nerfed PVE wise because of whiners on the forums complaining about just how unbalanced this game is for pvp. Now should our devs decide to try and balance this game to make pvp viable that is totally up to them. In the current state pvp is not viable in this game, and would take quite a bit of balancing to make it fair for everyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think why it’s hard to communicate with anti-pvp’rs is because their understanding of it is limited, they never participated and say only the people that want to PvP are the “whiners“ (kettle calling the pot black). The only exp they may have is on some game that imposed a limited form of PvP that allowed griefing of non-pvp players in some way. Arena, open or dueling PvP suffers balance issues, but that is less common for faction pvp because it’s predominantly coop-pvp. The people that complain about balance issues are usually the duelers that only play one on one (boring imo). Also, some games have dedicated PvP servers with different rule sets, which I find are always the most fun. But yeah, lets be narrow sighted and kill EnB again.

And saying only a few people like to PvP is incorrect. I’ll show you the list of WoW servers that are dedicated PvP servers and are full up so that you must wait on a list to join the server. What are there (without looking to count) like 30 PvP servers that are full up?

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This game was not built for PvP. Comparing it to games where PvP was a part of the initial design doesn't make sense.

For the player seeking PvP in their gameplay there are plenty of offerings out there. Spending effort to shoehorn it into EnB is not effort well spent, IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This game was not built for PvP. Comparing it to games where PvP was a part of the initial design doesn't make sense.

For the player seeking PvP in their gameplay there are plenty of offerings out there. Spending effort to shoehorn it into EnB is not effort well spent, IMO.

So basically you are telling people that like to PvP to just go away. And in your professional opinion EnB was from the start forever incapable of PvP. My mention of other games was in response to a comment of there only being few people that pvp, so your response to my reply misses the context completely. This thread is sinking into the toilet, why don't you go find another game to play? Lead by example, you know? Done with this topic :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Games have three options for PvP: none, arena, and open-world. If a game is capable of being open-world PvP it is generally designed so from the beginning, so that the various classes can be balanced properly against each other. It's a bad idea to try to make an open-world PvP game out of a game that was not designed for it. E&B was not designed for it. Arena combat is a middle ground--and even in that players will often have skills nerfed or other changes just to balance it out, and requires a lot of time investment.

My opinion is that open-world PvP is impossible for this game without a ground-up rebuilding. And arena is a nice thought but a waste of time until the real game--PvE--is done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having over 20k pvp kills in SWG (8k pre-CU), and over 175k kills total on several WoW toons (lv 80, lv 19/29/39 twinks), including kills not tracked by the system pre-BG's (no honor system so you had to use add-ons to keep track of kills), and after the honor wipe pre-BC. I think i can attest to the fact I am not anti-pvp. Quite the opposite, i enjoy killing pixilated people over and over. However as much as I would like to see pvp in this game, i just don't see it being something constructive.

The whiners i mentioned above were people that would make new threads on it as soon as the old ones were locked, they were the people that would not understand what the devs said when they replied to their threads saying basically the same thing I just said in my above post.

As far as wow pvp foes, and the ammount of servers there. Funny how the pve servers are called Normal, and not pvp. Seems to me that their idea of normal play is pve with the option to pvp if you so choose.

Wow was designed as a PvE game, with PvP on the side (look at the box you bought vanilla in, it'll tell ya there). Then Blizzard figured out a way to keep people playing, over and over...add 3 instances and a horrid honor grind, and players will stay in game for e-z epics. Great marketing strategy for them, no development work and players will stay satisfied a few months with no new content (of course they are now using the same system for running dungeons over and over for badges to get ez-epics in the pve field). Of course now they have the resources to keep pvp and pve content coming in each new expansion or patch, but up to a few months after launch, they still werent sure what they had for themselves.

Blizzard changed their game, to appease everyone. They put a focus on pvp that wasn't there when the game was released, they added an arena system that now dictates class balance, and they made it where the most casual of players doesn't have to do anything but do a few instances a week to get some of the best gear in game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So basically you are telling people that like to PvP to just go away. And in your professional opinion EnB was from the start forever incapable of PvP. My mention of other games was in response to a comment of there only being few people that pvp, so your response to my reply misses the context completely. This thread is sinking into the toilet, why don't you go find another game to play? Lead by example, you know? Done with this topic :mellow:

I'm sure you have your reasons for choosing to take my comments and twist them so severely but it hardly serves your purpose well.

* I didn't tell anyone to "go away".

* I am not a professional game designer so I have no "professional opinion". I *did* play EnB from Beta through to Sunset and I *do* recall the EnB staff sharing with the player community that EnB was *not* designed for PvP - which is why the PvP that was implemented (late) in the game had to be done so via the Arena concept. During Live there was a *very* active forum discussing many things about EnB and the PvP topic was a hot button - so I am positive about the staff telling us that PvP wasn't part of the initial design. What is it that you know about the design of EnB that contradicts this? Please share as I'm sure many would benefit.

* I'm staying put, thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are speaking of EA’s version of EnB, Mneme. This isn’t EA any longer. I brought this topic up last year and it went down basically in flames. It was about developing a PvP faction server at some point, but got bombed by people saying that having a dedicated PvP server apart from this server would somehow destroy EnB. How much they hated PvP etc.

I didn’t twist a thing, Jarod. The implication was that there were “other games out there“. Lets not play coy. I play PvP and PvE, usually not with same characters or same server. I have no interest in robbing you of your choices. As for my exp, I choose not to say. My forum profile mentions enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh really? Funny, considering how everything I'm seeing so far looks like a skeletal version of the exact same game I played then. Same skills. Same locations. Same quests. Hell, same stats on the items, as far as I remember. I'm sure they very well could discard all that and make their own game out of E&B, but then it wouldn't be E&B anymore would it? Why would they want to?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I looked for the message that had the Dev saying he/she was promoting Kenu to a head Dev, and he/she was going to spend his/her time developing the PvP aspect of the game. It seems that this post has gone the way of players doing their HU :mellow:.

I brought this up as an FYI, I even stated not to turn it into a flame war.

I have played PvP, and it is fun (mostly when you don't loose ALL of the time).

POTBS has red zones, Ryzom has the best areas for mats as PvP (spoiled that for me) yes I could choose not to PvP but to get the better mats you had to make yourself a target, not only did I have to avoid massive mobs, but kids looking for a kill.

EnB could be PvP but it would NOT I repeat NOT be the EnB we are all missing. It may be better but if that is the case I suggest the Devs stop trying to make it like it was, speed up the fixes to whatever they want and get on with it. But there is sooooooo many many more issues imo that PvP should not even be considered until the basics have been worked out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are speaking of EA’s version of EnB, Mneme. This isn’t EA any longer. I brought this topic up last year and it went down basically in flames. It was about developing a PvP faction server at some point, but got bombed by people saying that having a dedicated PvP server apart from this server would somehow destroy EnB. How much they hated PvP etc.

I didn’t twist a thing, Jarod. The implication was that there were “other games out there“. Lets not play coy. I play PvP and PvE, usually not with same characters or same server. I have no interest in robbing you of your choices. As for my exp, I choose not to say. My forum profile mentions enough.

I'm not being coy - I don't know how I could have been more clear in saying that there are other games out there where PvP was a part of the design concept from the get-go. As such they deliver a more robust PvP experience for the players that want/need that.

Just because EA isn't part of this effort (and EA really had nothing to do with the design of EnB, that was Westwood) doesn't mean we aren't saddled with many of the original design decisions (both good and bad). How many other suggestions have been made but then been declared probably too difficult to do as they would require changes to the game client? I'm only being a realist.

BTW, I thought you were "done with this topic"? Probably another example of me doing something wrong again, I :mellow:agine. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know why my name was mentioned here, but we are not focusing our resources on PvP at this time.

We have discussed PvP lately in some off-time, but haven't been focusing on it or working on it.

The bug fixes will come eventually, we have been trying to figure some out and been ironing out others. We have some plans for PvP we will add later, but they are not important at this time. Just wanted to clear that up.

I think the community has better things to do than think about PvP. We all know those arguments never go anywhere. Just let us do our thing. :mellow:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know why my name was mentioned here, but we are not focusing our resources on PvP at this time.

We have discussed PvP lately in some off-time, but haven't been focusing on it or working on it.

The bug fixes will come eventually, we have been trying to figure some out and been ironing out others. We have some plans for PvP we will add later, but they are not important at this time. Just wanted to clear that up.

I think the community has better things to do than think about PvP. We all know those arguments never go anywhere. Just let us do our thing. :P

Sorry, Grats on the promotion at any rate.!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh really? Funny, considering how everything I'm seeing so far looks like a skeletal version of the exact same game I played then. Same skills. Same locations. Same quests. Hell, same stats on the items, as far as I remember. I'm sure they very well could discard all that and make their own game out of E&B, but then it wouldn't be E&B anymore would it? Why would they want to?

Discard what? There was nothing but a client, the server was never released. All that stuff you mentioned and a whole lot more is all server side. The actual client that is installed on your computer does very very little as far as gameplay or content goes. All that stuff was recreated from notes, memory and guesswork. Heck, the first time we logged onto this server, all you could do is propel forwards and backwards in a very broken and odd looking zone... that if you went into certain areas you risked crashing to desktop, and all that had to be set up serverside to even do that! Anything you do, or even target, it needs to execute code from the server (usually scripting).

None of that stuff is handled by the client because it makes everything very unsecured if done so that way, opening the torrent of exploits galore. And yes they are trying to get a general recreation of the classic game, but then if EnB were still around today, how much of the old classic look and feel would still be in the game now? In comparison to how most mmog's change over time, probably very little like it once was. So you ask yourself why do you play, is it for nostalgia or because it's a game you liked to play and want to see it continue on. Because if you want it to continue on, then it will change over time and develop into a better game than is once was. But if one only plays for nostalgia, or if all do, than the game will die off.

I'm not worried about the added PvP element, it's been said before that PvP will be added here. The debate is over, it's just a matter if discussing how to do it. But as was mentioned, the arguments go no where. But hopefully we will one day be able to discuss the system like adults, and try to form something that everyone will be happy with, because I know that can be accomplished.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PVP could be fun but it wouldn't really be fair against the races we play now. Take the RD base for example, soon as it spawns it's dead really quick. What if players could pilot those red dragon ships. Say the base gets attacked, you then get a message saying the base is being attacked and do you want to help defend it. Accept and your one of the rd pilots going against the players.

Or when you log in theres a button for rd pilot, then the server put you somewhere to patrol, no doing trade runs or leveling your rd, and your confined to your area, no going to the starter sector to blow up newbs, of course you probably couldn't make it there anyway cause you would get blown up by a player. Im just throwing around ideas, think it would be fun to pilot a rd ship to add some pvp to the mix even if you die alot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PVP could be fun but it wouldn't really be fair against the races we play now. Take the RD base for example, soon as it spawns it's dead really quick. What if players could pilot those red dragon ships. Say the base gets attacked, you then get a message saying the base is being attacked and do you want to help defend it. Accept and your one of the rd pilots going against the players.

Or when you log in theres a button for rd pilot, then the server put you somewhere to patrol, no doing trade runs or leveling your rd, and your confined to your area, no going to the starter sector to blow up newbs, of course you probably couldn't make it there anyway cause you would get blown up by a player. Im just throwing around ideas, think it would be fun to pilot a rd ship to add some pvp to the mix even if you die alot.

Now THAT is an idea that is worth looking into. I want to be a Ten-Gu, or a V'rix. PvP in that situation would be great and very close to the PvP in Potbs. Instead of red zones, when you go to a Red dragon, Ten-gu, or v'rix held area you know it is going to be a challenge. One does not go there (usually) as a lvl 10.

Nice idea, good thinking. And I would hope the devs think so as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh yeah, you mean like LOTRO, where you just jump into an orc or troll etc. Starts you out at an appropriate level and you just add in the perks as you gain points. Something like that, it's been a while.

I like faction pvp where you capture bases etc. Just like all the mmofps's do, or the battlefield series games. When you cap all the cp's in the area, you control the area/region. In such a game, capturing a region can modify the rules for that area, like discounts on trade supplies or access to maybe wormholes that take you to further reaches of space faster. Anything can be scripted really. Even what was brought up earlier about balance issues, those corrections can be made for PvP apart from PvM, all depending on who you are targeting. Though faction pvp doesn't rely on balance so much, but on team work. Solo/1on1 pvp is boring imo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...