Should I drop my PW?

[October]

I played back in 2004 on galileo. I've been watching enb emu grow over the years and now have decided to jump back in.

I made a PW because thats what I had (and loved) when i played on live.

But i've come across some distressful stuff, like the PW isn't the dps king anymore?

So i'll ask you guys the question:

What is the best mob owning class in the game (that utilizes turbo's too! I hear that rof is capped at 1/s)?

I like to solo stuff, =/

[Terrell [BT]]

Ultimately it will be the PW in terms of DPS over time, and the ablity to take damage over time. Balancing isn't done yet.

[October]

but, but.. what about all the nerfs i've read about?

[blattu]

best wat to find out is ...
start killing 8)

[Lot]

Despite the one second reload limitation PWs are still pretty good.

TEs can manage fights pretty well & JDs do the best DPS but need effort to adapt to their tricky play style.

PPs are pretty good solo as well but you need to figure out the best way to get the highest deflects which will need activated buffs from unobtainium devices unless you can scrounge them from someone e.g Puks, Wyverns, Zaltys Prides (it's also a nuisance reapplying the buffs every few minutes). But you can make do without them.

Why not try them all.

[Tienbau]

If everyone drops their PW's because they aren't doing enough damage/get killed to easily the chances of them ever being fixed drops quite a bit. We're struggling to achieve that subtle balance (without the super powers like the broken shield sap that gave infinite shields).

If there's something wrong, you can either throw all your toys out the pram and do an attention seeking 'gone 4 evar' post, or, more usefully, come up with a few quantitive changes and offer to work with one of the devs to fine tune the PW.

If we didn't love the project we wouldn't be bothering to work on it, sure all the classes need some lovin, but we also need help as we're all spread a bit thin.

I know it seems like there hasn't been much progress for the last couple of months but we've been mostly working on expanding systems to handle new stuff that's been needed, and also re-working some of the old stuff that was rushed to finish in order to get something for people to use.

[blattu]

some of us want it done now
some of us will wait untill its done
my own pw is just ol 102 and i enjoy playing him (tard)
he does ok and when all is fixed he will rock
i wont quit the game

[tredway]

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1319937568' post='47802']
If everyone drops their PW's because they aren't doing enough damage/get killed to easily the chances of them ever being fixed drops quite a bit. We're struggling to achieve that subtle balance (without the super powers like the broken shield sap that gave infinite shields).

If there's something wrong, you can either throw all your toys out the pram and do an attention seeking 'gone 4 evar' post, or, more usefully, come up with a few quantitive changes and offer to work with one of the devs to fine tune the PW.

If we didn't love the project we wouldn't be bothering to work on it, sure all the classes need some lovin, but we also need help as we're all spread a bit thin.

I know it seems like there hasn't been much progress for the last couple of months but we've been mostly working on expanding systems to handle new stuff that's been needed, and also re-working some of the old stuff that was rushed to finish in order to get something for people to use.
[/quote]

Aye... Baby steps folks, good things to come, from hard work of dedicated few free time.

[BrixunMortar]

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1319937568' post='47802']
If everyone drops their PW's because they aren't doing enough damage/get killed to easily the chances of them ever being fixed drops quite a bit. We're struggling to achieve that subtle balance (without the super powers like the broken shield sap that gave infinite shields).

If there's something wrong, you can either throw all your toys out the pram and do an attention seeking 'gone 4 evar' post, or, more usefully, come up with a few quantitive changes and offer to work with one of the devs to fine tune the PW.

If we didn't love the project we wouldn't be bothering to work on it, sure all the classes need some lovin, but we also need help as we're all spread a bit thin.

I know it seems like there hasn't been much progress for the last couple of months but we've been mostly working on expanding systems to handle new stuff that's been needed, and also re-working some of the old stuff that was rushed to finish in order to get something for people to use.

[/quote]
the nerfing of the progen has been mentioned a lot of times TB! even a je can keep up now tho can't stand the onslaught! but that causes more problems as the pw can't hold the agro as it should! i've stepped away from the game for the time being as i only play a pw and its worthless now! if u want a tester i'll reinstall the game and run whichever tests u want but this class is useless at the moment

[Redd]

[quote name='BrixunMortar' timestamp='1319980349' post='47814']
the nerfing of the progen has been mentioned a lot of times TB! even a je can keep up now tho can't stand the onslaught! but that causes more problems as the pw can't hold the agro as it should! i've stepped away from the game for the time being as i only play a pw and its worthless now! if u want a tester i'll reinstall the game and run whichever tests u want but this class is useless at the moment
[/quote]


Yes please do come back in, I'll give you a proper demonstration on how to play your PW and properly as apparently if you think a JE can do a better job at it you are clearly mistaken and ill informed/skilled in PW play. But I thought you left wasnt that the post you made?

Get off this SAP kick, its only downfall is that it doesnt return to group as intended. The 2min residual was Live as well. What is missing is JE/JDs had it on their saps too (assuming they're days will come too). But sap was never a DPS tool and really has no bearing on the PWs current dps either! Gah wasted keystrokes honestly... I'll prove my points in game just say when n where.

[BrixunMortar]

[quote name='Redd' timestamp='1319989115' post='47820']
Yes please do come back in, I'll give you a proper demonstration on how to play your PW and properly as apparently if you think a JE can do a better job at it you are clearly mistaken and ill informed/skilled in PW play. But I thought you left wasnt that the post you made?

Get off this SAP kick, its only downfall is that it doesnt return to group as intended. The 2min residual was Live as well. What is missing is JE/JDs had it on their saps too (assuming they're days will come too). But sap was never a DPS tool and really has no bearing on the PWs current dps either! Gah wasted keystrokes honestly... I'll prove my points in game just say when n where.
[/quote]

redd man if u read my post it says "i'll reinstall the game" lol as for sap it was always dps even in live! but the problem isn't just there! no turbo boost on weapons either! it just seems that the pw is being nerfed to make other classes more useful instead of fixing the other classes!

[Klyde]

I guess maybe my memory is rusty also. Yes, I read the patch notes when the new skills were added, yes, I was playing the game at the time. But, I really don't remember the 2 minute cooldown being there all the way through to sunset. After all, many things were changed shortly after patching into the game, adjustments were always common.

The thing is, until the anger skills work properly to hold agro on the warriors, sap was an excellent stand-in tool. Not to mention the added dps factor. If the tank lost agro he could easily get it back using sap. This is no longer the case, if he loses agro now the other guy that got the agro is dead before it can be pulled back, unless the mob is killed first.
We have lots of things that still don't work properly relating to mobs, and skill useage by them or players. As I understand it there was certain folks who somehow used sap effectively giving themselves god mode with infinite shields, this needed to be fixed! The skill was effectively broken as it did not transfer sapped shields to the group, just the player himself, which caused him to receive too much shield per sap. But, does it really require the 2 minute cooldown to mitigate that exploit? Fixing the problem with group sap would mitigate the returns to the pw.

As to the PW being nerfed to being useless, I don't see it that way, it's still a tank that deals alot of damage and takes it too.

[capybara]

[quote name='Klyde' timestamp='1320000350' post='47824']
I guess maybe my memory is rusty also. Yes, I read the patch notes when the new skills were added, yes, I was playing the game at the time. But, I really don't remember the 2 minute cooldown being there all the way through to sunset. After all, many things were changed shortly after patching into the game, adjustments were always common.
[/quote]

I never played a PW in live, but i did play a max JE and I also don't remember any 2 minute shutdown of sheild sap on my JE... I used it all the time and it was always considered to be a forth weapon, and was vital for toping up the TT's reactors. Of course it was a long time ago, so i could be wrong...

I'm playing a PW now at max level, and the 2 minute shutdown is a very long time to not have a vital skill when you are facing GOBB and his minions, or similar mobs, which is when you need it most... They can kill a full bore PW in a few seconds if your healer has butter on his fingers. I'm still trying to work around this with turning off guns briefly to lose aggro, ect.. i'm still a PW under training, so to speak.

Notwithstanding the need for balancing out the characters, the shutdown is essentually acting as a foolproof hack against a skill that is supposed to work every 15 seconds.... and you can still activate it after that, but all you get is reactor depletion, unless you want to play musical chairs with it, if you are "lucky" enough to be surrounded by hostiles. So what i'm trying to say is it seems like a patch that doesn't fit... I think a better fit might be to extend the recharge time to 20 seconds. Know what i mean?

That said I certainly understand the need to tweek the game, but i think 2 minutes was abit much... Even waiting 15 seconds seems like a long time.

Not meant as a criticm, so much as an opinion from a progen who is grieved at seeing too many good Progen sons dying in a fireball with their fingers frantically hitting their SAP key.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Rojo has linked an original thread where the live game implemented a 2 min timer on shield sap & leech I do believe. Don't have it handy at this very second, but I think it was in the other thread about the August Content Update in General Discussion.

[jrichards]

The two minute timer existed in Live for all classes that used a sap skill.

In Live an an equally geared JD could pull off of an equally geared PW at the start of a fight. Most JD's would wait 5-10 seconds before de-cloaking and blasting away. That, combined with re-cloaking dumping aggro would keep the threat on the PW.

Here are a few things that could be causing a problem for PWs in the EMU vs Live:
1) Other classes attacking right off the bat (this is a game-play issue and not one that should be corrected by the devs...ie: LTP).

2) It appears that Traders are generating aggro just by being a Trader class. If I have my PW start attacking a mob, before my TT/PT, they generally hold aggro....but any additional mob goes after the trader first even if the trader has not used shield recharge. Although shield recharge should draw a huge amount of threat the PWs dps and skills should be able to counter this fairly easily as it did in live. Currently I don't see this happening.

3) Shield Sap and Shield Inversion should generate a fair amount of threat. In Live using Shield Sap was similar to using a Taunt....as long as the mob had shields. Currently it doesn't appear that it generates much additional aggro at all. Shield Inversion was a constant attack and helped hold threat, especially on multiple targets. Currently it just doesn't appear to cause much threat at all.

4) Grav Link in Live caused significant threat as well. I would always start attacks with grav link within a few seconds the mob could not be pulled off by a JD. Using Shield Sap and Shield Inversion it really wasn't difficult to hold threat on several mobs. Currently a Grav Linked mob, that has a few shots dealt by the PW will just jump over to the Trader. This could be due to the Grav Link threat not being high enough or the Trader threat being too high by default.

Keep Playing the PW.....it kicks ass and even though the EMU isn't fully functional you can get around these 'issues' by slightly adjusting your game-play. And keep the devs informed too.



note: I stopped using Anger in Live because the skill's threat was awful compared to the other skills the PW has. It generated a decent amount of initial threat but wasn't worth the skill point cost imo.

[firemann30]

I just wonder one thing. With all the the people that are commenting on the PW being nerfed. You would think that after a while people would say hmmm and stop and say OMG!!! ITs true the PW has been killed. Instead you have the ones that Stand firmed and say oh its your play style and you just don't know how to play that class.



Several times players have suggested and commented on the PW but nothing but to further destroy the class has been done.

All sides need to rationalize and understand.

I have seen several times that a JE has out dps some of the better known PW's in this game. Edited November 1, 2011 by lordfalcon

[virpyre]

All I remember from live is the PW was the best at dispensing devastating damage and taking heavy damage without being disabled. I would see them everywhere blowing something up or helping out a player with SI they were very popular. Right now it seems that you actually need a shield rechargeable & jump-starting class to be in a group for a PW to succeed.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

[quote name='lordfalcon' timestamp='1320121339' post='47890']
I just wonder one thing. With all the the people that are commenting on the PW being nerfed. You would think that after a while people would say hmmm and stop and say OMG!!! ITs true the PW has been killed. Instead you have the ones that Stand firmed and say oh its your play style and you just don't know how to play that class.



Several times players have suggested and commented on the PW but nothing but to further destroy the class has been done.

All sides need to rationalize and understand.

I have seen several times that a JE has out dps some of the better known PW's in this game.
[/quote]

You don't like it, then as Tienbau said make rational suggestions and work with devs. By rational suggestions I don't mean things that return you to soloing level 60+ mobs. To survive encounters of that magnitude, [b]you're going to require[/b] additional assistance. We will work within reason to make the PW what it should be, but only within reason and within balance. They will not receive an Iwin button because "they should be stronger than everyone else". They will however be the highest sustained DPS, whichi s what the design doc calls for. The JD will be the king of instant spike damage, over and above the PW, and the TE will be the middle ground of warriors.

[Terrell [BT]]

Makes perfect sense Kyp, after all there's not much point to support classes if the warriors can finish the epic encounters without the support of traders & explorers.

IMO all classes should be able to do solo combat, against non-raid/non-epic mobs, up to a certain level. The warriors & Progen should be good at this, while the non-warriors should struggle a little in solo combat. What the non-warriors (Scout, Seeker, Tradesman, & Explorer) need, is to each bring a few unique and very useful things that the warriors would not be able to win the epic battle without, as well as being able to bring useful enough things for working in groups with warriors doing day to day hunting.

[kjeron]

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1320182854' post='47917']
You don't like it, then as Tienbau said make rational suggestions and work with devs.
[/quote]

My suggestions for the skill:
[list][*]Remove the damage cap that is based on a mobs maximum Shield capacity. The skill should be able to kill a sufficiently lower level mob outright or drain a lower level hulled-ships shields completely. At least for the single target skills, the Sapping Sphere's maybe shouldn't be able to wipe out groups of mobs in one use though, depends on how close those mobs level would be to the PW's CL. This change would have no affect on mobs with larger shields than the PW.[/list]
[list][*]Increase the damage cap based on the user's Shield Capacity back up to 1/2 (50%). Currently: 4/9 (44.4%). Was originally 50%, same as Shield Leech.[/list]
[list][*]Reduce the cooldown on the 1st Tier skill "Shield Sap". It does not provide any heal, and is entirely inferior to "Shield Transfer". It would give this Tier a use at all levels, with a lower cooldown it could be spammed across more mobs, in exchange for not getting any heal out of them. Suggested: (16 seconds - activation time). Currently: (24 seconds - activation time), same as T2 "Shield Transfer".[/list]
[list][*]Remove the healing cap. With the 2-minute timer, it shouldn't be necessary. The 4th and 5th Tier skills should be able to fully heal the user/group if enough mobs are drained. Would currently require 2.25 mobs per group member for a full heal. Would require 2 mobs per group member if the cap was increased back up to 50%. You can already get the same and better effect by using Shield Transfer/Group Sap first on one or more mob, then the Sapping Sphere on the rest.[/list]
[list][*]Keep the 2-minute immunity timer. Give the following skills their own 2-minute immunity timer as well: Menace, Shield Leech, and Energy Leech.[/list]
[list][*]Display the remaining 2-minute immunity timer, preferably in place of the current cooldown notice, as it was in Live. Move the cooldown timer to the skill icon, similar to an activated equipment's reload timer, hopefully somehow possible to show up properly, including when multiples of the skill are on the skill bar. You should not be able to waste energy and use it on a currently immune mob.[/list]

[tredway]

[quote name='will' timestamp='1320245908' post='47938']
Display the remaining 2-minute immunity timer, preferably in place of the current cooldown notice, as it was in Live. Move the cooldown timer to the skill icon, similar to an activated equipment's reload timer, hopefully somehow possible to show up properly, including when multiples of the skill are on the skill bar. You should not be able to waste energy and use it on a currently immune mob.
[/quote]


Actually in live the activation timer was what was displayed over the skill in the hotbar. The 2min residual timer wasn't displayed. Reason being is you have an activation timer and a residual (immunity)timer. Seeing that you can activate the skill an mobs that have been hit/can be hit still it makes more sense to have had the activation timers over the skills (this was something that was in live that we are lacking here).

Menace didn't have a 2min residual but I believe (and this isnt gospel) they did have some sort of rule that you couldn't chain menace (could be thinking of WoW days) but I think there was an immunity grace period after a mob/player (pvp arena) were menaced they had alike 5-10secs to attempt recover/heal/esacpe etc. Same went as if mob menaced players they couldnt chain menace either but usually if you got hit with a hard menace and werent up to snuff, you'd die taking it up the rear anyways.

As for the rest all good observations and suggestions imo.

[kjeron]

[quote name='RojoMuerte' timestamp='1320248787' post='47939']
Actually in live the activation timer was what was displayed over the skill in the hotbar. The 2min residual timer wasn't displayed. Reason being is you have an activation timer and a residual (immunity)timer. Seeing that you can activate the skill an mobs that have been hit/can be hit still it makes more sense to have had the activation timers over the skills (this was something that was in live that we are lacking here).

Menace didn't have a 2min residual but I believe (and this isnt gospel) they did have some sort of rule that you couldn't chain menace (could be thinking of WoW days) but I think there was an immunity grace period after a mob/player (pvp arena) were menaced they had alike 5-10secs to attempt recover/heal/esacpe etc. Same went as if mob menaced players they couldnt chain menace either but usually if you got hit with a hard menace and werent up to snuff, you'd die taking it up the rear anyways.

As for the rest all good observations and suggestions imo.
[/quote]

I was refering to the current on screen message that says "Cannot use that skill for another XX seconds". That is where I remember seeing the 2-minutes displayed in Live, but I could be wrong. If not, I would still prefer to have it display there based on current target and be prevented from using on such a mob, with the cooldown timer displayed over the skill in the hotbar, and the green ring form around the skill as it activtates.

I know menace wasnt a full 2-minutes, in live it was only 45 seconds and only players got the immunity, the mobs were screwed. I just hated getting menaced, never understand it when games want to tell me I'm afraid.

[Mattsacre]

[quote name='will' timestamp='1320245908' post='47938']
My suggestions for the skill:
[list][*]Remove the damage cap that is based on a mobs maximum Shield capacity. The skill should be able to kill a sufficiently lower level mob outright or drain a lower level hulled-ships shields completely. At least for the single target skills, the Sapping Sphere's maybe shouldn't be able to wipe out groups of mobs in one use though, depends on how close those mobs level would be to the PW's CL. This change would have no affect on mobs with larger shields than the PW.[/list]
[list][*]Increase the damage cap based on the user's Shield Capacity back up to 1/2 (50%). Currently: 4/9 (44.4%). Was originally 50%, same as Shield Leech.[/list]
[list][*]Reduce the cooldown on the 1st Tier skill "Shield Sap". It does not provide any heal, and is entirely inferior to "Shield Transfer". It would give this Tier a use at all levels, with a lower cooldown it could be spammed across more mobs, in exchange for not getting any heal out of them. Suggested: (16 seconds - activation time). Currently: (24 seconds - activation time), same as T2 "Shield Transfer".[/list]
[list][*]Remove the healing cap. With the 2-minute timer, it shouldn't be necessary. The 4th and 5th Tier skills should be able to fully heal the user/group if enough mobs are drained. Would currently require 2.25 mobs per group member for a full heal. Would require 2 mobs per group member if the cap was increased back up to 50%. You can already get the same and better effect by using Shield Transfer/Group Sap first on one or more mob, then the Sapping Sphere on the rest.[/list]
[list][*]Keep the 2-minute immunity timer. Give the following skills their own 2-minute immunity timer as well: Menace, Shield Leech, and Energy Leech.[/list]
[list][*]Display the remaining 2-minute immunity timer, preferably in place of the current cooldown notice, as it was in Live. Move the cooldown timer to the skill icon, similar to an activated equipment's reload timer, hopefully somehow possible to show up properly, including when multiples of the skill are on the skill bar. You should not be able to waste energy and use it on a currently immune mob.[/list]
[/quote]
/sign with one exception: Menace, was spammable live and should remain so now, you can't menace something already menaced, was that way live and should remain so, live it had deminished chance of a second or more hit(s) after you did so the first time. I.E. no perma-menace, they come out of first menace they return to attacking, you attempt to re-menace you can do so, with less chance of it happening than the first time. This don't show in skill doc's because it was altered for arena and balancing shortly after skill introduction.

Menace isn't a "overt" attack as shield sap,shield leech or energy leech is. I.E. it don't do actual damage, it's a debuff, you still have to drive the shield/hull down through conventional means, granted without them attacking back for a term of time. A 2 minute timer would render the skills already limited usability at high levels vertually useless. As resists and interupts are phased in, it would only become even more evident the useless skill w/ 2 minute timer.

[Mattsacre]

[quote name='RojoMuerte' timestamp='1320248787' post='47939']
Actually in live the activation timer was what was displayed over the skill in the hotbar. The 2min residual timer wasn't displayed. Reason being is you have an activation timer and a residual (immunity)timer. Seeing that you can activate the skill an mobs that have been hit/can be hit still it makes more sense to have had the activation timers over the skills (this was something that was in live that we are lacking here).

Menace didn't have a 2min residual but I believe (and this isnt gospel) they did have some sort of rule that you couldn't chain menace (could be thinking of WoW days) but I think there was an immunity grace period after a mob/player (pvp arena) were menaced they had alike 5-10secs to attempt recover/heal/esacpe etc. Same went as if mob menaced players they couldnt chain menace either but usually if you got hit with a hard menace and werent up to snuff, you'd die taking it up the rear anyways.

As for the rest all good observations and suggestions imo.
[/quote]
There wasn't a "grace" period after coming out of menace, it was a deminished reward hit period, a once menaced player/mob had a increased chance of resisting all future menace attempts. Also the 45 sec. - that wasn't a hard timer, higher skill levels did have increased length of menace than lower tiers of skill, but there was a "uncertainty" factor randomed in, the last 1/3 of the menace duration was randomed to be effect shooken off, so you couldn't be queing the skill as they came out of effect. That may be the "grace" period you may remember, them having the activation timer charging up before skill activating.