Component Balances. Additions, and mechanic changes.

[Talari]

This post is regarding the many components out there, as well as the needed addition to that list.

[b]Component balances;[/b]
First off, there is many vendor items that are typically not used by anyone who has spent more then a hour or two in the game. as a such they are wasted lines of coding. I suggest the following changes.


Lets say we have 2 Guns. The first has 2 stats and 10 dps, the second has 2 stats and 17 dps. Obviously the person is going to go for the latter, as to the fore. This is a common trend in EAB.
This is also the plague to diversity in builds and races in the game. So solving this issue will resolve many problems in the game; although take some time.


I suggest ( and am willing ) to do the following;

We should balance the dps ratio's of all components. Here is a few examples


Current items

Name: Blowgun Alpha [color="#00BFFF"][b](standard item from shop)[/b][/color]
Type: Projectile Weapon Level: 2
Reload: 2.40 seconds Damage: 7.00 units Energy Use: 14.00 units
[b]DPS (200%): 2.92 (6.02)
EPS (200%): 5.83 (9.26)[/b]
Range: 3000.00 m

Name: More Eerie Breed PL C3 [color="#00BFFF"][b](standard item from shop)[/b][/color]
Type: Projectile Weapon Level: 2
Reload: 1.60 seconds Damage: 4.00 units Energy Use: 9.00 units
[b]DPS (200%): 2.50 (5.16)
EPS (200%): 5.63 (8.93) [/b]
Range: 2700.00 m
Damage (200%): 4.00 (5.20)

Name: Executioner's Hand [color="#4169E1"][b](Best in slot Item)[/b][/color]
Type: Projectile Weapon Level: 2
Reload: 1.20 seconds Damage: 4.00 units Energy Use: 9.00 units
[b]DPS (200%): 3.33 (6.88)
EPS (200%): 7.50 (11.90)[/b]
Range: 3100.00 m


Suggested Change

Name: Blowgun Alpha [color="#00BFFF"][b](standard item from shop)[/b][/color]
Type: Projectile Weapon Level: 2
Reload: 2.40 seconds Damage: 7.00 units Energy Use: 14.00 units
[b]DPS (200%): 2.50 (6.25)
EPS (200%): 5.00 (8.00)[/b]
Range: 3000.00 m

Name: More Eerie Breed PL C3 [color="#00BFFF"][b](standard item from shop)[/b][/color]
Type: Projectile Weapon Level: 2
Reload: 1.60 seconds Damage: 4.00 units Energy Use: 9.00 units
[b]DPS (200%): 2.50 (6.25)
EPS (200%): 5.00 (8.00) [/b]
Range: 2700.00 m
Damage (200%): 4.00 (5.20)

Name: Executioner's Hand [color="#4169E1"][b](Best in slot Item)[/b][/color]
Type: Projectile Weapon Level: 2
Reload: 1.20 seconds Damage: 4.00 units Energy Use: 9.00 units
[b]DPS (200%): 3.33 (7.00)
EPS (200%): 7.50 (10.00)[/b]
Range: 3100.00 m


The result is a normalization of all component items, but still leaving the "none store bought items" slightly better. From here we take the "none store bought items" normalize them, and create a different set of stats for each. so that the player can "pick and choose" from bonus effects. The end result is the same, or similar dps, but a players ship being customized for specific builds. Light high speed, or high Shield regen (etc) builds.


[b]Adding some Components[/b]

Projen for an example, have high need of some viable device early game. I suggest adding (one or all) the following as a default store bought item From level 1 to 9:

Scanner
Recharge Reactor
Bonus/Buffs Scanner Range (Equip)

Regenerative Shielding
Bonus/Buffs Shield Recharge (Equip)



[b]Much needed Changes (Mechanic)[/b]

[color="#FF8C00"]Missile Speeds[/color]
Missile Speed needs to be increased.
A much needed mechanic change to Terran weapon fire. The effect will benefit the terran the most, but will also offer benefits to other races.

[color="#9ACD32"]In combat Regeneration (Shield)[/color]
should be changed from 10 to 5 seconds of (not taking damage) to start regeneration of shield.
The effect is increasing the shield regeneration of ships slightly. This will benefit Combat Nature of the progen; while giving a slight benefit to each race.


[color="#008000"]Cloaked Shield regeneration. [/color]
Cloaking now will resume shield regeneration after 5 seconds.
The effect will encourage jenquai to be reliant on their cloaking abilities. This will add to emphasizing the cloaking "nature" of jenquai.

[Mattsacre]

There is a reason why blowgun and eerie are different dps etc. blowguns are progen gun...progen are projectile centric, eerie breed are terran, they are missle centric, if you look at side buffs on most PL progen VS. terran you will find the progen are skill enhancing or combat harding in some way, the terran are usually warp or thust enhancing, there are of course a haybriding mid range like progen PL that buff ML and ML that buf PL, as do terran.

Your point about most people go for 1 or two guns with others never utilized is mostly true...evryone wants max dps they can get, but becuase something isn't USUALLY used don't mean they aren't used...my PS live upped beams to L3 to use the mace type beam that buffed mining skill, thus freeing a slot for other devices I wanted...now very few PS did this..but I did..and that beam that most wouldn't use I did. Now most progen wouldn't be caught with a ML..but a few do with interesting results (talk to magoo sometime about his PW with 6 L8 ML).

During live I actually had a TE that used PL until L5, then the SP were to critical to otherthings and I had to stop the experiment. This all being said, there does NOT need to be a retool to make progen/terran PL dps the same etc. there is a difference for a reason, because most take one path don't mean all do.

About shield charge..its currently the way it is becuase they are concentrated on other stuff...but did you know that like the shield charge was constant..even DURING combat? Yes that right...if your shield recharged 10 hp a sec and a mob hit you for 25 hp a sec. you went down 25, but the next sec it would recharge 10 hp, so also did mobs..they had a recharge rate as well, some even had a hull patch skill, the body snatcher type mobs did, some select chavez did as well.

Thats why there are devices primarily warrior devices that reduced mobs shield/reactor recharge RATES and not select amount, many mobs specificly tengu had a debuff to slow your reactor and/or shield recharge rates. Shields like sumpter were a god send for PS since they were the next best thing to having a TT about..you got a 500% or so shield recharge rate for 10 sec or so. filling you shieldby a 1/3 or so..yuo could do this during combat and mitigate some of the pounding you was getting via mobs, you just had to keep a eye on reactor since it does take juice.

Scan range..the progen always were weak on scan..there are and were low lvl scna devices for PS since they were the progen explorer..but the PW were short sighted..its what they give up for all that brawn, that does not mean PW cant get scan devices, thats what the RD scanners are about, its just PW usually didnt go that route..they wanted to sqeeze every erg of DPS out and so their slots were full of that stuff not scan. Progen were always light on device selection..for a reason, they are the shield/hull brawn type and the jenny were the scan stealth types.

The regenrative shielding, reactor recharge..they are there..PS get them...thats the progen buffers, all the PW defices are offensive PS more defensive..its that way BY DESIGN. If you can't see as a PW..take a friend along that can, you want your shield to regen and don't have a trader? Take a PS along...want your reactor to recharge better? Take a Jenguia along..its that way FOR A REASON, so are the looted debuffer devices...its to encourage cross race grouping..you want plasma debuff as a progen? take a jenquia, want chemical? take a progen. etc

Yes missle speed needs to be in, it was live, but currently is on low list priority I would imagine, as missle lvl went up, missle velocity also went up live, it also was used in mob dodge calculation rates from how fast the missle was.

Cloaked shield regeneration..NO..wasn't live should not be now, you want to regenerate your shield while hiding? Get a PS and powerdown, that or move away enough from mob that you can get out of agro range. Whould it be fair for a jenquia to be able to cloak, then more around immune from mobs targeting while their shield regenrate while a PS has to stand still, in a semi cloaked state to get his shield recharge? No, a PS gives up in stealthiness to get regenerate rates, a jenquia gives up regnerate rates for full stealthiness. It's a balance issue and a common sense issue.

A PS don't get to duck and hide between volleys, he has to stay head to head with mob, so they get a beefier shield and hull, a jenquia gets less in shield/hull but does blast hide, blast hide so don't need that same beefiness. Note something else that will effect combat in future...mob direction face, right now they can turn on a dime and counter attack, live a jenquia could cloak and sneak up their tail pipe and blast them, if it was a slow turning/moving mob you could beam them and get cloaked before they even got turned around, not even taking a single counter shot, did this a lot on the voltoi in fact.

[Lot]

I am pretty happy with how things are in the emulator and cannot make sense of this and the other thread that you started on the subject of changing stuff. I still cringe each time you mention the term "best in slot" because it sadly reminds me of people who play Wow and the Wow clones (looking at Rift especially) that have raid gear progression.

Players in Earth & Beyond often only care about equipment that is easily available which allows them to level up. This especially holds true in the lower levels because levels fly by quickly. The equipment that they've used becomes discarded.

Now, you mentioned some projectiles.

Progen projectiles tend to be more powerful than Terran and Jenquai projectiles. Although there are exceptions this is the normal rule. There are similar rules for beams and missiles. And loot only projectiles will be more powerful still. These factors appear to be omitted from your normalization.

Missile velocity seems fine to me right now since they seem to be doing their job adequately. Traditionally, missiles have always had a longer range than either projectiles or beams (although with beams there is an exception). Missiles can be fired from beyond the damage range of the target mob. It takes a little bit longer for the damage from missiles to initially connect to the mob compared with projectiles but that is the penalty for being able to apply that damage from range and relative safety.

The time lapse for shield recharge reasonably takes in to account reload times of weapons used by a mob to shoot a player. Reducing the timer from 10s to 5s may mean that player shields may be able to regenerate during combat which would lead to (and I don't like using this word) "imbalance".

[Mattsacre]

The time lapse for shield recharge reasonably takes in to account reload times of weapons used by a mob to shoot a player. Reducing the timer from 10s to 5s may mean that player shields may be able to regenerate during combat which would lead to (and I don't like using this word) "imbalance".


They always did recharge during combat, not currently in EMU but live they did, if a mob was severely lower than your lvl, that they did less in dmg per shot than your recharge rate was, they never notched your shield, you could sit there all day thumbing your nose. Now in EMU, when they tick you, your shield completly stops its recharge..even if their dmg would be lower than your per second recharge..so it might take them an hour to get to your hull, but if you was AFK they could kill you. Does that make sense in reality? Why would your shield completly stop charging when its getting thumped? ...it should keep up a steady rate of recharge until disrupted or destroyed.

Consider, what would be the point of the shatter type devices that break mobs recharge rate on shields or reactors? While you fought them THEIR shields and reactors had a recharge rate also..those that ahd a decent recharge on shields like tengu would take a bit longer than they do now, because in the time frame you did 10k dmg. they had recharged 1k, so it took a actual 11k to kill them. So also for players..your shield would take a over all larger amount to kill you, since you too had recharged a amount while they were fighting you.

For a PS the Restore/refuge devices and sumpter shields were a huge deal, as were the shieldGen to a lesser amount, you could hit them during combat and over a 10 sec. time frame get 1/3 shield back, extending your combat time frame you could withstand.

There are other devices that have real limited possible application, but during live they did have a use..like spiderweb...what currently would you need to disrupt a mobs warp capabilities? Their current AI is they fight you or flee you, but in thrust mode, in live there were mobs that would attempt to warp away..especially RD or chavez. The RD used to set a warp trap in AP along those old mining paths..you would only see 1 RD..they grav you then 2 more would warp in and get you. I spent long hours powerdowned there testing their AI beta.

Its a daunting task, and I imagine thats why it hasn't been done atm, all the mobs have to have a reactor pool value, recharge value, thrust value, fight or flee value, shield pool value, shield recharge value etc. atributed to ea type, this is before many of the current non-functional skills/devices can properly work, whats the point of a shatter device reducing a reactor recharge rate if the recharge is infinite? Or a coma device that scan blinds a mob and reduces reactor energy of mob if they don't have a modifable scan range or a bottomless reactor.etc.

[kjeron]

Aside from the various end-game raid gear, and a few other unique-tagged weapons, there is no "Best-in-Slot" item that you keep refering to.

There is more to an item than just its dps, capacity, or recharge. If that's all you base your decisions on then your missing out.

Missile Speed - cannot see any reason for this to change, a long travel time is only a disadvantage if you treat it as such.
- Logically,(which is of absolutely no importance), missiles should be very noticeably slower than projectiles or beams.

Shield regeneration - doesnt matter what the timer is, if your in combat against mobs with finished AI, everyone contributing should be constantly taking some damage, they wont recharge until all mobs are dead. Plasma and Chemical weapons fired by mobs still deal the entire damage in a single packet, rather than overtime as they should, which will prevent shield recharging even more when its fixed.

Cloak currently does allow the shield to recharge naturally, would be nice if it stays like this, but not game-breaking if its fixed either, right now at least.

[Talari]

[quote name='will' timestamp='1317129944' post='46739']
Aside from the various end-game raid gear, and a few other unique-tagged weapons, there is no "Best-in-Slot" item that you keep refering to.There is more to an item than just its dps, capacity, or recharge. If that's all you base your decisions on then your missing out.Missile Speed - cannot see any reason for this to change, a long travel time is only a disadvantage if you treat it as such. - Logically,(which is of absolutely no importance), missiles should be very noticeably slower than projectiles or beams.Shield regeneration - doesnt matter what the timer is, if your in combat against mobs with finished AI, everyone contributing should be constantly taking some damage, they wont recharge until all mobs are dead. Plasma and Chemical weapons fired by mobs still deal the entire damage in a single packet, rather than overtime as they should, which will prevent shield recharging even more when its fixed.Cloak currently does allow the shield to recharge naturally, would be nice if it stays like this, but not game-breaking if its fixed either, right now at least.
[/quote]


This is not the case with low end 1-3 level components.
and if there is no best in slot sets, why is it that every level we get the same level x projectile, or missle or beam?

Do you see jenquai using anything other then plasma beams early game? No. Progen use the same projectiles (executioners hands). And terran the same missiles. What about the other 50-100 weapons?

So its clear there is a "best in slot". there for "normalization" is needed.



Lastly, please do not confuse what i am saying in regards to normalization.
Each race should be normalized according to its race. This will keep the uniqueness of the races.

So if projectiles of progen have 15dps, 10 on beam, and 5 on missles. they each should be normalzed by that amount. and the jenquai would be normalized 15 dps on bream, 10 on projectile, 5 on missle. and terran 15 on missles, 10 on beam, 5 on projectile.

so that using these other off-weapons, shields etc. are equally attractive for its race.

Im not saying we should normalize the missile damage across all 3 races. This detracts from specific races uniqueness.

The idea is to bring the components up to part with each other. and then give them different sets of stats to allow cutomization. People like choices, some people like heavier tanks, some like more speed. So the ability to customize each one, while not hurting dps, cap etc is the objective in this post. Edited September 27, 2011 by Talar

[Spode]

[quote name='Talar' timestamp='1317131506' post='46741']
This is not the case with low end 1-3 level components.
and if there is no best in slot sets, why is it that every level we get the same level x projectile, or missle or beam?

Do you see jenquai using anything other then plasma beams early game? No. Progen use the same projectiles (executioners hands). And terran the same missiles. What about the other 50-100 weapons?

So its clear there is a "best in slot". there for "normalization" is needed.
[/quote]

Your statement on the projectiles and beams are off, so much off that I needed to comment on it. You really need to stop reading and believing everything you see written in the channels. Think outside the box and everything does not necessarily spin around DPS, sometimes there are tradeoffs that will let you gain in other areas.

Regarding missiles I can not say as I haven't played that much terran yet.

[ryleyra]

Well, maybe you aren't talking about normalizing across the three different races, but that's exactly what you say in your original post. If you intend to normalize the Crossbow against the Executioner's Hand, for instance, that's what you should have SAID. Only, I'm fairly certain that outside of fire rate, those two ARE normalized. (The Hand, I think, is faster. And often, a faster fire rate WILL do slightly more DPS because it compensates for the lower fire rate doing more burst damage)

The weakest equipment available usually DOES come with an advantage, which is that it provides a buff of some sort, or more commonly, a bonus to a particular class or racial skill. For instance, a Terran projectile could offer a bonus to the Hacking skill (I'm not sure what the Eerie or any other PL actually does without access to the game, this is just an example) as that is a skill exclusive to Terrans. Most Terrans might not choose to use that projectile weapon for that bonus, but MOST TERRANS WOULD NOT CHOOSE TO USE PROJECTILES ANYWAY, since their racial weapon is missiles.

But this doesn't mean that no one would choose to use their race's equipment if there is a compatibility that might make that option more valuable. For instance, Jenquai shields usually offer deflects. Jenquai Seekers have the ability to recharge their own shields. So as long as they have enough reactor energy to keep recharging their shields when they get low, the deflects will reduce the amount of damage of a certain type. Defenders also can choose to rely on their Psi Shields, never expecting any damage to get through to their (weaker) shields, and thus take advantage of the deflects. Personally, I don't choose to use Jenquai shields with my Defender, but that's because against weaker foes I prefer not to use my Psi Shield, saving the reactor energy for beams.

As for "everyone" using plasma, well, apparently that "everyone" doesn't include me. I actually use lasers on my Defender, with plasma as a backup weapon or for an Explorer. That's mainly for bio mobs anyway, which are very often resistant to energy. Energy works just fine against most enemies. And resistances aren't that great in the low levels anyway.

Another area where I can disagree that only one system is the "best" is missiles. I use a whole spread of missile types across all of my characters. My Scout uses the Class C because she prefers the Warp cost reduction, and likes hitting hard for her limited missile slots. My Trader uses X4's, though, because they have a much faster fire rate, and thus (on live) had a higher chance of interrupt. Even here the constant DPS ensures my foe won't regenerate, even if I'm running low on reactor. My Progen all use Dragonclaws because they can't use Terran Only weapons. They could use X4's, but the ammo is cheaper. (one less component)

Finally, in many cases there is just the fact that some weapons are simply available because a lot of new players don't want to make a long trip out of their start area. It wouldn't make sense for Progen guns or Jenquai lasers to be available at Earth Station. Edited September 27, 2011 by Dragoncove

[Mattsacre]

There is another assumption about "normalization", weapon availability, a blowgun and a musket are readily available early on..all the progen startup areas have them at the vendors, but to get crossbows they have to be looted and player made. The point of looted only stuff is they have some tiny bit more of something that players want on a stat that a vendor don't have...someone had to loot it, learn it and build it.

Becuase of the EMU and player base, crossbows are easy to obtain, and you can start out with that better dps etc. that you would wouldn't get, if you personally had to get by with vendor stuff until you could personally loot and learn the loot recipes. The story line on the loot items is there is some faction out there experimenting with stuff to get a better item, its "experimental" and you looted it and reverse engineered it and now you got something a tad better. Other things aren't "experimental" but aren't available to vendor becuase component manufactureers are being exclusive who they deal with, thus the items aren't mass produced for vendor market, thats the story of loot only comps like athanor,brimstone,cyclo etc.

But becuase someone went there before you, and learned all that, and is willing to help you by gearing you out so you are maxed for your current lvl, should not be confused with it being needing of "normalization". That stuff is available to you only through other players sufferage. Executioner finger etc., live that was a PW obtained weapon, they got it via a mission for projectile skill. The PS didn't start with that on their PL skill mission, they had to go buy a blowgun and return to show npc like TT do on the orb weaver. So for a PS to get a exectioner they had to have some other player build it for them. The executioner line were never a vendor item, even the L1, but in the EMU the L1 is vendor and the others are loot drops that fall during content you are sent to as you progress, so you can stumble on those recipes as you go along.

The eerie/spooky/macabre breed were loot also, so at the start of live they werent available as a choice, thats until people had looted and learned, so as a loot item, per your arguement they should be "normalized"..thus deminishing their true value, someone sweated to get it, but lets nerf it to fall in line with vendor stuff..you can't be more wrong IMO.

The whole point of stuff not being "normalized" is what we call "variety", there is a choice between 2 differing items, and you give up a little on something to get a little of something else, let me use this as an example:

Ocelot beams and Fox beams, both are plasma, one has a higher RoF, but when you calculate out the DPMinute, the fox comes out 1 dps under the ocelot..so everyone should only want the ocelot right? WRONG, Its the highest dps for its lvl and plasma...but wait! If you give up 1 dps and take a fox beam what could you gain? Why it has a tractor beam buff...so for 1 dps I can get a free harpy device effect, and free up a device slot. Now with that free device slot I might equip something that makes my damage output or defense increase or some other enhancement I might like. So for those in the know, they lose 1 dps on that 1 beam, but then might gain more dps overall from devicage.

Should the ocelot and fox be "normalized"? But they are! You gave dps to gain tractor, so true about other gear. Becuase YOU don't thing the side buffs are worth giving up the dps or eps or whatever on a item, is YOU, someone might find the exchange desirous.

Another example: L5 rifles and L5 dirk, the rifles are loot/pm only and progen, the dirk is vendor and terran, however at L5 the dirk out dps's the rifle and has side buffs that are great as well. So a terran PL that out DPS's a progen wow how novel, so the progen should swallow thier pride and use a "terran" PL for better dps *shudder*, but hold on..the rifle has a skill enhancement to PL skill! So those in the know would get at least 1 rifle for ITs buff and the reast dirks for their dps and side buffs. There are other items like this as you progress, one race or the other has something in some niche that makes you have to choose between it or other.

If you "normalized" them then why make a choice? Were would be the variety? A McDonalds in Kansas is the same as a McDonalds in Australia, there is something to be said about consistancy and "normalization", its called homoginization. Without variety, there is nothing special..it's blah, when is the last time you said to yourself, "I can't wait until I can get to London, and have a bigmac from a london McDonalds! I'm so sure they are that much better!"

[Yuritau]

[quote name='Talar' timestamp='1317131506' post='46741']
This is not the case with low end 1-3 level components.
and if there is no best in slot sets, why is it that every level we get the same level x projectile, or missle or beam?

Do you see jenquai using anything other then plasma beams early game? No. Progen use the same projectiles (executioners hands). And terran the same missiles. What about the other 50-100 weapons?

So its clear there is a "best in slot". there for "normalization" is needed.

The idea is to bring the components up to part with each other. and then give them different sets of stats to allow cutomization. People like choices, some people like heavier tanks, some like more speed. So the ability to customize each one, while not hurting dps, cap etc is the objective in this post.
[/quote]

If level 1-3 equipment is brought up AT ALL EVER in your discussion of item balance, you're looking at all the wrong things.

I use energy beams on my lowbie jenquai. At low levels, I don't like the DoT effect.
Low level missiles, I optimize for EPS on a TE, not DPS, cause I don't like running out of energy.
When playing progen, I never use the executioner's line. Too draining on the reactor and too ammo hungry.

If the only difference between item lines is the buffs on them, then there is essentially no variety. You seem to be under the impression that DPS is the be all end all stat on a weapon. This is not always true.

Just like your last thread, you're trying to fix things that aren't broken.

[jrichards]

The equipment (please don't call it component as there are actually items called components which are used to make equipment) is the same as it was in live. The devs have added some items (mostly overpowered imo) but I do not see any reason for adjusting stats on any existing items that the devs have not added.

There may be a 'best of' in the OP's opinion but guess what.....its an opinion. I know I consistently argue with Magoo that Mortars destroy most other PL weapons from 6-8 but he, and many other players, don't like the ammo cost, space required, ammo type, etc. Are other players wrong that they like to use different items that they find better fits their play style? Definitely not.

In fact this game probably has more valid equipment choices than any MMO I have played in the last 10 years. The fact that multiple items can be argued over, with each side having valid points, is really a testament to Westwood Studios. Don't fall into the 'chat channel people know it all' mentality. For a new player, that isn't interested in experiencing different items they may believe that there is only the best item for each slot per level......but they are wrong....as is the original poster.

Now finally I will say that not all items/buffs work. Nor do all skills, mob AI, or mob weapons. These effect what equipment is currently useful/useless in the EMU. The Devs have a lot of work on their plate and going back and redesigning all equipment while the game is still in Alpha would probably not be the best way to spend their time.