HellHasArrived Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 [quote name='RojoMuerte' timestamp='1316998327' post='46644'] To correct some of the statements above. The 2min timer was on the same mob trying to resap. You could target another mob and sap after the normal 12sec (might be 14sec) reload/cooldown timer.[/quote] Only if you use transfer and not area sap... Obviously you don't play a PW, or you would know its 21 seconds on the timer not 14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tredway Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 [quote name='HellHas' timestamp='1317001029' post='46652'] Only if you use transfer and not area sap... Obviously you don't play a PW, or you would know its 21 seconds on the timer not 14. [/quote] Funny cuz I just used it and the message popup said 14secs... L7 Group Sapping Sphere that is what its showing. Didn't test the lower levels as my PW hasn't been lower level in long time and only use the L7 flavor. But yes seems L5 Group Sap is a longer timer (either way they certainly are not 2Mins to recast, the 2mins is in relation to landing on same mob not reusing the skill). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellHasArrived Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Yeah use transfer you will get the actual time... L7 area sap takes a little time to warm up before it goes off... Transfer casts much faster if you have sap maxed out. Gives you a more accurate time on cooldown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattsacre Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 [quote name='RojoMuerte' timestamp='1316998327' post='46644'] To correct some of the statements above. The 2min timer was on the same mob trying to resap. You could target another mob and sap after the normal 12sec (might be 14sec) reload/cooldown timer. Debuff of Weaken Impact Items (Taniwha's Pride, Gorgons, Skirmish Shields) and Gravity Link L5 (Max level for PS) are not stacking but they do stack with Gravity Link L7 (Max Level for PWs). So L5 Gravity Link would need to be brought in-line with L7 in the way debuffs are handled. [/quote] And there in lies the problem, with a mob internal 2 min. timer, were would be the incentive for a PW to take top two tiers of sap? As they aren't spreading the heals to group as they should, then would you want to trip that 2 min. timer on other mobs present, using a skill that hits multi targets in sphere? You would be precluding any possable sapping of those mobs to sustain your combat time. I've said it before, and now again, sap NEEDS a fail/pass rate, with its OWN timer, moddable via skill tier and device, this will stop that multi sap exploit, since they may miss, but by having their own timer and not mob timer, someone that sap spheres won't preclude another PW from using the skill as well. It never was, nor should be a autohit skill, the mob should have a resist rate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tredway Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 [quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1317130939' post='46740'] And there in lies the problem, with a mob internal 2 min. timer, were would be the incentive for a PW to take top two tiers of sap? As they aren't spreading the heals to group as they should, then would you want to trip that 2 min. timer on other mobs present, using a skill that hits multi targets in sphere? You would be precluding any possable sapping of those mobs to sustain your combat time. I've said it before, and now again, sap NEEDS a fail/pass rate, with its OWN timer, moddable via skill tier and device, this will stop that multi sap exploit, since they may miss, but by having their own timer and not mob timer, someone that sap spheres won't preclude another PW from using the skill as well. It never was, nor should be a autohit skill, the mob should have a resist rate. [/quote] The resist rate comes from psionic deflects rating. Something that I'm not certain how well the coding for currently is, and then each individual mob in the game has to have this value set accordingly. But yes you are right on the pass/fail. Things like devices used on mobs as well had a pass/fail especially lower levels did not land hardly at all on higher level mobs (ie Tani = useless on say L50+ mobs for the most part because it wouldn't land hardly ever.) I believe the SAP issue is being worked on still by the DEVs, I was just commenting on how it currently was operating (not saying that is how it should/shouldn't), I know especially getting it to share the shield recharge with group is a focal point of fixing that skill as well. Baby steps I suppose hehe, they'll get us there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabidkiller Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 just curious if any of the devs have a PW to try and kill some cl50+ mobs since the "adjustment" to shield sap. in paticular whoever actually adjusted it to the way it is now 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellHasArrived Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 [quote name='rabidcajun' timestamp='1317226461' post='46791'] just curious if any of the devs have a PW to try and kill some cl50+ mobs since the "adjustment" to shield sap. in paticular whoever actually adjusted it to the way it is now [/quote] Highly doubtful... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firemann30 Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 Just make a Jenpie and all will be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lot Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 [quote name='lordfalcon' timestamp='1317315730' post='46837'] Just make a Jenpie and all will be good. [/quote] [b]⸮[/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyp [LDEV] Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 Ok, the negativity needs to stop, if you don't have something constructive to add, please don't post. Good lord, its going to be changed again. And who knows, maybe again, and again after that. If you can't accept it, there's nothing much we can do about it, but it won't stop til its right. You don't want your skill nerfed, then tell us about bugs as soon as you find them. Don't hoard them and try to use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firemann30 Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 [quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1317330977' post='46847'] Ok, the negativity needs to stop, if you don't have something constructive to add, please don't post. Good lord, its going to be changed again. And who knows, maybe again, and again after that. If you can't accept it, there's nothing much we can do about it, but it won't stop til its right. You don't want your skill nerfed, then tell us about bugs as soon as you find them. Don't hoard them and try to use them. [/quote] Question being if nobody was to complain or give feedback. Whether it being negative or positive. Would anything been address to stop the killing of the PW and feedback is feedback as long as it points towards a positive outcome or solutions. Like I have said before. Thanks to all that have given their time and effort to bring this game back to us. Plus the ones that are hoarding these exploits should be address. I agree that raid mobs shouldn't be able to be taken down by one person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiyana Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 [quote name='lordfalcon' timestamp='1317349385' post='46861'] Question being if nobody was to complain or give feedback. Whether it being negative or positive. Would anything been address to stop the killing of the PW and feedback is feedback as long as it points towards a positive outcome or solutions. Like I have said before. Thanks to all that have given their time and effort to bring this game back to us. Plus the ones that are hoarding these exploits should be address. I agree that raid mobs shouldn't be able to be taken down by one person. [/quote] There is a difference between complaining (which gives devs grey hairs assuming they have any left) and feedback which tends to give them warm fuzzies. To me there seems to be more complaining then feedback >.< Biggest thing that needs to be remembered is that these devs are not professionals but self trained volunteers , and the fact they have made so few mistakes is damn near a miracle. Don't believe me go look up Everquest 1 and the necro issues that plagued that game for years. Or take a look at how final fantasy 14 was released by so called professionals. Or any of a dozen of actual p2p games out there right now. Over compensating while trying to fix EXPLOITS that players have used knowingly is practically a tradition in MMO's so it should not be a surprise. Dealing with people exploiting is easy if only a few , but when many do it by rationalizing its not a bug but a game mechanic , or skill becomes hard. They can't go banning everyone like they would do in a normal MMO or there would be no players left , people were doing something they should not be doing and the devs have decided to ere on the side of caution and assume people did not know it was a exploit and treat it purely as a bug. So please give them a break they are after all volunteers and not getting paid. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryleyra Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 [quote name='lordfalcon' timestamp='1317349385' post='46861'] Would anything been address to stop the killing of the PW [/quote] This is the problem. A constructive, rational argument explaining why a particular change goes too far in weakening a particular class is expected and helpful. But repeatedly and consistently claiming that there is an intentional and concerted effort on the part of the devs to "destroy" a class that you and those who support you are attempting to "save" from from their efforts is neither helpful nor, in most cases, truthful. It is in fact true that there are always those who oppose a "nerf" because they wish to continue to use the exploit that was fixed, and this casts doubt on the motivations of all such arguments. When you [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem]attack the motivations of the devs[/url], this does not help your argument. If anything, it makes it more likely that people will question your own motivations. A true rational argument should not have to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion]resort to such a thing[/url], as long as it holds to reason and facts. This is an Alpha test. It is not a complete game. It is EXPECTED that systems are not going to work as intended. There are systems that are not even in place yet, like interrupt, which will SIGNIFICANTLY effect the balance of the classes. If those of you here are used to working in released games, which are completed and robust, then you should understand that you should have no expectation of that here. The devs will try to ensure that all classes have equivalent abilities, but this will take time and cannot be accomplished overnight, or even before the game is finally ready to be released, which could be years for now. It may NEVER happen. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrell [BT] Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Good points Dragon, it's also the case that mobs aren't resisting skills or devices yet either. This will also make a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrixunMortar Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 [quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1317398671' post='46871'] This is the problem. A constructive, rational argument explaining why a particular change goes too far in weakening a particular class is expected and helpful. But repeatedly and consistently claiming that there is an intentional and concerted effort on the part of the devs to "destroy" a class that you and those who support you are attempting to "save" from from their efforts is neither helpful nor, in most cases, truthful. It is in fact true that there are always those who oppose a "nerf" because they wish to continue to use the exploit that was fixed, and this casts doubt on the motivations of all such arguments. [/quote] firstly this is not ONE nerf! |It is one too far! the progen warrior has been recieving nerf after nerf for a very long time now! yet the other classes are being made better. why i ask? is it because we kill as we are meant to or because others can't? the devs found a fault in their own programming and punished the whole race! this has been reported on other bugs where ppl say they've used it lots and yet nothing happens! why is it the warrior that gets pushed down? should a cl 20-25 be able to kill multiple cl41 osterae? i think not, so why can JE's still do it? should the pop rock miners have got L9 loot from a cl10 mob? no! why are the warriors punished and not these ppl?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyp [LDEV] Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 [quote name='lordfalcon' timestamp='1317349385' post='46861'] Question being if nobody was to complain or give feedback. Whether it being negative or positive. Would anything been address to stop the killing of the PW and feedback is feedback as long as it points towards a positive outcome or solutions. Like I have said before. Thanks to all that have given their time and effort to bring this game back to us. Plus the ones that are hoarding these exploits should be address. I agree that raid mobs shouldn't be able to be taken down by one person. [/quote] There is a wild difference between "feedback" and things like "Highly doubtful" on the other page referring to whether or not we play PWs or test our own changes. That's just silly if you think we don't try it and make sure it works as the code says it does after its changed. If you think we don't, well, that speaks more for you than it does for us. Brixun, in regards to what you said above: [quote name='BrixunMortar'] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]firstly this is not ONE nerf! |It is one too far! the progen warrior has been recieving nerf after nerf for a very long time now! yet the other classes are being made better. why i ask? is it because we kill as we are meant to or because others can't? the devs found a fault in their own programming and punished the whole race! this has been reported on other bugs where ppl say they've used it lots and yet nothing happens! why is it the warrior that gets pushed down? should a cl 20-25 be able to kill multiple cl41 osterae? i think not, so why can JE's still do it? should the pop rock miners have got L9 loot from a cl10 mob? no! why are the warriors punished and not these ppl??[/font][/color] [color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"][/quote][/font][/color] The reason we can't punish them is because THEY AREN'T BREAKING THE RULES. One too far, huh? We didn't find a fault in our own programming, we made a fix based on behavior we were SEEING. That being people soloing very high level "end-game" mobs exclusively because of Shield Sap. We didn't know that it was causing the "heal" to do all of its heal to the PW if they had a group. Sure people posted but we didn't necessarily see that. Is there a bug post in the bug forum about this exploit? Do we have a ticket reporting? Guess the answers. *bzzt* I haven't seen one, and no. This is the point, if you want to avoid getting nerfed, tell us when something is acting in a way its not described by the skill text. We do have a [b]lot of stuff to keep track of[/b] and there aren't that many of us who can do the programming. Because of this we have to pick and choose changes. Having said that, pay attention to the other players in this thread, a rational argument will get you a LOT FURTHER than "This sucks, I hate the devs." which just causes us to generally skip your post and look for the next one with a rational idea in it... until we see a hoard of them such as in this post and say something like I did. That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellHasArrived Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) Okay... I will say this as rationally as I can. How is getting a full heal of the shields every 21 seconds game breaking? On high end mobs that full heal of the shields gets wiped out in the matter of seconds. Long before the PW can even use the skill again. The only thing that will keep it going is constant heals and hull patches from supporting group members. Like Will stated earlier the group sap is mainly used for the DPS not the actual shield return itself. When you put the timer up to 2 minutes which you stated either in this thread or another, it was pulled out of the air. Anyone who plays a PW knows that when fighting bosses you can't rely on your sap alone to keep you up in a fight. That is all I have to say on that. P.S. To be honest while in a raid I never noticed my shield being completely refilled by the max sap. Kinda busy fighting and taking massive amounts of damage to see it. Edited October 1, 2011 by HellHas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyp [LDEV] Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 Well, from what Will said, it was causing the heal for the toons that should be going to the group to go directly to the PW rather than be shared, if i read him correctly. I've also made it plain in another post (maybe this one, not sure) that no player should or will ever be able to solo a 66 if we have anything to say about it. Not gonna happen cap'n. [quote name='HellHas'] [color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,]Okay... I will say this as rationally as I can. How is getting a full heal of the shields every 21 seconds game breaking? On high end mobs that full heal of the shields gets wiped out in the matter of seconds. Long before the PW can even use the skill again. The only thing that will keep it going is constant heals and hull patches from supporting group members. Like Will stated earlier the group sap is mainly used for the DPS not the actual shield return itself. When you put the timer up to 2 minutes which you stated either in this thread or another, it was pulled out of the air. Anyone who plays a PW knows that when fighting bosses you can't rely on your sap alone to keep you up in a fight. That is all I have to say on that. P.S. To be honest while in a raid I never noticed my shield being completely refilled by the max sap. Kinda busy fighting and taking massive amounts of damage to see it. [/font][/color] [color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,][/quote][/font][/color] [color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,] [/font][/color] [font="Arial"]Ok, this is a good start, HellHas... but consider this same thing from outside of the PWs perspective, this is where your developers are. This I wouldn't call 'game-breaking' perhaps, but rather engenders less need for the other group members to be involved with a raid since a PW and a partner or two can basically duo or trio a raid encounter. This is a problem especially in Blackbeard's case because his spawn rate is long (unless someone's changed it recently) and he has some of the coolest items. This leads to a bottle neck in the game's design where people want his strong stuff, but where some can easily dominate it when they shouldn't be able to. I witnessed this, so did Tienbau. Both of our impressions were that SAP was being used to keep the PW standing when it should have been a little bit harder than it was. The intent is for SAP to be used to keep the DPS up, so if that's all it is doing, then great, its to free up a healer sitting in your group behind you from having to splash out the reactor intensive area heals and just be able to focus single target powerful heals on the PW. This is a concept used in any MMO's grouping system.[/font] [font="Arial"] [/font] [font="Arial"]That timer was pulled from the air, and we have to experiment sometimes. If you don't believe me ask your JD friends about a few months ago I do believe they were also trying to crucify us as well for some changes in and around the workings of Combat Cloak. [/font] [font="Arial"] [/font] [font="Arial"]Like I think I said earlier in this post, the PW once we're done will always be the best sustained DPS and tank, the JD is always going to be able to hit harder with one shot than the PW will, and turn the mob away, and the TE will always be the supporting fighter with Rally and so on, they'll never be better DPS in either way, just another sustained source that gives everyone else quite a bonus.[/font] [font="Arial"] [/font] [font="Arial"]I watched people again and again make use of sap in groups of 2 or 3 and take down Blackbeard. That's all I need to see to know there's a problem with SAP, especially given that one of the people in teh group was a scout, one was a jd, and the other was the pw, and the others appeared to more or less be sitting idle. Upon further reflection, they might be outside of group range, leading to what Will was trying to say about their group effect being visited upon the PW resulting in 3x the heal. If that is the case, then its something we haven't accounted for (a group member traveling out of range) and the code is essentially splashing the effect onto the next value there, which is going round the full circle back to the PW. [/font] [font="Arial"] [/font] [font="Arial"]Players all of the world feel this way when their favorite classes are changed, but they rarely stop to consider the viewpoints of other classes and so on. This is why this cycle repeats itself again and again, because unfortunately it is inherent in human nature to have a selfish viewpoint.[/font] [font="Arial"] [/font] [font="Arial"]Hope that helps to understand it.[/font] [font="Arial"] [/font] [font="Arial"](and see, a rational post will get a rational response. )[/font] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjeron Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 [quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1317488345' post='46928'] Well, from what Will said, it was causing the heal for the toons that should be going to the group to go directly to the PW rather than be shared, if i read him correctly. [/quote] Did a few tests to confirm that Kyp. Only Group Sap and Group Sapping Sphere are giving the PW the extra heal, the only 2 skills which should be splitting it among the group. Shield Sapping Sphere, which hits multiple mobs but isnt supposed to split the heal, does not grant the PW the extra heal. Sap is currently(and for some time now), capped at 4/9's the PW shield capacity. One additional group member results in 8/9 capacity healed, which is practically a full heal already, though another group member does increase to a true full heal. But the group members must be in range, the range at which it would otherwise transfer shield to that group member. Probably something close to the Range on Shield Recharges area affect, testing it - just 5k was too far away. Out-of-range group members do not trigger the extra heal. [quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1317488345' post='46928'][font="Arial"]I watched people again and again make use of sap in groups of 2 or 3 and take down Blackbeard. That's all I need to see to know there's a problem with SAP, especially given that one of the people in teh group was a scout, one was a jd, and the other was the pw, and the others appeared to more or less be sitting idle. Upon further reflection, they might be outside of group range, leading to what Will was trying to say about their group effect being visited upon the PW resulting in 3x the heal. If that is the case, then its something we haven't accounted for (a group member traveling out of range) and the code is essentially splashing the effect onto the next value there, which is going round the full circle back to the PW. [/font] [font="Arial"] [/font][/quote] I highly doubt a single TS+PW could provide the healing for Blackbeard, unless they had gotten him out alone, without any of the minions. More likely you were witnessing an easily reproducible display bug - anyone who is in formation, before you enter the sector, will never appear to move to you, from your perspective they will remain wherever they were when you gated/logged in. As soon as they break formation, their location will update for you. Only the leader of the formation will ever appear to move. They could have been back at the gate from your view, outside your scan range, but really right beside the PW healing them. As for whether Sap's heal is relevant to GoBB, I swapped the PW out for a TE and gave it a try, even with only L5 HDC, it was still doable with only a TS+TT for healing, because the tanking TE was the only one to get shot at. I know this is being worked on, I've seen positive results of it at the Controller and in the Fishbowl, GoBB however still refuses to spread the hate unless you're actively shooting him and the minions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyp [LDEV] Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 We've actually got our claws into introducing some AI code here recently, you can expect these to become more difficult and account for some of these things, also better hate spreading, it is most definitely something we've had our eyes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellHasArrived Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Well... Even with the PW getting that full heal from that group sapping sphere, the people that are doing the healing are still doing so no matter what. Just like me they don't notice that full heal from the sap also. For all they know it's their heals that is giving their shields that juice. Having been one of the people in the raids to kill GoBB... It usually takes us about 3 healers and 2 dedicated hull patchers for the tank to survive that raid. Has people done it with less? Yes. Hasn't been us though, and how they do it I have no clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyp [LDEV] Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Ah, but that is for you and yours, not noticing because you're behaving in the expected fashion, but some HAD noticed it and were using it. Leading us to believe the skill was overpowered, at least at first. Now that I've heard about the effect of group Sapping Sphere, I'm going to bring it up today to see if we can't find a better solution. As long as it isn't enabling you to solo high end boss mobs, the timer could be returned to what it was rather than playing with it until it felt about right for the amount of damage restored to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimir[IS] Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1317560427' post='46980'] Ah, but that is for you and yours, not noticing because you're behaving in the expected fashion, but some HAD noticed it and were using it. Leading us to believe the skill was overpowered, at least at first. Now that I've heard about the effect of group Sapping Sphere, I'm going to bring it up today to see if we can't find a better solution. As long as it isn't enabling you to solo high end boss mobs, the timer could be returned to what it was rather than playing with it until it felt about right for the amount of damage restored to you. [/quote] Nice, I may even dust off my PW again. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrell [BT] Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 It's good to know that a solution to the shield sap issue can be had that doesn't involve weakening the other classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tredway Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Was reading another site and happen to stumble onto this graphic. Made me laugh so thought I would share for enjoyment purposes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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