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[quote name='lordfalcon' timestamp='1316652980' post='46466']
This has turned into a Jenquai Friendly game. Earlier today to much dismay. There was 2 TE, 1 PW, 1 JE, in a group all maxed and with top end gear. Low and behold the JE was getting almost all of the kill message. WOW 3 beams and no crit targeting.
[/quote]

there is some good JE beams out there..

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I say this so it get said again....

It would be nice to see what was updated in the launcher window, even the mini-patch. It would be nice to be kept informed on what things were being tweaked. Also, if the server is down, please consider using the launcher web page to display information regarding the issue. Even a useful "we know about the problem" message would be very helpful.

Thanks.
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JE shield leech is only a real killer against bio mobs. A JE that takes on a lv 50+ mob solo with 100K shield AND hull is in for a loooooong kill...if he or she lives to tell about it.

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[quote name='Vitaes' timestamp='1316685724' post='46486']
JE shield leech is only a real killer against bio mobs. A JE that takes on a lv 50+ mob solo with 100K shield AND hull is in for a loooooong kill...if he or she lives to tell about it.
[/quote]

Quite true, but I did face far more bio mobs than mech mobs in Live. Sure there are mech mobs like belters and miners but they didn't compare to the bio mobs I faced in frequency. 100K shields plus the same amout of hull, is often not worth a JE's time to fight, but fold kiting, at least right now, would be the best tactic to do it and live to tell about it.

Not to mention it's almost always better to use Plasma than Energy for a JE, since we can debuff it, and it gets a bonus against shields.

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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1316380372' post='46277']
Which mobs Kyp?
[/quote]

55s are no big deal, this isn't what I'm getting at. 56s even, but 66s I never once saw a Progen on Andromeda take down a 66 solo, anywhere. I knew some pretty well equipped Progen, even some that cheated (admittedly) and aside from that one, who knew how to use Sundari equipment for resists on his Progen Warrior.. I certainly never saw it. :) The design docs say this should be impossible, therefore it is likely to.

I'm not saying there's going to be a huge nerf, but I am saying don't expect to solo play against mobs that are intended as bosses or raids (roughly 57-66). Duoing? Not completely impossible, but solo they should kick your can up your tail and through your nose, Progen or no Progen.

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1316726854' post='46502']
55s are no big deal, this isn't what I'm getting at. 56s even, but 66s I never once saw a Progen on Andromeda take down a 66 solo, anywhere. I knew some pretty well equipped Progen, even some that cheated (admittedly) and aside from that one, who knew how to use Sundari equipment for resists on his Progen Warrior.. I certainly never saw it. :) The design docs say this should be impossible, therefore it is likely to.

I'm not saying there's going to be a huge nerf, but I am saying don't expect to solo play against mobs that are intended as bosses or raids (roughly 57-66). Duoing? Not completely impossible, but solo they should kick your can up your tail and through your nose, Progen or no Progen.
[/quote]

I have a well equipped PW in game now and there is no way that I could take on a lvl 66 mob all by myself. Before or after the big nerf on PW's. In my opinion there is alot more involved other then Shield nova and Sap to be able to do this. Instead of killing the progen warrior. Why not go after the ppl that can kill raid mobs by themselves. Cause clearly they are "cheating" and exploiting the game. I'm sure thats not going to happen though.

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Shield sap doesn't make the PW invincible at all... Even when it was on a 14 second timer my PW still died regularly if he didn't have constant heals. The PW was never able to solo any of the raid bosses ever except Troller and GoBB before they were changed. The JE shield leach is more deadly then the PW's sap, but because that replenishes reactor and not shields it will never be nerfed. Nevermind the fact that a few applications can kill a handful of 40 bio mobs very easily.
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[quote name='HellHas' timestamp='1316806076' post='46521']
Shield sap doesn't make the PW invincible at all... Even when it was on a 14 second timer my PW still died regularly if he didn't have constant heals. The PW was never able to solo any of the raid bosses ever except Troller and GoBB before they were changed. The JE shield leach is more deadly then the PW's sap, but because that replenishes reactor and not shields it will never be nerfed. Nevermind the fact that a few applications can kill a handful of 40 bio mobs very easily.
[/quote]

imho if u nerf the sap u should nerf the leach equally! they both do the same thing they just charge different areas! how can u be invincible with sap when it takes reactors which progens are useless with! vice versa for the shields on a jenpie! too many whining voices from jenpies and too many ppl that just play the game as progens i guess! how can a tank be a tank when its constantly weakened and all other classes strengthened? i loved this game in live and when i started playing on the emu but i'm a progen at heart and with the constant nerfing of this race i beginning to wonder why i should bother!

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Stop with the worries about Shield Sap, it's going to be changed to be less of a delay, 2 minutes was just the "number plucked out of the air" by the programmer who was looking at the problem.

Also, there WAS a problem with Shield Sap, whether anyone wants to own up to it or not, but I sat and watched someone on more than one occasion take down GoBB after we made it harder three successive times in different ways. They were somehow using it to nearly replenish their entire shield, repeatedly.

There may have been a bug, but the timer is longer than necessary and will be reduced; however it will take some time.

In regard to the Jenpie comment & the leech skill, "What good does stealing reactor energy actually do for a Jenquai?" :D (aside from if they were sitting in an intense radiation field and had lost most of their reactor.)

In any event, if we see Jenquai soloing things we consider boss mobs, you can bet your arse that it would get nerfed.

For what its worth Brixun, no Jenpie whine influenced this, me and a few other leads sitting around watching PWs solo and duo things meant for a group or multiple groups influenced it. See last statement above this paragraph for what we'd do to leech if Jenquai are spotted acing those same mobs.

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1316813167' post='46534']
Stop with the worries about Shield Sap, it's going to be changed to be less of a delay, 2 minutes was just the "number plucked out of the air" by the programmer who was looking at the problem.

Also, there WAS a problem with Shield Sap, whether anyone wants to own up to it or not, but I sat and watched someone on more than one occasion take down GoBB after we made it harder three successive times in different ways. They were somehow using it to nearly replenish their entire shield, repeatedly.

There may have been a bug, but the timer is longer than necessary and will be reduced; however it will take some time.

In regard to the Jenpie comment & the leech skill, "What good does stealing reactor energy actually do for a Jenquai?" :D (aside from if they were sitting in an intense radiation field and had lost most of their reactor.)

In any event, if we see Jenquai soloing things we consider boss mobs, you can bet your arse that it would get nerfed.

For what its worth Brixun, no Jenpie whine influenced this, me and a few other leads sitting around watching PWs solo and duo things meant for a group or multiple groups influenced it. See last statement above this paragraph for what we'd do to leech if Jenquai are spotted acing those same mobs.
[/quote]

Kyp I get what what youre saying, and im glad to see the CD timer is going to be worked back down to a decent level.
My largest concern in this argument is the allusion to Jenquai being able to solo high end mobs on the same level as a PW. The flaw in that argument is that it seems like theres a trend to try to make JE and JW on par or better than the specialized all combat class in the game.

This was an issue on live as well. Realistically I would be pretty angry if I saw JE's soloing high level content full stop, as this encroaches on a whole classes purpose. I mean should my PW be able to mine or refine level 9 ores, cloak, jumpstart, wormhole, and build reactors?

Its bad enough that the JE played exceptionally well can pretty much succeed albeit very slowly at content they were never meant to succeed at. The premise of just because you can do a thing, doesnt mean you are meant to do such a thing applies here heavily. Kudos to those extremely dedicated players trying so hard to be what they never were meant to be, but really I could care less if a JE can solo a voltoi or not, its a non-issue as it was never intended to even be possible much less embraced.

JW/JD have a stronger argument being the combat flavor dual class of the explorers, but really should an elven fighter/rogue be more powerful heads up in combat that a full specialist dwarven battlerager fighter class?

I know its not a perfect analogy, but dear god this argument has been going for over 10 years now. If people want to be a combat profession, be a PW, TE, or JD and accept the limitations of the prof. The classes arent meant to be balanced, and I see calls to balance for combat every time I check these forums. Edited by Ryle

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[quote name='lordfalcon' timestamp='1316792337' post='46520']
I have a well equipped PW in game now and there is no way that I could take on a lvl 66 mob all by myself. Before or after the big nerf on PW's. In my opinion there is alot more involved other then Shield nova and Sap to be able to do this. Instead of killing the progen warrior. Why not go after the ppl that can kill raid mobs by themselves. Cause clearly they are "cheating" and exploiting the game. I'm sure thats not going to happen though.
[/quote]

Id actually have to support this idea. The part about going after those exploiting unintended mechanics.
You see this in MMOs all the time, where exploiters will latch onto the newest I-win button, end up getting a whole system nerfed to hell and back, and continue on to find the next weakness to exploit. All the while universally retaining whatever profit they had gained from the last exploit.

The cycle never ends, and I for one wish the players causing the issues would just leave. If not voluntarily then by force.

Granted in some applications the usefulness of a professional exploiter during testing to identify and demonstrate weaknesses is extremely valuable to development, but those obviously doing it for bragging rights or personal gain in game? Kick em. I would. Edited by Ryle

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Can't punish those who are playing within the rules. They weren't exploiting as such, but they were using the skill as a crutch because we overlooked something that had too much power. This gets the skill adjusted. Skill balance (and rebalance) must happen by necessity, and it isn't always gonna be right the first time 'round. Sorry, sometimes we need to collect data on how something works in the live environment. :D

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Thank you for the info Kyp I think this will make a lot of people happy to hear that its going to change. I think, when we see that its a 2min timer it freaked a lot of people, cause we all thought it was going to stay there..

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I don't think that Shield Leech should be nerfed. JEs do use this skill to get some damage in, as we are required to level our combat xp bar, but any JE experienced with the class, saves CL for last. This is partially because it means we have better equipment for fighting similiar CL mobs than we would otherwise have if we were level balanced, but we also have higher level skills than we would otherwise have. At L150 JEs are not on par with PWs in combat, nor should we be, but we do have to be able to do some combat when we're solo, and an orefield guardian aggros on us.

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Well unfortunately the select player(s) that continue to use exploits or whatever they are doing will still find a way to kill the game for others. For some reason these ppl are allowed to continue to behave in this manner. Not sure why but they are allowed. It doesnt matter if you take away their current exploit they will continue to do so until the are removed but, we cant touch the chosen ones as it seems. Like ive stated before I appreciate all the time and efforts that all involved have given to bring this game back so Thank you. Enough said control the things you can and dont worry about the things that u cant. It doesnt do any good.

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Necessary to bring it all inline, don't worry the PW will still always do the most sustained DPS. The JD will remain spike damage, and the TE will be what the TE is, someone who can do damage, but can't keep it up as long as the PW.

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1316834541' post='46552']
Necessary to bring it all inline, don't worry the PW will still always do the most sustained DPS. The JD will remain spike damage, and the TE will be what the TE is, someone who can do damage, but can't keep it up as long as the PW.
[/quote]

Ultimately what will it be like for the non-warriors? (Scout, Seeker, Explorer, and Tradesman) Is it intended that a JE not be able to, with the right tactics, equipment, and patience, solo a CL53 Manes? (right tactics as in fighting via stealth, devices, and skills.) If it's not intended for JEs to be able to kill the guardians of high level orefields, will those mobs have loot tables sufficent that Warriors will want to seek them out and kill them of their own volition? The warriors protecting explorers model only works if it's worthwhile for both warriors & explorers.

Since fighting is required of all classes to a degree, whether it's to complete missions, to deal with orefield guardians, and to level up, the support classes should not be totally ineffectual at fighting things roughly their CL. For things that are a little over their CL, with the right equipment, tactics, and patience soloing them should be doable, at least in some cases, albeit much more inefficent than doing so with a warrior. The lack of critical targeting, IMO, gets the job done in that respect in terms of separating them from the warriors & Progen. The difference between the non-combat classes, and the combat classes, is the difference between simply being able to fight, and being good at fighting.

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1316813167' post='46534']

Also, there WAS a problem with Shield Sap, whether anyone wants to own up to it or not, but I sat and watched someone on more than one occasion take down GoBB after we made it harder three successive times in different ways. They were somehow using it to nearly replenish their entire shield, repeatedly.

[/quote]

It's been around for forever, and reported multiple times, the heal that should be divided among the group members gets dumped on the PW only, so when grouped with at least one other member in range, the PW gets 50%+50% heal, while solo they still only get the single 50% heal. The group members still never see any heal from the skill as they should. It's actually weaker than it should be right now, healing for at most 100% of the PW's shield cap, rather than 50% per group member, up to 300% of the PW's shield cap healed(split 6 ways).

However, in group play right now - Sap is for AoE DPS and nothing more, the heal is irrelevant endgame, and cannot even compare to Recharge Shield or Hull Patch's effectiveness. It will be more useful once it gets spread among the group though.

The real problem has always been the limited AI, that the healers can sit in perfect safety while the PW tanks everything. Getting the mobs to spread their damage out is not an easy thing to balance, especially right now when various defensive skill/equipment/buffs do not yet work. There has been some progress though. Eventually, I think a certain skill will need to not attract aggro through the damage it does, or even better, maybe have it "repulse" the aggro when it deals damage to a mob. Right now it just reinforces the aggro, keeping it (mostly) on the tank, which even the new aggro mechanics haven't been able to overcome that well.

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[quote name='will' timestamp='1316893715' post='46578']
It's been around for forever, and reported multiple times, the heal that should be divided among the group members gets dumped on the PW only, so when grouped with at least one other member in range, the PW gets 50%+50% heal, while solo they still only get the single 50% heal. The group members still never see any heal from the skill as they should. It's actually weaker than it should be right now, healing for at most 100% of the PW's shield cap, rather than 50% per group member, up to 300% of the PW's shield cap healed(split 6 ways).

However, in group play right now - Sap is for AoE DPS and nothing more, the heal is irrelevant endgame, and cannot even compare to Recharge Shield or Hull Patch's effectiveness. It will be more useful once it gets spread among the group though.

The real problem has always been the limited AI, that the healers can sit in perfect safety while the PW tanks everything. Getting the mobs to spread their damage out is not an easy thing to balance, especially right now when various defensive skill/equipment/buffs do not yet work. There has been some progress though. Eventually, I think a certain skill will need to not attract aggro through the damage it does, or even better, maybe have it "repulse" the aggro when it deals damage to a mob. Right now it just reinforces the aggro, keeping it (mostly) on the tank, which even the new aggro mechanics haven't been able to overcome that well.
[/quote]

Not so sure about the healing part , but as a JE I can easily pull hate off the tank long enuff to die >.< unless I am quick on the cloak. With leech as it is I can solo bio's at my level or a few above if I can pull a single mob away from the herd , but get 2 or 3 that are over my level shooting me and it becomes more effort then its worth. Much easier to chain kill mobs slightly under the to try for the bigger ones unless their drops are good.

I think a good balance would be to make it so PW's can still kill the mobs in question but make it take so long as to not be generally worth the effort. If someone wants to take 10-20 min to kill a single mob they should be allowed to even if its normally out of their level range. Patience should always be rewarded imo.

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[quote name='will' timestamp='1316893715' post='46578']
It's been around for forever, and reported multiple times, the heal that should be divided among the group members gets dumped on the PW only, so when grouped with at least one other member in range, the PW gets 50%+50% heal, while solo they still only get the single 50% heal. The group members still never see any heal from the skill as they should. It's actually weaker than it should be right now, healing for at most 100% of the PW's shield cap, rather than 50% per group member, up to 300% of the PW's shield cap healed(split 6 ways).

However, in group play right now - Sap is for AoE DPS and nothing more, the heal is irrelevant endgame, and cannot even compare to Recharge Shield or Hull Patch's effectiveness. It will be more useful once it gets spread among the group though.

The real problem has always been the limited AI, that the healers can sit in perfect safety while the PW tanks everything. Getting the mobs to spread their damage out is not an easy thing to balance, especially right now when various defensive skill/equipment/buffs do not yet work. There has been some progress though. Eventually, I think a certain skill will need to not attract aggro through the damage it does, or even better, maybe have it "repulse" the aggro when it deals damage to a mob. Right now it just reinforces the aggro, keeping it (mostly) on the tank, which even the new aggro mechanics haven't been able to overcome that well.
[/quote]

Alas, Will, I don't always read every post. I try to read as many as I can but I've missed this. We had noticed such issues and decided to try and bring it in line. This does help though. You always seem pretty thoughtful in the detail you come up, you might (if you were so inclined, at any rate) talk to Arthurdent about joining the beta test team. We can always use details. :)

AI is something we're working on, some of it malfunctioned after it moved to the live server but we've got some big new changes coming in that regard here in the very near future, barring any further problems with it, AI is certainly some of the trickiest code to get right.

Terrell, worry not, you'll always be able to take out OreField Guardians. You might have to play strategically to some extent using buffs and debuffs and so on, but you'll be able to.

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1316900672' post='46580']
Terrell, worry not, you'll always be able to take out OreField Guardians. You might have to play strategically to some extent using buffs and debuffs and so on, but you'll be able to.
[/quote]

Thank you, that works for me. I don't mind having to change what I put in those 6 device slots, or the 3 weapon slots.

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[quote name='will' timestamp='1316893715' post='46578']

The real problem has always been the limited AI, that the healers can sit in perfect safety while the PW tanks everything. Getting the mobs to spread their damage out is not an easy thing to balance, especially right now when various defensive skill/equipment/buffs do not yet work. There has been some progress though. Eventually, I think a certain skill will need to not attract aggro through the damage it does, or even better, maybe have it "repulse" the aggro when it deals damage to a mob. Right now it just reinforces the aggro, keeping it (mostly) on the tank, which even the new aggro mechanics haven't been able to overcome that well.
[/quote]


This is not completely true anymore. There are several raid scenarios that spread damage to the healers. Albeit not like "live" where casting a heal was cause for instant agro from everything in range, and where warriors had to use their hate skill to recover the agro before the healer melted. Until the warriors hate skills work, the mob ai should not be changed too much, or, instead of pw's leaving their toons parked, the healers will be. :)
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I'm glad that the cooldown for sap will not remain at 2 mins , but were talking 30 sec , a minute maybe?
I guess as progens we have to take what we can. I would like to ask a question about the update before Kyp or TB. The debuffs from taniwas and Gravity Link no longer stacked after that update . Was that intended or a mistake that will be fixed?Just asking cause that is another 26% damage we lost on that one .
Thanks. Edited by Bellash
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[quote name='Bellash' timestamp='1316985737' post='46629']
I'm glad that the cooldown for sap will not remain at 2 mins , but were talking 30 sec , a minute maybe?
I guess as progens we have to take what we can. I would like to ask a question about the update before Kyp or TB. The debuffs from taniwas and Gravity Link no longer stacked after that update . Was that intended or a mistake that will be fixed?Just asking cause that is another 26% damage we lost on that one .
Thanks.
[/quote]


To correct some of the statements above. The 2min timer was on the same mob trying to resap. You could target another mob and sap after the normal 12sec (might be 14sec) reload/cooldown timer.

Debuff of Weaken Impact Items (Taniwha's Pride, Gorgons, Skirmish Shields) and Gravity Link L5 (Max level for PS) are not stacking but they do stack with Gravity Link L7 (Max Level for PWs). So L5 Gravity Link would need to be brought in-line with L7 in the way debuffs are handled.

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