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Auction House...


ryleyra

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What currently happens: "WTB 20 stacks of x ammo..pst. repeat..repeat" then someone responds "Bring ores to F7 and i make them." "I don't have the ores, thus the WTB stacks of ammo post". "K sorry, let me know when you have the ores I'll make your ammo". "K thanx." "WTB ORES for x ammo..pst...repeat..repeat".

Unless you have a alt feeding you ores you don't get what you need in a timely fashion. Unless you have a alt that has the extra credits to rip out of other comps what you need to rebuild new ammo comps, then make stacks of ammo..you don't get what you need in a timely fashion. Both becuase of server population, and plentitude of ores and available miners mining the scant ores..demand isn't being met as its intended and is being met through comp rips.

What happened live:"WTB 20 stacks of x ammo..pst. repeat..repeat" then someone responds "Bring ores to F7 and i make them." "I don't have the ores, thus the WTB stacks of ammo post". "K sorry, let me know when you have the ores I'll make your ammo". "K thanx." "WTB ORES for x ammo..pst...repeat..repeat".

Same thing happened live even when server was full, there was indeed lots of ores available, and lots POTENTIALLY purchasable. But for many reasons, some of which was: the supplier was in a raid, the supplier was mining in some isolated corner of the universe, the supplier was busy supplying someone else, the supplier was a hoarder and wouldn't let it go, the supplier wanted WAY to much for a non-scarce resource, the buyer wanted such a small amount the seller didn't want to bother filling the order, the supplier had the buyer on ignore...etc. etc. Even during live people could spam the market for hours before the need was met. That was time standing in a station...spamming chat..and not out PLAYING. gathering whatever resource THEY supplied, like escort duty, or combat looting etc.

A limited AH IMO is a good idea, it wouldn't short circuit the market channel for normal transactions, it wouldn't preclude people getting a better rate of exchange for their higher value ores, expecially scarcer ones. It wouldn't stop people from having to interact for a item custom built. It wouldn't preclude miners from getting a better deal from builders becuase they supplied their own ores, nor making a personal relationship with builders as a contact point for future supplies on both sides.

What exactly would a AH do? It would allow miners to temporarily free up some scant vault space for potential future profit. It would allow them to test the waters on the proper value of the ores they have, and teach them on what ores are in demand, and which to seek more to fill demand. It would teach them which ores are on the scarcity list and retain them for even more profit, or from builders gratitude and potential non-credit rewards and friendship. It would allow them to "time transfer" ores to other players that might not be able to log on at the same time, or location as the miner. It will allow builders to supply other players much needed resources in a more timely fashion, in the process actually cutting down on unneeded market spam, allowing other potential customers to get in contact with builders without being lost in the mix.

Could a player "corner the market"...IMO no. The market channel short circuits that, to corner the market they would have to buy up all current supply, tie up all potential supply, creating a artifical scarcity and then sell their stockpile at inflated prices. A hoarder could buy up the current supply yes, but when someone posted on market channel, he CAN'T control other players interaction and compensation. If he tried a monopoly under those conditions, I would think they would be bankrupt rapidly. Most monopolizers need meriad slots to "play the AH" to get away with that crap. They have to buy, inflate and repost at higher rates, with limited slots it precludes them from doing that and has the added advantage of stopping people from "storing" things on the AH.

I think a limited AH is a good game enhancing idea. It don't stop people from interacting, in fact it actually creates interaction, persons that don't have the same time frame in gaming interact via AH, they also but for the AH ,would never see each other or even know of each others existance, but through their order being filled from player x to player y, they have the potential to meet each other on "the weekend" so to speak and hang.

I would say the best implimentation of the AH to me would NOT include end crafted products, it would be a AH for raw materials and ammo. I would think that it would be best not to allow loot gear to be sold, but CRAFTED yes. This would still force the recipe hounds still have to interact to get scannable loot and not run the AH with a sack of credits and learn all the recipes in one day..AND stop insane inflation. This would allow builders to get available ores on demand and craft on demand as needed. This would allow them to build some select items up to their available slots and make a reasonable profit there by, and miners also.

MY IDEAL AUCTION HOUSE:
I would imagine a consignment method the best way. You have to pay a posting fee, this would preclude persons from "storing" stuff on the AH as extra vault space. On transaction completion between player A and B, the fee would be returned to poster, paid through the transaction by the buyer to the AH, sort of a "convenience fee" or shipping and handling so to speak. Then have built into the transaction a "consignement" fee, the AH's cut being a percentage of the posting, this will help keep the posters that drop a 10 credit item in for 10m not do so. When the AH charges them a fee ea time they do that and it don't sell, they will stop abusing the AH and not inflate insanely. Then time frame...there needs to be a finite amount of time stuff can remain on AH, when it don't sell it need to removed, thereby letting players know that the demand isn't in line with their desired return, subsequent listings won't be so high, others undercutting them. Also I think it would be a good idea to preclude AH abuse to have higher consignment rates past a minimal slot per player to a maximum slots. I.E. 5 slots for low AH fee rate, then ea slot after up to say 20 costing a greater percentage to house. This would allow the lowbies to get into the AH with minimal investment, but those that are moderate to high level to post more than the minimal, but discourage monopolizing the AH or warping economy via AH dynamics.
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I'd rather just see an ore vendor that only can sell ores that have been sold to him. Prices vary by level & rarity of ores, adjusted for faction & negotiate skill. If it can be put in F7's lobby, or if it cannot be on a station, a ship parked outside F7.

The ore vendor would have to buy ores from explorers (all 3 races) and give more money & Trade XP than the other vendors for the same ore. The higher prices & XP may be needed for it to be worthwhile for a Progen Sentinel to fly there, rather than the nearest vendor. This is less of an issue for the Scout as he is much faster than the Sentinel, and not an issue for the JE at all being both much faster than the PE & having wormhole.
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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1318281076' post='47193']
I'd rather just see an ore vendor that only can sell ores that have been sold to him. Prices vary by level & rarity of ores, adjusted for faction & negotiate skill. If it can be put in F7's lobby, or if it cannot be on a station, a ship parked outside F7.
[/quote]

That would work fine, as long as the vendor keeps a record of the actual ores bought and sold. The vendor that just bought ore at a markup and then sold an unlimited supply didn't help much because it wasn't really selling the MINED ores to the builders. Whether the miners participated or not, there was always the same supply.

If the players can set their own prices, then the vendor can just list everything it has at each price, or just sell the ore in order of purchase price. (If there's a bunch of ore up for 100 credits and you put in some at 90 they'll be sold right away, but if you put them in at 110 you have to wait until all the 100 credit supply get sold) Otherwise, you can have a set price and simply have the supply in the vendor control the market. If the vendor sells out, you have to go to the Market Channel for more.

I suspect a more auction-like interface, where you go to a roving NPC and put a stack up for a given price, will be more likely to be implemented. But even that could be limited to ore only, or ore and components. One thing to note is that on live as well as current, the usual traffic on the Market channel is for components that can't be easily bought from a vendor. That's a market that an Auction House could CREATE, simply by adding an option that isn't the vendor.

I'll also point out my idea again for a scaling price system where the vendor buys and sells the ore for more the lower the supply gets. The players would be in more control of the price than with a static system. (Although not as much as a true auction)
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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1318458205' post='47250']
That would work fine, as long as the vendor keeps a record of the actual ores bought and sold. The vendor that just bought ore at a markup and then sold an unlimited supply didn't help much because it wasn't really selling the MINED ores to the builders. Whether the miners participated or not, there was always the same supply.

If the players can set their own prices, then the vendor can just list everything it has at each price, or just sell the ore in order of purchase price. (If there's a bunch of ore up for 100 credits and you put in some at 90 they'll be sold right away, but if you put them in at 110 you have to wait until all the 100 credit supply get sold) Otherwise, you can have a set price and simply have the supply in the vendor control the market. If the vendor sells out, you have to go to the Market Channel for more.

I suspect a more auction-like interface, where you go to a roving NPC and put a stack up for a given price, will be more likely to be implemented. But even that could be limited to ore only, or ore and components. One thing to note is that on live as well as current, the usual traffic on the Market channel is for components that can't be easily bought from a vendor. That's a market that an Auction House could CREATE, simply by adding an option that isn't the vendor.

I'll also point out my idea again for a scaling price system where the vendor buys and sells the ore for more the lower the supply gets. The players would be in more control of the price than with a static system. (Although not as much as a true auction)
[/quote]

The devs can correct me if I am wrong but as far as I can tell there is no 'limited' supply item sold by vendors. A vendor can be added and items sold to that vendor. But there is no call from the client to check how many of an item a vendor has. If a vendor has the item it has an unlimited number and the client has no way of checking with the server to confirm this. Most of the AH suggestions involve a lot of programming and enabling workarounds a functionality that was never designed for the client. The real question is even if the Devs spent all this time to get something working would anyone ever use it? And what happens if there is a downside/bug/other problem. How would you have the devs deal with it? You could potentially split the player-base too.....which could cause additional problems.

I do feel for those players that need/want items when no other players are on. However there is a much simpler solution that requires almost zero time consumption by the devs and has worked in other games and in E&B in the past. Just create an Action House section on the forums. You want to buy/sell items? Post it. I know if I knew someone needed an item at 3:00 am in the morning I wouldn't be able to help on a weekday but on a Friday/Saturday night I would be up for staying up later.....or logging in earlier.....to meet the request. You could also gauge how useful coding such a feature would be for players. I mean if only a few people ever post/respond on such a forum I would imagine that would be an easy way to prove that there would be no reason to spend the time coding such a feature. However if it took off it might be a way to prove to the Devs that such an in game feature would be worth the time spent (once they have the time).

I still want more ores in game though ; ]
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[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1318461393' post='47251']
The devs can correct me if I am wrong but as far as I can tell there is no 'limited' supply item sold by vendors. A vendor can be added and items sold to that vendor. But there is no call from the client to check how many of an item a vendor has. If a vendor has the item it has an unlimited number and the client has no way of checking with the server to confirm this. Most of the AH suggestions involve a lot of programming and enabling workarounds a functionality that was never designed for the client. The real question is even if the Devs spent all this time to get something working would anyone ever use it? And what happens if there is a downside/bug/other problem. How would you have the devs deal with it? You could potentially split the player-base too.....which could cause additional problems.

I do feel for those players that need/want items when no other players are on. However there is a much simpler solution that requires almost zero time consumption by the devs and has worked in other games and in E&B in the past. Just create an Action House section on the forums. You want to buy/sell items? Post it. I know if I knew someone needed an item at 3:00 am in the morning I wouldn't be able to help on a weekday but on a Friday/Saturday night I would be up for staying up later.....or logging in earlier.....to meet the request. You could also gauge how useful coding such a feature would be for players. I mean if only a few people ever post/respond on such a forum I would imagine that would be an easy way to prove that there would be no reason to spend the time coding such a feature. However if it took off it might be a way to prove to the Devs that such an in game feature would be worth the time spent (once they have the time).

I still want more ores in game though ; ]
[/quote]
There were several things live coded that actually did keep a running total, don't know if that can be ripped and patched in as code for a AH idea...but the mar construction project kept a server wide total of ores turned in, and when a threshold for a capital ship was met a ship was "constructed" , thus the subtraction from totals was also coded. The MCP kept track of: Ores turned in, ores still needed, ores used, and ores overall turned in since projects inception.

There were also mineral vendors that were used as an experiment, they were poorly concieved at the time and were removed becuase of player complaints and inherant flaws warping economy. Those too used a counter program, they bought SELECT ores and resold them, if none had been sold to it, there was none to buy.

While the forum method does have some merit, it doesn't address the problem. Mainly the timely fullfilment of orders. A forum post requires A. a person to go off game and make a forum post as WTB. B. for a player to roam the same forum in search of orders he can fill C. through intechanges on forum agree to a time to meet on game to make the deal. All 3 of those steps are so easy to break the whole attempt of resource exchange. And most importantly...lacks the instant exchange desired! Even if folks did use the forum in that manner (have played several MMO were that way was so fail) it could take days or even weeks to get the actually deal made.
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[quote name='Fallhammer' timestamp='1314395383' post='45269']
Would it be possible to just have the trade window function between two people regardless of the distance between them. But maybe add a delay on the items transfered actually being delivered into each persons inventory based on the distance, to simulate the shipping time.
[/quote]

The news booths could be converted into the trade stations. Essentially for a Fee you pay each other a trade expense, depending on the amount and level of the great being sold or traded.

But the addition of this function would change the game client, and the project cannot change the game its self, but can only Mimic live conditions. While this function would be great, Its addition would enable a change to the game that the Emu team is not allowed to do.

Time will tell...
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The forum idea has two big things wrong with it:

1) It assumes all players make use of the forums. In fact, the number of players in an MMO that are active in the game forums are usually much less than the number that are online.

2) Even if you make use of the forums, you still have to meet in game to make the exchange. The only advantage to making a forum post over posting in the Market Channel is that your post is preserved over time. So you can make contact with another player that is not online at the same time you are, but you still have to arrange to meet.

It would probably be technically feasable to create an auction interface using a web site, however, it would be almost impossible to make it secure. Even though the actual possibilities using the existing game engine are limited, it would probably be better in the long run to try and make use of them. The limited way in which these solutions could work would probably encourage the continued use of the Market Channel as well.

Without more knowledge of the code, I'd probably say the dev suggestion of a "middleman" vendor that takes items that it lists for sale for you is the most likely to work. The idea of the vendors keeping track of supply is speculation, and might be supported by the game engine, but it might not be easy to display all the relevant information though the interface. (That is, a vendor might have a limited supply, but you might not be able to see how much it has)

Keep in mind, though, that some solutions can be supported by the server, and not the client. The devs are able to create missions and powers that never existed in live, and prices and supply are all different. As long as the interface exists to communicate between the client and server, the server can do with that information what it will.
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  • 2 months later...
Quartermaster ship was added in Venus where you can sell items (that don't stack). However comps/ores it won't handle.......which is a good thing. The main problem with items/ammo not being made is lack of ore. The devs are aware of it and there are several posts about it.
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