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Terran Scout Discussion


ryleyra

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I'm moving this from the Power Down thread, as I'm not going to derail it any further.

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1314305467' post='45230']
I didn't say a Scout couldn't take a mob of his own level, all 3 explorers can, with the right setup & tactics, take mobs a little bit over their CL. It just takes a while for the Scout & JE, and time spent fighting, is time not spent mining.

Why would the time involved in clearing a mob out before mining, be a bigger issue for the PE than the Scout? The JE might think that, as might the Scout, but for the PE that doesn't make sense. [/quote]

Well, first of all, at max level the Sentinel's weapon advantage over the Scout goes away. Based on your statement that the max is 4/5, I'm going to assume the Scout uses the same progression as the Tradesman, which means at level 75 and again at 135 the Scout catches up with the Sentinel, and the other races' warrior classes pull ahead. (The Sentinel pulls ahead again at 100, and the Explorer is falling behind at the same levels, so you might actually say they're varying from the steady one slot per two levels rhythm of the Trader)

In order to clear out a MOB, the PE has to close with it, unless he chooses to mount missiles. (Which will take skill points away from his other abilities) He is also slower than the Scout, and will take longer to get close enough to engage it at projectile range. When the Scout sees a MOB that is threatening his ability to mine, he can target and begin firing at it immediately, without even being required to move from his mining spot.

Given that at max level a Scout will have the same number of slots as a Sentinel, the ONLY advantage the Sentinel will have is greater shield strength. And a lot of that shield strength wouldn't be needed for the Scout, as he can engage the MOB before it can even fire back at him. This applies to Hull Patch, too, if the Scout can get far enough away from the MOB and kite it so that he is not hit that often, then his Hull Patch will not be interrupted.

The only disadvantage of this, of course, is that it's going to take time. When I played a Sentinel, I found it more productive to simply ignore guards, and react only when they aggroed on me. The Scout will require a little more foresight and preparation, which will slow him down. However, with a larger hold he will be able to stay out in the field longer, making fewer trips back to unload/reload.

I honestly considered it a good idea back in live for the Scout to get Power Down, once it was released, since it would be appropriate. I even considered that the Scout could actually go to the Progen to learn the skill, since Hyperia and the Progen were on good terms. That was before any mention of the Scout getting Hull Patch, though. And I would MUCH rather have Hull Patch than either Cloak or Power Down, thank you. :)

[quote]Terrans are all about the money. How much of an advantage the Scout has in space depends on how much ammo they need compared to the Sentinel. The JE, unless he's running PLs doesn't have to carry any. All explorers can also use beams if they really need the space, and don't think they'll need to do any serious combat. [/quote]

The Scout shouldn't take up more space with ammo than the Sentinel, and assuming he does have more cargo space, he should then have more left over. But the Scout has the option of leveling beams if he wants to, as a secondary weapon that will not take up ammo, and which he can use once he "pulls" a foe with a missile. If a Sentinel wants to do the same, he must take up the ammo space for both projectiles and missiles. Unless he wants to go with beams and missiles, which leaves the Sentinel stuck at level 8 for his weapons. Obviously that's not a popular choice. (Although I honestly did consider it, just to be different)

[quote]I agree the Exploration part of the game is in need of greater development. I think the same for trade.
[/quote]

Well, trade is coming along, and I think a few tweaks could make it nice. Explore I'm not sure about. I'd like to implement some really complex ideas, but I'm not sure we can do that in the limitations of not doing anything really drastic to somebody else's copyrighted code. :D

Is it really so bad to be the worst miner, though? The other classes cannot mine AT ALL. The Jenquai Seeker isn't going to be as good a trader as the Terran Trader, and isn't going to be as good at tanking as the Progen Privateer. (Heck, the Terran won't be as good as a team tank. Be serious) And while the Defender's stealth and assassin tactics make it a match for the Enforcer and Warrior, it is NOT as good at direct head to head combat. There are plenty of players who, either because they don't like the strategy, or just out of spite, consider Defenders to be the "weakest".

I honestly chose the Scout over the Sentinel and even the Enforcer because I'm interested in finding out just what its strengths actually ARE. I will say that my take on the Enforcer is that it SHOULD be stealthy, it should have a relatively small signature (being a small ship...) and comparitively speaking the Sentinel should be much louder and not suited for "scouting". If the devs have created a situation that contradicts this due to their addition of loot they should correct this. But I will note that Power Down ONLY reduces the Sentinel's signature when it is active, and shields or not, it renders the Sentinel TOTALLY inactive and unable to either fight or mine. So under those circumstances, yes the Sentinel should have a low signature and be hard to detect. But a recon craft should not have to "power down" to be hard to detect. Edited by Dragoncove
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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314308644' post='45235']
I'm moving this from the Power Down thread, as I'm not going to derail it any further.



Well, first of all, at max level the Sentinel's weapon advantage over the Scout goes away. Based on your statement that the max is 4/5, I'm going to assume the Scout uses the same progression as the Tradesman, which means at level 75 and again at 135 the Scout catches up with the Sentinel, and the other races' warrior classes pull ahead. (The Sentinel pulls ahead again at 100, and the Explorer is falling behind at the same levels, so you might actually say they're varying from the steady one slot per two levels rhythm of the Trader)[/QUOTE]

No, the Sentinels weapon advantage remains because the Sentinel has Critical Targeting while the Scout doesn't. Critical hits do double damage, and with L5 Critical Targeting, 50% of the Sentinel's shots are going to do double damage, while less than 10% of the Scout's shots will do double damage. This means that the PE will kill things faster than the Scout consistently. Classes that lack the critical targeting skill, (Scout, Explorer, Seeker, and Tradesman) are at a DPS disadvantage that cannot be overcome, even with existing critical hit buffs.


[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314308644' post='45235']In order to clear out a MOB, the PE has to close with it, unless he chooses to mount missiles. (Which will take skill points away from his other abilities) He is also slower than the Scout, and will take longer to get close enough to engage it at projectile range. When the Scout sees a MOB that is threatening his ability to mine, he can target and begin firing at it immediately, without even being required to move from his mining spot. [/QUOTE]

The Sentinel can Gravity Link the mob to slow the mob down, they can also get many things that extend their PL range, and if all else fails they can also warp towards the mob to close distance. What little speed/range advantage that the Scout has will be more than nullified by the Sentinel's DPS advantage due to critical targeting.

The Scout will have to also leave his position, to keep the mob from closing, he doesn't have the firepower to take the mob down quickly.

[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314308644' post='45235']
Given that at max level a Scout will have the same number of slots as a Sentinel, the ONLY advantage the Sentinel will have is greater shield strength. And a lot of that shield strength wouldn't be needed for the Scout, as he can engage the MOB before it can even fire back at him. This applies to Hull Patch, too, if the Scout can get far enough away from the MOB and kite it so that he is not hit that often, then his Hull Patch will not be interrupted. [/QUOTE]

See previous points on the DPS difference between classes that have critical targeting and classes that don't. The Sentinel will have a noticable DPS advantage.

Since a Sentinel can also use a skill called Menace, if it hits, there isn't going to be any return fire for his shields to worry about, and Gravity Link to slow the mob's running away.

(The JE also can reduce return fire by using his coma)

If the mob has Gravity Link, as many of the Manes that guarded orefields did, Scouts might wish they did have the PE's shields, or the JE's cloak/teleport combo.

You'd probably like to avoid hull damage, since it can result in both structure & quality damage to your equipment, reducing it's effectiveness.

[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314308644' post='45235']The only disadvantage of this, of course, is that it's going to take time. When I played a Sentinel, I found it more productive to simply ignore guards, and react only when they aggroed on me. The Scout will require a little more foresight and preparation, which will slow him down. However, with a larger hold he will be able to stay out in the field longer, making fewer trips back to unload/reload. [/QUOTE]

Then the Scout would likely find the same thing, particularily since it will take him longer to kill a mob than a Sentinel

[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314308644' post='45235']I honestly considered it a good idea back in live for the Scout to get Power Down, once it was released, since it would be appropriate. I even considered that the Scout could actually go to the Progen to learn the skill, since Hyperia and the Progen were on good terms. That was before any mention of the Scout getting Hull Patch, though. And I would MUCH rather have Hull Patch than either Cloak or Power Down, thank you. :) [/QUOTE]

I think that the Scout should get Illusion instead (as a replacement for Hacking 5). It would be somewhere between Cloak and PD in avoiding conflict, and breaking aggro. It would also be unique to the Terran Scout. (It'd need some other advantages too) I'd rather avoid taking hull damage, instead of using hull patch. Both PE and JE can do that (avoid hull damage).

Quote limits so yours is bolded to distinguish it from mine.

[b]The Scout shouldn't take up more space with ammo than the Sentinel, and assuming he does have more cargo space, he should then have more left over. But the Scout has the option of leveling beams if he wants to, as a secondary weapon that will not take up ammo, and which he can use once he "pulls" a foe with a missile. If a Sentinel wants to do the same, he must take up the ammo space for both projectiles and missiles. Unless he wants to go with beams and missiles, which leaves the Sentinel stuck at level 8 for his weapons. Obviously that's not a popular choice. (Although I honestly did consider it, just to be different)[/b]

He does have more cargo space, but he's also going to have to fire more ammo to make the same kill, so I'm not sure if he will come out ahead or not. The Sentinel can also level up beams, Progen get all 3 weapon types.

I had both weapons maxed on my JE, I did beams first, and PLs with overdings. Found PLs to be situationally useful, but it mandated a HoDo reactor for range extension & turbo.

[b]Well, trade is coming along, and I think a few tweaks could make it nice. Explore I'm not sure about. I'd like to implement some really complex ideas, but I'm not sure we can do that in the limitations of not doing anything really drastic to somebody else's copyrighted code. :D [/b]

I think they can improve both Trade & Explore via missions, which probably wouldn't require them to alter the client. The Server code is actually the emulator team's work.

[b]Is it really so bad to be the worst miner, though? The other classes cannot mine AT ALL. The Jenquai Seeker isn't going to be as good a trader as the Terran Trader, and isn't going to be as good at tanking as the Progen Privateer. (Heck, the Terran won't be as good as a team tank. Be serious) And while the Defender's stealth and assassin tactics make it a match for the Enforcer and Warrior, it is NOT as good at direct head to head combat. There are plenty of players who, either because they don't like the strategy, or just out of spite, consider Defenders to be the "weakest". [/b]

I don't think that it's too far behind, just that the JE and PE have better overall advantages at this time, and that the Scout needs some help to keep up.

The JT is probably second only to the TT at the build terminal, while the PT is third. Right now the TT can build everything except reactors, the JT can build everything except shields & Progen equipment, the PT can build everything except Jenquai equipment, devices, and engines.

The Defender, has the weakest shields/hull, but in terms of burst DPS it's quite powerful. Hit & Run tactics, work best with this class, instead of tanking.

[b]I honestly chose the Scout over the Sentinel and even the Enforcer because I'm interested in finding out just what its strengths actually ARE. I will say that my take on the Enforcer is that it SHOULD be stealthy, it should have a relatively small signature (being a small ship...) and comparitively speaking the Sentinel should be much louder and not suited for "scouting". If the devs have created a situation that contradicts this due to their addition of loot they should correct this. But I will note that Power Down ONLY reduces the Sentinel's signature when it is active, and shields or not, it renders the Sentinel TOTALLY inactive and unable to either fight or mine. So under those circumstances, yes the Sentinel should have a low signature and be hard to detect. But a recon craft should not have to "power down" to be hard to detect.
[/b]

The Scout is faster than the other two explorers or anyone else, and the Scout is a better builder of devices than the other 2 explorers, due to the Negotiate skill and the lack of racial restrictions. It can be argued that the JE's second build of Reactors, and the PE's second build of Shields is preferable to the Scout's second build of engines.

The Scout's biggest advantage is profit. They can buy cheaper, sell for more money, and build for less.

I think that the Scout should have Hacking 5 replaced with a unique skill (Illusion).

I don't think that the TW should be stealthy, that's the JW's role as a stealthy warrior. I don't think their base sig should be 3.5 either, IMO that's a bit high.
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The [i]Scout[/i][size="2"][i] [/i][/size][size="2"]gains their weapon upgrades at 30, 75, 135. Those are when they gain each additional weapon slot. They have cargo as 23, 25, 27, 29, 31, 33, 35 for each level of their progression in number of slots for goods.[i] [/i][/size]

[size="2"][i]
[/i][/size]
[size="2"][i]
[/i][/size]
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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314308644' post='45235']
Given that at max level a Scout will have the same number of slots as a Sentinel, the ONLY advantage the Sentinel will have is greater shield strength. [/quote]
Don't be so sure as critical targeting is like...pretty damn huge.

[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314308644' post='45235']This applies to Hull Patch, too, if the Scout can get far enough away from the MOB and kite it so that he is not hit that often, then his Hull Patch will not be interrupted. [/quote]
So a TS kites to avoid all damage, if done properly. Which is good because then hull patch won't be interrupted? :)

[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314308644' post='45235']I honestly considered it a good idea back in live for the Scout to get Power Down, once it was released, since it would be appropriate. I even considered that the Scout could actually go to the Progen to learn the skill, since Hyperia and the Progen were on good terms. That was before any mention of the Scout getting Hull Patch, though. And I would MUCH rather have Hull Patch than either Cloak or Power Down, thank you. :D [/quote]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/bawanaal/PicardDoubleFacepalm-1.jpg[/img]
This obsession with hull patch...
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[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1314345601' post='45247']
Don't be so sure as critical targeting is like...pretty damn huge.[/quote]

Granted. I had just noticed that upgrading the Scout to 4/5 gave it the same weapon slots as the Sentinel, but obviously overreacted to that comparison.

If the Scout is underpowered, then it's underpowered. Is that what you two are saying? That the Scout is too weak in combat, and cannot compete with the other classes?

[quote]This obsession with hull patch...
[/quote]

So, remove Hull Patch and replace it with Power Down. I don't like the idea, but you seem to. Edited by Dragoncove
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Right now I'm saying that the Scout would have more difficulty in strip mining a guarded orefield than a Sentinel or a JE.

JE and Sentinel both have options for both avoiding fights, and winning fights. The PE of course would be the best at winning fights, the JE best at avoiding them.

If you want to mine an asteroid that a CL50 mob is hovering over, and you're a PE your options are to Menace the mob into running away, Smash the mob's face in, or power down and see if the mob will go away.

If you are a JE your options are to teleport the enemy away, and quickly grab the ore, Cloak near the rock, hold it open, and wait for the mob to go somewhere else, or fight the mob using hit & teleport tactics, Coma, & Shield Leech. The timer on Shield Leech in Emulator is way shorter than Live, and you can use it plenty on attack runs.

If you're a Scout your options are to kite the mob until it's dead, or fire upon the mob, lure him away, break off combat and rush to the rock. I think if they had L7 Illusion, they'd have an avoid combat option, like the Sentinel & JE and they'd have options equal to the other two explorers.
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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1314400543' post='45274']If you're a Scout your options are to kite the mob until it's dead, or fire upon the mob, lure him away, break off combat and rush to the rock. I think if they had L7 Illusion, they'd have an avoid combat option, like the Sentinel & JE and they'd have options equal to the other two explorers.
[/quote]

I do like the Illusion suggestion. The issue as I see it is that Hack, the Scout's mezz power, doesn't work on organics, which are most likely to be found in ore fields. The Scout would be better off with Biorepression, but it doesn't get it. In fact, the reason Biorepression was introduced in the first place is that Hack is limited in scope. Mind you, an Enforcer doesn't really care if he takes on ships in preference to biologicals, but the Scout does.

At least Hack can be used on Red Dragons et al., but it's very rare you will find a field that doesn't have BOTH. (Which I'm guessing is why you would intend for your Illusion to work on both)
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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314398772' post='45273']
Granted. I had just noticed that upgrading the Scout to 4/5 gave it the same weapon slots as the Sentinel, but obviously overreacted to that comparison.

If the Scout is underpowered, then it's underpowered. Is that what you two are saying? That the Scout is too weak in combat, and cannot compete with the other classes? [/quote]
Nobody said the scout is too weak at combat. I don't make posts with vague insinuations. If something is crap it will be said.

That being said the scout is underpowered in other ways. Navigate and afterburn are basically the same skill, which goes to show how imaginative it's development has been:lol:. It has nothing over the PS or JE. The speed advantage it is supposed to have is negated by the JE's wormhole. In it's entirity, the Scout is a poorly designed class with no real upsides, yet.

[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314398772' post='45273']So, remove Hull Patch and replace it with Power Down. I don't like the idea, but you seem to.[/quote]
[img]http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1310408441466.jpg[/img]
What the f...
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[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1314416214' post='45280']
Nobody said the scout is too weak at combat. I don't make posts with vague insinuations. If something is crap it will be said.[/quote]

That's good, because from what I have heard it is the opposite, when it comes to combat.

[quote]That being said the scout is underpowered in other ways. Navigate and afterburn are basically the same skill, which goes to show how imaginative it's development has been:lol:. It has nothing over the PS or JE. The speed advantage it is supposed to have is negated by the JE's wormhole. In it's entirity, the Scout is a poorly designed class with no real upsides, yet.[/quote]

Again, that is not what I have heard. As for Navigate and Afterburn, one is passive and the other active, so Afterburn has a greater effect, and their effects (I presume) stack. Also, Afterburn has more of an effect on non-warp speed with less skill point investment.

I notice that both of you are talking about speed as if warp and non-warp are interchangable. As if the ability to get around the sectors faster helps you in combat.

[quote]
What the f...
[/quote]

Clearly you don't think Hull Patch is useful. Otherwise you would not have "facepalmed" it. Edited by Dragoncove
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Illusion would work on all mob types. I describe how I think it could work in Post 45 of the [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/4787-terran-scout/page__st__40"]Terran Scout Feedback thread[/url]. It may need some improvement beyond the description I give for it, but IMO, it's a start.

Afterburn & Navigate do stack, but I think that Navigate's effect is bigger, particularily if you have it maxed, and have a PM L7 Nav Computer. (If you have a JE, TT, or Scout, you should get this device and use it whenever you wish to travel)
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Well I would rather have shield recharge over hull patch, but that's a trader only skill... I still think they need a better offensive skill then hack. I didn't even bother putting points into it. The illusion skill that Terrel talks about sounds intriguing, but that sounds like a defensive skill. The TS has no problems taking out a mob higher in level then themselves. It just takes forever doing so.
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Yeah, Illusion is primarily meant as a defensive skill, but I'd have no problem with it being altered in such a way to make it dual use. Cloak & Fold Space on Jenquai are both dual use skills, I have no problem with Illusion having both offensive & defensive uses.
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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314465685' post='45303']
Again, that is not what I have heard. [/quote]^unsure what that is referring to...

[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314465685' post='45303']As for Navigate and Afterburn, one is passive and the other active, so Afterburn has a greater effect, and their effects (I presume) stack. Also, Afterburn has more of an effect on non-warp speed with less skill point investment.

I notice that both of you are talking about speed as if warp and non-warp are interchangable. As if the ability to get around the sectors faster helps you in combat.[/quote]
The advantage gained from the scout's speed skills in combat is irrelevant and not a point here. Take the TW, it does not have navigate and afterburn but it is great at kiting. With the scout it just takes longer.
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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1314505117' post='45314']
Yeah, Illusion is primarily meant as a defensive skill, but I'd have no problem with it being altered in such a way to make it dual use. Cloak & Fold Space on Jenquai are both dual use skills, I have no problem with Illusion having both offensive & defensive uses.
[/quote]
I'd really like to see how that could be implemented...
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  • 3 weeks later...
[quote name='HellHas' timestamp='1314538777' post='45326']
I'd really like to see how that could be implemented...
[/quote]

A small damage bonus comparable to combat cloak at L5 and L7 Illusion could be added, that would slightly increase the scout's firepower but still keep him behind the Sentinel. There may have to be limits on it, since I described it as being able to operate while firing.
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...and then there are TS specific devices and other equipment buffs needed to support these new skills. All the new professions need more support with skill-specific, race-specific and profession-specific mods on devices/equipment.
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