Forced content for HU/optional mission items

[Mattsacre]

I, and several other players have expressed concerns about forced interdependence for game content. I, and others feel that core content like skills advancement and hull upgrades should be free from the entanglment of "forced grouping". I think all but epic events should be "soloable", but that may just be me. Others have argued for optional content, note OPTIONAL content should not be soloable, despite my thinking on the matter, I bow to their preferences, as it doesn't screw with core content, it OPTIONAL.

With that being said, some of the "optional" content has made it's way into mandatory content.

The latest example of this is the Terran Scouts L135 HU. The TS must go to a "agrippa tech station" and "aquire" 4 items for the Terran HU NPC. All of these 4 items are Player made only, and require at least 2 different progen class types to make all 4. The 4 items are recipe items aquired from progen OPTIONAL content. Thus for a TS to advance their L135 HU mission they must get from at a minimum of 2 other progen players 4 items. They have to spam the market for those 4 items, and hope other players have done the OPTIONAL content and are ameniable to making it for them.

If there aren't those other players on to make it, the TS is "stuck" and can't advance, even if there are other players on you are dependant on whatever they might demand for the manufacture. Thus they are effectively held hostage to other players whims or server population.

Should other classes HU advancement be likewise held hostage to other classes whims? How exceptable would it be to PW's needing a JE's input to their L135HU, or a PS needing a TT's "permission" to go past L135 etc.

Thus my poll: Do you feel that core content that advances a classes skills/hull upgrade be dependant on another classes input to complete? Or should it always be free from "forced dependance" on other classes, that if there needs be a "forced group" of ANY kind, it will be reserved to grouping for raids or epic content, or non-core stuff i.e. "optional" content. Edited August 16, 2011 by Mattsacre

[Mattsacre]

And then there are the spoilers that don't explain their reasoning (or lack there of). I made the mistake of not linking vote to posts. Please explain your reasoning when you vote, maybe the rest of us are missing a valid point to be made.

[Terrell [BT]]

I think that we should not have to depend on other classes for our hull upgrades or the things that are core to the class, like their skills.

As to optional content, well, that really depends on the content in question. I think there should be a mix of soloable content, and content that requires help from others. As the value of the items received for completion increase, then the need for the help of others should increase as well. Some things that are optional with good rewards should also be soloable, but it should require much more time and effort to do it solo, than to enlist some help. The Mars Construction Project from Live would be an example. Needing 2 or 3 whole stacks of refined ores from a specific list of acceptable ores, for one pass, is a lot of ores for one explorer, but can be done. Of course a few explorers working together is much more efficent.

I agree that epic encounters should require groups, if not groups of groups depending on what we're talking about. The Ascendant Voltoi in Dahin should be doable with one or two groups, but the fishbowl should require several.

There should be enjoyable things to do both solo, for when a player needs his alone time, in groups of groups for when he really wants to knock over a fishbowl, and for everything in between.

[Mattsacre]

[quote name='Lot' timestamp='1313471684' post='44757']
Glad my scout got done before that was changed.

Hope you shrugged it off and got the Agrippa parts and completed the hull upgrade.

Perhaps I should go complete all the hull upgrades that I still need to do before this dumb idea spreads.
[/quote]
I shrugged it off yes...got the parts no...spammed for a while before I gave up. Like I said it takes at least 2 differing pathed progen to get the parts..only 1 offered to make, but he wasn't able to do it at that time, so depending on server population, depending on persons available, or depending on what other players are doing, it could take a indefinite amount of time to get the needed items needed to advance....thats the weakness of forced dependance...you can come to a complete standstill waiting for what you need to advance, of course if the core content was soloable....then you could plug away at it and get the HU.

Yes, I would suggest you do get HU before stupidity breeds, I am now really regreting not getting TS leveled pronto when it was easy.

[Yuritau]

HU and skill learning missions should never flat out REQUIRE other classes. Maybe you want to add shortcuts that make the mission easier if you get other players to help, but it should always be possible to solo them, if you put in the effort.

Also, making purely optional content a requirement for anything other than the next phase of THAT CONTENT is an unreasonable demand. Especially cross-racially. If you want to force Agrippa stuff down the progen throats, fine, that's who it was designed for. If you want to add an advanced tech dependency to a terran mission, make it terran tech. Same goes for jenquai.

You should maybe consider trying to find ways to make the TS better, instead of trying to neuter it. I know personally, I've never seen any features of the class that would make me want to play it, and finding out about this lvl 135 HU requirement is just one more reason to avoid it.

[karu [WDL]]

[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1313473490' post='44758']
I shrugged it off yes...got the parts no...spammed for a while before I gave up. Like I said it takes at least 2 differing pathed progen to get the parts..only 1 offered to make, but he wasn't able to do it at that time[/quote]out of curiosity, what parts are needed ?

[Lannister]

All,

First I can see the concerns, and I do know that some people like to go the solo route. I respect that.

However, Lets remember that games like this are MMO's anr by their nature social. The need to work with others is a cornerstone of much of the game. In addition the intertwining of the story lines (Agrippa in the very immature TS story) is interesting, it is part of the spice that makes the story interesting.

By the time you get the lvl 135 you really should have the experience and network built up so that the need to gather some Agrippa parts is not so daunting.

I can make all of the Agrippa parts for you and would be happy to do so, just PM me in game.

[Spode]

I think it is ok to have missions like that, BUT they should in that case be optional HU-missions. Meaning you can just get the upgrade or get the upgrade and then do the optional mission.

[Illydar]

[quote name='Lannister' timestamp='1313492645' post='44763']
All,

First I can see the concerns, and I do know that some people like to go the solo route. I respect that.

However, Lets remember that games like this are MMO's anr by their nature social. The need to work with others is a cornerstone of much of the game. In addition the intertwining of the story lines (Agrippa in the very immature TS story) is interesting, it is part of the spice that makes the story interesting.

By the time you get the lvl 135 you really should have the experience and network built up so that the need to gather some Agrippa parts is not so daunting.

I can make all of the Agrippa parts for you and would be happy to do so, just PM me in game.
[/quote]

Lan I'm sorry but I must disagree. Once you have reached a certain level you have in essence "done your time" and the reward for doing all that work is advancement. Having to beg , plead, or borrow others assistance just so you can claim what is rightfully yours is not appropriate. Though MMOs are a social event it should never mean that you are forcefully restricted from progressing because someone thinks it's a nifty idea to make you deal with others. If I want to raid I will look for a group but if I can't advance when I have already earned it then the class is not worth my time. I can't think of another MMO that requires you to enlist other players (there may be but I'm not aware of it) just so you can advance your character other than to gain xp to level up but even then it is entirely by choice.

[rolonos[IS]]

LOTRO is an example of where you cannot level up without gaining something from another class. The Trader classes such as woodworkers, metalsmiths and weaponsmiths cannot go past thier 3rd tier witout completing a quest that requires them to make an item whose components they have to get from another class. The one thing that makes this work in LOTRO is the auction house.

Rolo

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='Lannister' timestamp='1313492645' post='44763']
All,

First I can see the concerns, and I do know that some people like to go the solo route. I respect that.

However, Lets remember that games like this are MMO's anr by their nature social. The need to work with others is a cornerstone of much of the game. In addition the intertwining of the story lines (Agrippa in the very immature TS story) is interesting, it is part of the spice that makes the story interesting.

By the time you get the lvl 135 you really should have the experience and network built up so that the need to gather some Agrippa parts is not so daunting.

I can make all of the Agrippa parts for you and would be happy to do so, just PM me in game.
[/quote]

I'll take 5 of each please. At least when I am on I can pass these out to fellow needy TS. Perhaps you could make 20 or 30 of ea. and pass the sets off to other cache players?

[rhobix]

I think it would have been better if core content like hull upgrade missions stayed away from single source supplies. It would have been better if the parts required were regular loot only components, like CE3K components. This way all classes would be able to finish it, but the fastest way if you were a TS would be to ask at trader to build it. If you choose lvl8's, you probably already have the required ore as a TS... The hard way would be to go out and loot it yourself, and the expensive way would be to go buy something and rip it for the component...

[Spode]

[quote name='rolo' timestamp='1313498803' post='44768']
LOTRO is an example of where you cannot level up without gaining something from another class. The Trader classes such as woodworkers, metalsmiths and weaponsmiths cannot go past thier 3rd tier witout completing a quest that requires them to make an item whose components they have to get from another class. The one thing that makes this work in LOTRO is the auction house.
[/quote]

Ok I am not that much into LOTRO, but isn't that the advancement of the profession itself not the class?

Allthough you do get some nifty stuff you can use from crafting with tierupgrades and thus it could in one way be used to compare to getting more slots on the ship. However I would rather compare it to not being able to reach max level in for example building shields in that case or not being able to build everything before doing some additional missions.

If I have got the LOTRO stuff wrong I am sorry, as I said I am not that much into it.

[Illydar]

[quote name='rolo' timestamp='1313498803' post='44768']
LOTRO is an example of where you cannot level up without gaining something from another class. The Trader classes such as woodworkers, metalsmiths and weaponsmiths cannot go past thier 3rd tier witout completing a quest that requires them to make an item whose components they have to get from another class. The one thing that makes this work in LOTRO is the auction house.

Rolo
[/quote]

Good point Rolo. I've never played LOTR so that is interesting to know. An Auction House would make a world of difference rather than hanging out all day looking for a builder.

Ramses brings up an important distinction though. If LOTR has this requirement to advance a crafting skill then that is not what is at debate here. We are talking about the core character advancement and not secondary skills. As Ramses stated I too am not familiar enough with LOTR to know if this is the case. Edited August 16, 2011 by Illydar

[Mimir[IS]]

Does it really matter WHAT LOTR does? This be EnB Emu not some other mmo knock off wannabe.

[rolonos[IS]]

[quote name='Illydar' timestamp='1313502381' post='44775']
Good point Rolo. I've never played LOTR so that is interesting to know. An Auction House would make a world of difference rather than hanging out all day looking for a builder.

Ramses brings up an important distinction though. If LOTR has this requirement to advance a crafting skill then that is not what is at debate here. We are talking about the core character advancement and not secondary skills. As Ramses stated I too am not familiar enough with LOTR to know if this is the case.
[/quote]
Point taken on the distiction. Since I tend to play all my characters as craftspersons first and the class as a secondary profession, I tend not to think of them that way. EQII also used to work tht way where you can advance your craftin profession without leveling you class,but need to to work with other professions to level up.
If you regard your hull as 'tier' equipment then WOW forces you to work with other players to get your next tier of armour and weapons.

Rolo

[Mimir[IS]]

Am I understanding this correctly? It looks like the old ropa dope, take attention away from the issue(s) at hand by taking the discussion to what other games do. If so almost ALL other games have some form of PvP in them. We could go that direction too, pretty sure that would drive away a few more players. Other games have some sort of player lodging (LOTR for one EQ2 for another, and don't forget Horizons (Istaria)).

I think this was all discussed in an other thread with the Progen missions and forced inter class/race content for HU/optional mission items.

If this is the way EnB emu is going to go just say so, STOP saying that every one else has it, Please...

If your buddy jumped off a bridge would you jump off that same bridge?

[Spode]

Depends on what happened to my buddy

Anyway I just wanted to point out that one can not compare it to LOTRO that easily.

I still stand with what i said earlier. Optional HU-missions.

[cpwings]

First off, I take great pride in the fact that I have gotten 4 toons to lvl150 and 1 to the 140's unguilded and solo. This requires experience and tactics.

I know some skills are difficult if not impossible to get without help and many get frustrated and just give up. Anything that drives players away is bad.

HU's/promotions are for hard work already done by the player. Optional missions, done at the same time, to get some special equipment is fine but shouldn't be required for the HU'd.

Grouping with other races is fine for mining and raiding. We all know the advantages of grouping with a miner class while protecting them with a warrior.
Same goes for raiding.

I have a Progen, a PT, because I wanted a reactor builder that could also fight well. All his promo's were tougher than the Terrans and Jens, IMO.

I also am very glad that my TS got to 150 without the hindrance of these new Agrippa requirements.

Please rethink/remove them and put the Progen genie back into his bottle.

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='cpwings' timestamp='1313507407' post='44783']
First off, I take great pride in the fact that I have gotten 4 toons to lvl150 and 1 to the 140's unguilded and solo. This requires experience and tactics.

I know some skills are difficult if not impossible to get without help and many get frustrated and just give up. Anything that drives players away is bad.

HU's/promotions are for hard work already done by the player. Optional missions, done at the same time, to get some special equipment is fine but shouldn't be required for the HU'd.

Grouping with other races is fine for mining and raiding. We all know the advantages of grouping with a miner class while protecting them with a warrior.
Same goes for raiding.

I have a Progen, a PT, because I wanted a reactor builder that could also fight well. All his promo's were tougher than the Terrans and Jens, IMO.

I also am very glad that my TS got to 150 without the hindrance of these new Agrippa requirements.

Please rethink/remove them and put the Progen genie back into his bottle.
[/quote]

/agree
150 PW
150 PS
[b][i]150 TS[/i][/b]
others not at 150 all solo and also unguilded.


[size="3"][font="Calibri"]What I find very interesting is all the deviations from what was originally stated as “bring back EnB to how it was at sunset”. Many great ideas have been introduced into the emulator and many stinkers, but each and every one that are different than what it was at sunset take us farther away from the game I miss. Eventually I and possibly others might come around and learn to love the “new” additions. But there is quite a few things missing from the game as it was, and I propose that the devs get the game back as close as possible to how it was in live BEFORE the new and “improved” changes are introduced. [/font][/size]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]Agree the TS were not in live, but I don’t remember any forced inter class/race HU missions from live. I could be wrong (and often am) as I only played a PS from start to sunset. [/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]If the devs read/pay attention to the polls it looks like the majority of the respondents feel pretty much as I. [/font][/size]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]I also think the progen missions are so far along there is no turning back on those. Couldn’t the devs take a wait and see how those work before adding that style of missions to the rest?[/size][/font]

[Mattsacre]

[quote name='karu' timestamp='1313483209' post='44761']
out of curiosity, what parts are needed ?
[/quote]
Hull Mesh Laminate, tier 2 encryption, tier 3 encryption, amplector omega shield.

All recipe items aquired through the Agrippa OPTIONAL tech development storyline based through agrippa person(s) in Nostrand Vor.

Oh did I note that as OPTIONAL content, none of the PROGEN classes REQUIRE them to do/aquire items from this for their skill sets or hull upgrades?

Now a TERRAN SCOUT is required to produce those 4 items for the TERRAN advancement NPC in earth station before they can have their L135 hull upgrade.

[Illydar]

[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1313506157' post='44781']
Am I understanding this correctly? It looks like the old ropa dope, take attention away from the issue(s) at hand by taking the discussion to what other games do. If so almost ALL other games have some form of PvP in them. We could go that direction too, pretty sure that would drive away a few more players. Other games have some sort of player lodging (LOTR for one EQ2 for another, and don't forget Horizons (Istaria)).

I think this was all discussed in an other thread with the Progen missions and forced inter class/race content for HU/optional mission items.

If this is the way EnB emu is going to go just say so, STOP saying that every one else has it, Please...

If your buddy jumped off a bridge would you jump off that same bridge?
[/quote]

I am going to assume this was aimed at Rolo rather than myself since I am trying to validate the argument that the HU should not require other race/classes to achieve.

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='Illydar' timestamp='1313517288' post='44802']
I am going to assume this was aimed at Rolo rather than myself since I am trying to validate the argument that the HU should not require other race/classes to achieve.
[/quote]


Yes, it was directed to the devs in general and Rolo in particular. The TS do need some form of HU missions as the current leave loads of room for improvement


NPC:"Oh you want a HU?"
Player: "Yes Please"
NPC:"Speak to me again"
Player:"Oh, Ok "
NPC:"Here you go. Enjoy"

[karu [WDL]]

[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1313509757' post='44792']Hull Mesh Laminate, tier 2 encryption, tier 3 encryption, amplector omega shield.[/quote]first three are items are made in bulk, so should not be that hard to get, last one however.... My PS can build it, but PP cant. both are agrippa stage 3 shield builders ;-) Edited August 16, 2011 by karu

[tredway]

Hull upgrades are equated to levels/equipment and cargo slots available. Has nothing to do with tiered weapons as compared to in WoW. That would be our items that go in said slots at the advanced levels/progression.

Another problem with requiring Agrippa which is optional for progens to have done and locked out most older progens is not a good idea to tie to an entire opposite classes hull upgrade. Just keeping things on a level playing field look at the minimal amount of people who have completed all 3 stages of Agrippa as this mission requires up to stage 3 stuff. Pretty slim Pickens with the low active numbers this emu has when spread across the amount of people who play TS and hull upgrades are a necessity vs Agrippa optional/bonus content.

Perhaps in a perfect more established game it might be reasonable to "force interaction", but to do now is not recommended IMO.