Why the need to mimic "live" ?

[Mylex]

First, I'm sure I will be quoted "if it ain't broke..." but I am not saying "live" was broken

Since this reincarnation is not-for-profit, I am unclear why the community is so devoted to making the game as close to "live" as possible.
The game in its original form, as with all RPG products, was designed as a profit machine. You paid a subscription and the longer you had to stay online, the more money they made - not per hour per se but if it took you 6 months to level a toon, you had to keep paying for 6 months.

[b]1)[/b] - Many minor things in the game I believe were designed to keep you online longer. For example:
- Placing the build kiosks in a different room than the comp kiosks so you had to travel back and forth
- Gates having to open each time you activated them. Apart from the eye candy, the delay is for....
- Buff activation times
- Delays built into the build terminals. Why take 3 seconds every time you build a stack of ammo?
- Extra delays at the job terminals - job 1&2 claimed then a 5 minute timer, then jobs 3-4 ect
Each of these is really minor as far as delay but over the period of days, weeks they add up. I won't hurt the game to leave them in - It would help to take them out.

Now before I get a bunch of responses why one of these was needed to be that way, I concede that I may not perceive all the reasons behind each item but the point is that some were included to draw the game out.

All that delay stuff aside, The game was being tweaked all the time by EA so it's final incarnation was not perfect by any means.

[b]2 -[/b] I enjoyed the game almost to addiction when it was active and was also there in beta. Since then I have played stress test 1-4 and even though wipes have occured, I pretty much have the nav points, sectors, items memorized to a point that the game is somewhat stale.
The draw of the original was the discovery of items, locations, mobs and the missions. Since everything is being recreated to match "live" there is nothing new.

I am aware that the DEVs are creating new sectors, storyline and an enemy (new v'rix?) but the bulk of the game is the same.
- How about moving all the nav points, stations, gates and planets around, changing names also.
- Renaming the items and comps to make them discoverable again
- Renaming and repositioning the station NPCs and kiosks
(on this note, I am a database administrator and would be glad to assist in this)

I really just want the devotees to the original to have an open mind to change - we don't need a cookie cutter copy of the original here. We have the opportunity to stretch this game in many directions that a corporation would not be willing to do due to the bottom line. Lets not limit ourselves to their way of thinking.

<END OF RANT>

[rolonos[IS]]

I would argu that the delays in point 1 are there for roleplay. It's not possible to 'Instantly' make something for instance. It take time.
With regards to your second point I personally would agree. It may well be somthing we do over time but the initial target to to get the 'CODE' working as it was in live. I would suggest that to do this we need to mimic live to ensure all working. Once we have reached that point we can then maybe move on.

Just my thoughts.

Rolo

[Terrell [BT]]

When the code works to the point it mimics live, will we already be in the early Live stage, or will we be at the end of the Stress Tests, or somewhere in between?

[Tyran]

Point 2 is agreed with very much...

I did not actually play EnB to the very end as I stopped a few months before the sunset announcement because everything was becoming too obvious and like you said, stale.

The new sectors, with exception of a few I find them to be a bit same-ish to already existing ones. They don't have the ardus effect which if you were there when it was launched ull know what it is.

[Illydar]

The items you bring up in your first point really are not that much of a problem. I understand that most people now days want everything instantly but that kind of defeats the purpose of an MMO. By their very nature MMOs are time sinks and as such are written in a way that tries to make the experience last as long as possible. But you do make me think of a something that has always bothered me. I was doing a mission (hull upgrade or something)and it was taking forever with all the running around and I noticed that quite a bit of what I was doing required me to fly to far off sectors simply to talk to an individual. Not deliver an item or pick something up but simply chat. The whole time I am thinking to myself, "We have stellar gates, warp speed, highly advanced devices of war, and yet for all my technology my ship can't make a simple phone call and save me all this travel time." Now I know that that is part of the game itself and I can live with that but when I put myself in the role of my character the logic of it leaves a big gaping "WTH?" feeling.

From my understanding the whole point of this project was to emulate the game as it was in Live. Yes, there have been changes and I am sure more will come but the core of it all is to have things running as it was when Sunset occurred. At least that is what I have always thought the intended goal to be. So by implementing your suggestions for your second comment it would no longer be Earth and Beyond. You would basically have a new game built on the foundation of the old and that misses the whole point of the project.

[Galileo]

I cant help but to notice a sense of complacency lately here and ingame from most. Ideas from folks are usually good and would probably go well in the "Bigger" picture of things. The only reason I am responding to this is because of someone starting their post with "Why". Just in my opinion, I dont think its our place to ask why, but to try and help out with what the Dev team has available to work with. For EnB to become stale at its present incarnation to anybody seems to be jumping the gun. Remember how excited we were when we got our first stress test email invite? I logged into Saturn, Im sure it was, and I was jumping for joy ... even though my ship could'nt even fly yet.
[i][b]GALI[/b][/i]

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1312224493' post='43858']
Point 2 is agreed with very much...

I did not actually play EnB to the very end as I stopped a few months before the sunset announcement because everything was becoming too obvious and like you said, stale.

The new sectors, with exception of a few I find them to be a bit same-ish to already existing ones. They don't have the ardus effect which if you were there when it was launched ull know what it is.
[/quote]


I played until the very end as a PS (miner) There was ALWAYS something to do, even at the end. Hulks were like a Christmas present there was always a chance that you could get something very special. As I remember it the ONLY place that hulks were in abundance was at the starter area for the PS. I think as things are added to the game now they are put in by the truck load and should probably be sprinkled in... I have a saying for you... Keep them rare Insert with care. BTW Having an item drop at a known area does not take away the mystery of the game, make the db something uesful again. As soon as an item's location is known to the general player population put it in the db.

just saying

[Lot]

Mylex I can appreciate points in 1) about taking the "dead time" out of the game.

The points in 2) I can't see happening as that would involve a complete content re-write. Perhaps one day another emulator will spring to life that offers Earth & Beyond with a completely different content to live that offers 1) and 2) and a bunch of other improved-over-live features -- that's the only hope really. Edited August 2, 2011 by Lot

[Terrell [BT]]

I could live with it either way, on hulks. A few sprinkled in at random in orefields would be fine by me. Perhaps when they do yield space suits, they'd yield more to make up for fewer hulks.

I do like the idea of a graveyard of ships, as far as high level hulks (L7+) is concerned, but I don't know if the client would allow what I have in mind.

[list]
[*]At most 3 on the server at any given time
[*]Mostly in level apropraite areas.
[*]In well hidden away locations
[*]4-7 day respawn
[*]Respawn when it occurs, will be hidden, somewhere else.
[/list]

If you hid such a thing in Lagarto, or a similar sized sector, it won't be easy to find, but won't be impossible either. Other sectors could quietly have their edges expanded (no dev announcment) to have more places to hide this, as well as hidden orefields.

Most other hulks then would be like live, where you occasionally found one while mining in regular orefields, with some places having better chances than others.

I do think that miners should find mining as rewarding as combat is for warriors.

[Smallyoda]

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1312245197' post='43878']
I could live with it either way, on hulks. A few sprinkled in at random in orefields would be fine by me. Perhaps when they do yield space suits, they'd yield more to make up for fewer hulks.

I do like the idea of a graveyard of ships, as far as high level hulks (L7+) is concerned, but I don't know if the client would allow what I have in mind.

[list]
[*]At most 3 on the server at any given time
[*]Mostly in level apropraite areas.
[*]In well hidden away locations
[*]4-7 day respawn
[*]Respawn when it occurs, will be hidden, somewhere else.
[/list]

If you hid such a thing in Lagarto, or a similar sized sector, it won't be easy to find, but won't be impossible either. Other sectors could quietly have their edges expanded (no dev announcment) to have more places to hide this, as well as hidden orefields.

Most other hulks then would be like live, where you occasionally found one while mining in regular orefields, with some places having better chances than others.

I do think that miners should find mining as rewarding as combat is for warriors.
[/quote]


I think that slightly larger zones with more hidden ore fields that happen in random location is a great idea. Also if you make the emptying of these fields worth more to make it more rewarding to find them it will give explorers a reason to explore again.

[Calatin]

The ironic thing about this discussion is that one of the things that made E&B stand out was that it [b]was[/b] very dynamic, especially compared to MMOs of today. Sectors would get taken over by the V'rix. Major characters would move around. Gates would open or threaten to open or close. The story moved. (And there was a fair amount of story there, though it didn't hit you in the head with it.)

In other words, it wasn't a static thing frozen in amber. So there isn't a E&B to recreate, per se. You could recreate the September 2002 version of the game, or the January 2003 version, or the September 2004 version; but if you wanted to recreate the real E&B feel, it would have to be dynamic.
____

(Not to dismiss the amazing, volunteer job done so far. I just challenge the idea that there is one golden paragon vision to recreate.)

[Mattsacre]

2 credits:

The time sink factor you express in point 1, there WERE valid reasons for each one at the time, maybe/maybe not now.

to touch on reasons of the time sinkishness:

Remember above all, this game was designed on a 56k dial up tech, everything had to run smoothly on a 56k connection basis (most often not so smoothly ) so no mass data dumps and effects could be coded, and there was a DEFINATE pause on things, this was designed to level the playing field for those with slower connections etc.

kiosks in differing rooms, a station is really different "zones" when you walk through the doors between rooms you are really zoning, while you are "in a station" in coding you are really in a series of connected zones with enviroment codes, and data codes and item codes to ea. thats why so many stations are sort of cookie cutter like in their lay out, saving data code.

Gate delays...once again zoning like station...only on a larger scale..that eye candy..it was that yes...but it was a built in pause while it picked you up from point A...dropped you in point B...and then loaded everything you was going to see in point B...all the lanets,mobs, ores, stellar effects etc etc. (56k dial up here) excuse the game..it TAKES TIME

buff delays..it has to do a status check on you....then activate buff...then place buff...then change to new status..then place appropriate buff visual effects..then place those effects in relation to other player, then npcs, then zone etc etc etc..same thing..it...takes.....time...56k dialup

build pause....once again..it does a status check on hold...do you have parts y/n...do you have recipe y/n....deduct build cost...remove parts from hold...place appropriate item in hold (skipped some steps there btw) then light up build button again etc....again 56k dialup

now we get to the interesting one, job delays..that one went through MANY iterations before they settled on its last form..and actually was slated for some other changes, bet sunset was announced and of course they was canceled.The 2 jobs then pause/cool down then 2 more was because of job ninjas, those with slow connection speeds got screwed for jobs because ninjas with good connections had the jobs, and heading for ship before the slow connecters even SAW the jobs refresh. Since the old refresh was 5 minutes, 2 min then 2 more was actually less than the 5min, if you could live with 4 jobs, if you hung out for that 5th (they was capped at 5 then not 6 like now) then yeh that additional 2 minutes sucked.

Why the delay at all at the job terms? Yup said it before 56k dialup! Think of how many steps it took for you to see and take a job...now add every other player doing it AT THE SAME TIME..then think of that happening not just in you station..but EVERY station at the same time. Yeh it took some time, and then when you and all the other players had the jobs it had to track them all in all those mission logs..and populate the right mobs at right location etc etc etc.

POINT 2:I think the fact that this is a EMU and the stated intent is to bring it to "live" as the main thrust of the project, you have to get to your stated goal (with coding and lag issues etc etc.) before alterations to "after live" can ensue.

As to moving things around and story morph etc. Like above..got to get to "live" standards with coding etc. THEN consider tweeks. Given how much Devs have tryed to accomodate folks and try to do things in a fair and most times democratic fashion, I would imagine any changes they make "after live" would take some player imput and votes etc.

[rhobix]

[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1312266450' post='43885']
As to moving things around and story morph etc. Like above..got to get to "live" standards with coding etc. THEN consider tweeks. Given how much Devs have tryed to accomodate folks and try to do things in a fair and most times democratic fashion, I would imagine any changes they make "after live" would take some player imput and votes etc.
[/quote]
I agree with this. Get it working in a "live"-like fashion first, then, when the emu is in it's live phase, start the evolution and move the game forward, both in story-line and gameplay mechanics.

The one thing I could see change sooner rather than later is the reputation grind. It takes a lot more time before you get anything out of it than most other systems in the game. The reward at the end (or near the end) is great, but there is really very little incentive along the way. There should be more faction specific easy to find missions along the way with more than just reputation, XP and credits as reward. When it comes to RD-faction for instance, you could also lower the reputation you needed to gain access to BBW, but set different reputation requirements on each gate, so with poor RD faction you can just access for instance the Inverness gate. As you gain reputation, you could gradually gain access to gates in more frequently travelled areas.

[Terrell [BT]]

I think a better thing that making the different gates have different faction requirements, instead make more missions, even if the only award a little faction, that have minimum faction requirements to obtain. Say -3K, neutral, +2K, +5K. Missions being better & more avialable as you improve your faction.

[rhobix]

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1312271314' post='43888']
I think a better thing that making the different gates have different faction requirements, instead make more missions, even if the only award a little faction, that have minimum faction requirements to obtain. Say -3K, neutral, +2K, +5K. Missions being better & more avialable as you improve your faction.
[/quote]
That should be added to the game as well, but if the start is at -9K or what ever it is now, it would be better if the first missions began at -6K or something... A couple of new missions could become available every 1K or so, and missions could be available for a faction interval of 3-4K. It's a lot of work writing that many missions though... If my authoring skills had been a little better, I would have been tempted to volunteer as a NPC faction mission author.

[Terrell [BT]]

I'm hoping the devs ultimately change their minds about starting some people off as low as -9K, but I'm okay with missions at lower faction intervals. I just hate having to mindlessly kill little mobs to do faction, so I think new missions, and other means to raise faction would be a good thing.

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1312296761' post='43899']
I'm hoping the devs ultimately change their minds about starting some people off as low as -9K, but I'm okay with missions at lower faction intervals. I just hate having to mindlessly kill little mobs to do faction, so I think new missions, and other means to raise faction would be a good thing.
[/quote]

As long as they keep the Chavez spawning as they are it is only a few days of mindless killing them to get into the black with the RD. I saw the -9K on the TS and thought "This will be my RD killer" when it gets more fire power and or buffs

But it didnt take too long to get it to QAR .

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1312301485' post='43901']
As long as they keep the Chavez spawning as they are it is only a few days of mindless killing them to get into the black with the RD. I saw the -9K on the TS and thought "This will be my RD killer" when it gets more fire power and or buffs

But it didnt take too long to get it to QAR .
[/quote]

I got into BBW with my JE, but I kinda found it frustrating, because right after I did it the first time, there was a faction reset and I had to do it all over again. My JT had something similiar, she started around -9K too, was around -4K and BAM faction reset. Still working on getting her in. The difference is I'm not killing Chavez to get in, I'm mining spacesuits as I can with my JE, giving them to my JT, and killing Shinwa. Killing Shinwa raises both Chavez and RD.

I'm trying to avoid giving myself boatloads of negative Chavez faction, and then see them get something where I regret it. Guess I still hate what I did with my JW in Live, using V'rix to raise RD. Don't want to make that mistake again.

[jrichards]

I think from the devs that have been working on this project, and it has been several years, is to get the game as close to live as possible. Since almost every player played live most of us are hoping to get back close to that point. Currently there are still a ton of issues and the current state of the game is still considered pre-alpha so there is a long way to go.

Also be aware that no new content can be added that doesn't match exactly what your client does. This means that the Devs are limited to what they can do from the server side. That being said there is still whole lot they can do....but changing basic game-play functionality is not going to be one of those items.

Now go donate a few bucks, via paypal, so the devs can keep making this emulator better and not be forced to shut it down due to insufficient funds.

= ]

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Live is the baseline, we're restoring what we don't know how to fix or make better immediately as close to live as possible. The game can then be analyzed to determine better and more efficient ways to handle everything.

[AZwoodman]

[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1312412856' post='43950']
I think from the devs that have been working on this project, and it has been several years, is to get the game as close to live as possible. Since almost every player played live most of us are hoping to get back close to that point. Currently there are still a ton of issues and the current state of the game is still considered pre-alpha so there is a long way to go.

Also be aware that no new content can be added that doesn't match exactly what your client does. This means that the Devs are limited to what they can do from the server side. That being said there is still whole lot they can do....but changing basic game-play functionality is not going to be one of those items.

Now go donate a few bucks, via paypal, so the devs can keep making this emulator better and not be forced to shut it down due to insufficient funds.

= ]
[/quote]

I totaly agree..get close to live and then see what the DEVs can do... Just keep PVP out of it. At least until i die, then i won't care. I donate and am 61 so...

[Cosmo3]

IMO the goal to mimic live is a baseline for the Devs. To me it does not in any way concede the original was prefect or could not be improved upon.

A few items in the name of game fun, after all the game goal should be fun IMO, not necessarily harder.

A: While I agree not all class should be able to make weapons, I do think it would make a few classes more fun and you would see more of them if they could just make their own ammo. Easily achievable by tying making ammo to combat level. You should be able to make the ammo your weapon uses.

B: Job terminals, I don't understand why the timers and the limited jobs.

C: Level of Comps on the front of the Vendors Booth would be nice.

These are only a few suggestion that would make the game more fun IMO and not change the main premise of the original game.

[Cerberus738]

Oh yes! Comp level on the vendors would be fantastic. Although I am starting to get them memorized now
As for ammo... I think you should be buying your 200% ammo from me ha ha.

[Tyran]

[quote name='AZwoodman' timestamp='1312413642' post='43953']
I totaly agree..get close to live and then see what the DEVs can do... Just keep PVP out of it. At least until i die, then i won't care. I donate and am 61 so...
[/quote]
If they add PvP, they should allow older players to tag themselves with a 'don't hit the elderly' sign.

Also, write the emulator in your will pls. Same goes to the other terminal players out there. If you have kids and they don't visit you, do they really need the cash more than the emulator?

[EBV007]

[quote name='Knix' timestamp='1312268781' post='43887']
I agree with this. Get it working in a "live"-like fashion first, then, when the emu is in it's live phase, start the evolution and move the game forward, both in story-line and gameplay mechanics.

The one thing I could see change sooner rather than later is the reputation grind. It takes a lot more time before you get anything out of it than most other systems in the game. The reward at the end (or near the end) is great, but there is really very little incentive along the way. There should be more faction specific easy to find missions along the way with more than just reputation, XP and credits as reward. When it comes to RD-faction for instance, you could also lower the reputation you needed to gain access to BBW, but set different reputation requirements on each gate, so with poor RD faction you can just access for instance the Inverness gate. As you gain reputation, you could gradually gain access to gates in more frequently travelled areas.
[/quote]

The thing is, to get to the point of dynamic events and content, they need to establish a solid and feature-rich set of server software and tools. To do that, the two main paths are either to emulate what existed before to to try to design new content. The former is far more efficient a road to travel than the latter, as there already is knowledge and understanding of the mechanics and design of the previous features. Also, and the armchair developers will vehemently disagree, creating new content and new game mechanics would probably increase development planing, time, testing and resources near exponentially.