Forward-Kiting

[Kenu [CDEV]]

so as of right now, attacking a mob at the longest range you can manage either means that mob will do the same damage or less damage depending on the range of the mobs weapons. Attacking at range could also help you avoid some of the mob's skills.

What if some mobs using missiles did less damage at short range so it would be beneficial to get in the mob's face? The mob would try to run away to get to it's preferred range but if you stayed in it's face you would have an advantage.

Just wanted to throw this idea out there

[Riz]

Makes sense to me.

[Tyran]

What you are saying in many words is that some mobs should be kiting players.

That is a logical step forward on the MOB AI. But simply a mob flying away but staying in range for kiting won't suffice I think. Speed buff/debuff skills would be needed so it does not become a simple matter of warping at the kiting mob and gg. You want the mob to use grav link and then GTFO with turbo - all the while kiting the player. Something challenging...

Would be cool to see MOB missile boats behave how missile boats should behave.

[Terrell [BT]]

I think that is a good idea. Means 2 of the 3 possible weapon types will have distance penalties. In Live beams had damage penalties for use beyond 50% range, and at max range only did 50% damage. Jenquai will like this change. The JT is probably the only Jenquai class that might not like this, but most equipment for her hasn't been implemented yet so it remains to be seen. The JE's Navigate, and the JW's Summon will work to keep close. Against a mob that uses MLs as it's primary weapon, vs a Beam using Jenquai, only one of them can get full damage at any given time. The Jenquai if up close & personal, the MOB if at a distance.

[Tyran]

He didn't say all missiles, but rather some mobs with missiles will have less damage at short range. This makes no sense really as missiles should actually do more damage at short range due to extra propellant exploding.

The mob running away is enough incentive already to get up as close as possible.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

hhhmm?
Taking into account dare I say real life.
A laser and a Projectile (bullet) would have a pin point
hit sort of speak and a Missile would be an AOE (Shrapnel).
If you can work the math for in game AOE for the NPC and the
Player as well (Friendly fire).

The damage given or recieved from any given Missile level
would have to be in account from the NPC's or players damage
they would recieve from their own Missiles. (Higher level wider area of dispersal)
Both the player and the NPC's should be at the Optimal distance
in order NOT to take damage from their own weapons.

That would certainly add a little more skill and change the way
we fight in combat now and make it tougher for us to kill higher
level npc with mixed groups of Beam users in it.

Wait ! That wouldn't work. what was I thinking we'd have Dead Jenquai all
over the place in raids. Unlesssss you can make it to the Only one
taking the Friendly fire damage is the one fireing the weapon.

Groups of Terrans and/or Progens with range fire and Groups of Jenquai
and/or Progens in close.

Good luck codeing that.
It would majorly change the way we do combat now.

Phor....

[Ryle [N7R]]

If youve ever played a JE or JD youd know that some mobs do in fact "kite" in the sense their range they lock into is around 2.5-3 away.
Annoying to have to chase them all the time.

[Kenu [CDEV]]

and this would be incentive to fight those few mobs that try to kite. They would be at a disadvantage at close range. You could view it more like a Jenquai's version of kiting, except that anyone can do it.

I thought of it this way, sometimes mobs will have a beam to fire at short range and a missile at long range. By kiting and staying out of the range of the beam, long range attackers will take less damage. There is a defensive advantage to staying far away from a mob, but never any defensive advantage to getting close.

[Indyjo]

i usually dont kite even on my PW or my PP. i follow by hitting space bar and i whack the life out of the mob. that way even if the mob is the kiting type they cant succeed. it sure does give a headache after a while.

UmaXX

[Stoop]

I admit I don't know much when it comes to real life armaments, but I vaguely remember in The Hunt for Red October the torpedoes had a minimum firing range before they armed themselves (which could be removed at great risk to the ship firing them) if the torp hit before it armed itself it would just bounce off the hull with no real damage. Granted, that example's based on fiction (by one of the best writers I've ever read), AND we're talking missiles instead of torpedoes, but perhaps we could have some input from someone who's worked with missiles in real life? Nothing classified should be revealed of course, but some input on if missiles would have a min/max range. If we're going to implement the forward kiting ability would this logic apply to player missile users too (though most player missile users would prefer to remain at max range anyway, some mobs are equipped with beams and get up close and personal)?

I'm in no way saying it's a bad idea, being a mainly Jenquai player I like it, but if MLs suddenly got a min/max range some players might not be too happy with the game

[cpwings]

This all sounds like interesting ideas for a new game, not as an improvement to E&B. It would change combat completely. Stategies would have to change including group make-ups for raids, mob AI, and a whole bunch of coding.

As far as trying to include real-life parameters to weapons in space games, we have no real-life data about dog-fighting and firing weapons from a spaceship at another target in space. At least none the government will admit to.

How about we let the Devs work on getting E&B working as it was before we ask them to write a new game.

[Lot]

Why would missiles fired at close range by a mob do less damage?

I know, it's just for the sake of the idea but it still doesn't make sense.

Plus factor in kiting mobs in general added with tethering and mobs trying to stay at range in the process may get pushed beyond tether limit and double-speed it away with trying to close in to point-blank.

[Ryle [N7R]]

[quote name='Indianajones' timestamp='1311329088' post='43506']
i usually dont kite even on my PW or my PP. i follow by hitting space bar and i whack the life out of the mob. that way even if the mob is the kiting type they cant succeed. it sure does give a headache after a while.

UmaXX
[/quote]

Well yeah that works, but against tougher prey, youre giving up your combat trance bonuses after a few seconds doing it that way (PW)

Though with shield sap at the ranges it is, you almost have to vs about half the mobs in the game.

[Kenu [CDEV]]

relax guys, we haven't put any resources into developing this idea, I just thought it was interesting.
it would not affect players and it would only affect certain few mobs, not all mobs with missiles
and as far as realism goes, generally missiles are powered by fuel and upon launch they will not be at their top speed. Because the fuel lost is not the warhead it would have little impact on the damage but I could see a faster moving missile being more dangerous as it slams into the shields or hull of its target. That's my interpretation of it anyway.

[Tyran]

Less speed means less fuel is spent which means more explosive damage from the unspent fuel.
More speed means more fuel is spent which means more impact damage from the increased speed.

So you would want impact and explosive modifiers delivered in seperate packages from the warhead to be included in missile damage. The further the target the more impact damage and less explosive damage.

They balance each other out imo - no need for long range bonuses.

[Falstar [MOD]]

[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1311320014' post='43503']
If youve ever played a JE or JD youd know that some mobs do in fact "kite" in the sense their range they lock into is around 2.5-3 away.
Annoying to have to chase them all the time.
[/quote]

I was thinking this also. I remember fighting a missile mob, and seeing it slowly back up to 'optimal' missile distance, which in at least one case was out of my range. on my TT it worked out perfectly since it backed up into the mobs missile range and sat and lobbed missiles, while I sat and lobbed missiles back.

I also had the thought of "Isn't forward kiting 'chasing'" ? I certainly think that some mobs should actively move to get out of range of you, while in range of their weapon, not just the slow movement I've seen as mentioned above.

I would think that this would still be rare if implemented, as most mobs would do more damage up close, so even if missiles are doing less damage, other skills/weapons are doing more to make up for the less damage. That is what I'd think right off the top of my head.

[Yuritau]

Honestly, the best way to do this, imho, is something that should have been put in during initial game design: a minimum range on missiles. (ALL missiles, including player missiles)

Imagine a helicopter pilot in the US air force. If he was 40 feet from an enemy tank (pretend that tank's gun is out of commission, so return fire is not an issue), there's no way in hell he'd fire his rocket to take out the tank. He'd back off to safe firing range to avoid blowing himself out of the air with his own rocket.

Why would this be any different in space? Space explosions still have a blast radius, as well as shrapnel. You'd want to be far enough away to avoid those.

So put a minimum range on missiles and you add:

-realism
-benefits for closing in on missile-firing bad guys
-more combat diversity

I see no downside.

[Tyran]

Yuritau, by that same logic...

[b]Impact[/b] ammo should cause shrapnel as high velocity collisions cause all sorts of fragmentation and potential ricochet damage.
[b]Chem[/b] ammo is downright dirty especially in space with zero gravity.
[b]Plasma[/b] rapidly heats materials causing it to explode and create shrapnel. Also messy stuff like chem.
[b]Energy[/b] damage also causes rapid heat expansion of materials...shrapnel ensues.
[b]EMP[/b] is also AoE damage that should harm self if too near.

All ammo can cause self harm...

But let's only make missiles have a minimal range shall we. No alterior motives, honest...

[Kenu [CDEV]]

like I said this idea would only apply to a few mobs. [b]not players[/b] and [b]not all mobs with missiles[/b]

[capybara]

[quote name='Stoop' timestamp='1311341301' post='43516']
I admit I don't know much when it comes to real life armaments, but I vaguely remember in The Hunt for Red October the torpedoes had a minimum firing range before they armed themselves (which could be removed at great risk to the ship firing them) if the torp hit before it armed itself it would just bounce off the hull with no real damage. Granted, that example's based on fiction (by one of the best writers I've ever read), AND we're talking missiles instead of torpedoes, but perhaps we could have some input from someone who's worked with missiles in real life? Nothing classified should be revealed of course, but some input on if missiles would have a min/max range. If we're going to implement the forward kiting ability would this logic apply to player missile users too (though most player missile users would prefer to remain at max range anyway, some mobs are equipped with beams and get up close and personal)?

I'm in no way saying it's a bad idea, being a mainly Jenquai player I like it, but if MLs suddenly got a min/max range some players might not be too happy with the game
[/quote]

Well my Dad worked on the Sparrow Missile for Westinghouse and then briefly with Avro Aircraft Limited, then worked on Torpedoes for the DoD, so does that count?

The answer here is: depends on the missile/projectile... If it as kinetic based proj then distance would count to some degree, because this type of missile uses its speed as part of the measure of damage it does, rather than just rely on an explosive payload. Its the reverse affect of a bullet, which slows as it leaves the barrel, a self propelled missile will increase its potential or kinetic impact the longer it has had to accelerate before it hits the target. So in this sense at least, short range would reduce the damage of that type of "missile".

[Yuritau]

[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1312405481' post='43925']
But let's only make missiles have a minimal range shall we. No alterior motives, honest...
[/quote]

You might notice from my sig that I have only two level 150 toons, one of which is a TT. Adding a minimum range on missiles would affect me just as much as it would affect anyone else. If you want to go to the utmost extreme, then yes, any weapon has the potential for self-damage, but missiles still lead the pack by a massively large margin, so it makes perfect sense to me for them to have a minimum range.

And to be completely honest, the only time I would ever even NOTICE would be doing something like farming low level mobs for faction, cause that really the only time I don't kite at least a little bit.

[jrichards]

Right now a large number of mobs are not using all/most of their skills and/or weapons nor is their AI up to par with live. There were a lot of very tough mobs in live.....the gazers were a good example.....that used warp, huge damage, and grav link to really mess you up. Without a scan blind device the boss mob/group was very deadly even to well geared groups.

The two skills that very few mobs used, which could drastically effect how the game is played, were warp and grav link. You start facing tough ass mobs that can root you and stop you from running and you are going to need to find some friends ; ). God forbid they use scan blind on you.

In my opinion I would prefer to get mobs back to 'close to live' before adding new mob types/AI. Making mobs tough now is easy......but what will these tough mobs be like when all mobs get 'ramped up' to live status? All the skills/AI/Damage types are already in the game (though many are not yer working).......its just a matter of time before the Devs are able to really challenge all you uber geared 150+ players again.

[snotty]

i remember them nagifars going up to 3k speed and succesfully kiting my pp from ~9 km, not fun at all...

anyways, there are some mobs you can "forward" kite, mobs try to get into optimal range and some, like the renegade progen, when you crowd them at 0.2km or something turn around and run away, forgetting to shoot at you.

[Tyran]

Yuritau,

What are you trying to do then? Make THIS game more realistic?

In that case all weapons should have their max range increased to mapwide as there is negligible atmosphere in space to stop missiles, projectiles and beams from traveling.

Then, only on planets, weapons will have less range if the planet has an atmosphere.

As said earlier missiles will do a standard explosive + impact damage on top of their warhead damage.

PL's lose quality as they get used due to barrel wear.

The above would not be popular but would be accurate. There's a difference between a playable and a realistic game...

[Yuritau]

added realism is actually more of a side effect, imho. I just think a min range on missiles would add an interesting mechanic to the game, making combat slightly more interesting.