Economy

[mayhem82]

I recently recovered from a relatively long break from EnB to experience a few (make that the VERY few) other games in the space MMO universe. EVE is pretty cool, but paying to NOT play a game seems a little extreme and shall stand as a last resort, Black Prophecy won't run on my rig, and Taikodom is currently out of commission. There is one aspect that seems universal in the genre, and that seems to be a player-run economy.

Now, one thing I love about EnB is the community. Nice and dedicated. However, as a Tradesman, I looked forward to striking deals with players from all over the game world, limited as the population may be. However, there are two main blocks to this playstyle:
1) Only a few stations ever seem populated enough to be of much use to a trader, and those who have business at said stations all seem to be in such a hurry. However, this is somewhat understandable, with the current population being as it is (although I have gathered a few converts recently).

2) This is the big one. Everything player made seems to just be given away! I understand a few freebies for newbies, but there seems to be no actual market at all! I understand that you guys are really nice and such, but there really should be a line somewhere. Maybe a few trade-oriented sectors or something (similar to EVE's Jida system). I'm not that much into PvE, but I LOVE trade. And just selling to NPCs just takes so much of the human element that separates the MMO from something like X or Evochron.

So, yeah. This is really the only game of its type right now. I don't really want an alternative, but I just really want to let out my inner Han Solo here!

[Murdered]

[quote name='Confused Octopus' timestamp='1302212571' post='38531']
2) This is the big one. Everything player made seems to just be given away! I understand a few freebies for newbies, but there seems to be no actual market at all! I understand that you guys are really nice and such, but there really should be a line somewhere. Maybe a few trade-oriented sectors or something (similar to EVE's Jida system). I'm not that much into PvE, but I LOVE trade. And just selling to NPCs just takes so much of the human element that separates the MMO from something like X or Evochron.

So, yeah. This is really the only game of its type right now. I don't really want an alternative, but I just really want to let out my inner Han Solo here!
[/quote]

The reason most builders do the builds for free has to deal with how small the community is right now and the fact this is only Stress Test 4.
Few others are as follows:
1)Usually people build free if people bring the parts.
2)People here can build free due to the money not being much worth in-game, too easy atm to make credits.
3)Never know if there will be a player wipe, due to this people that have the ability usually dont charge because in the long run there is no need.

Thats the reasons behind at least me doing builds free, besides which its one of the many things I offer in my guild so why not offer it to everyone.

[Tenkaris]

I certainly charged in the beginning of ST4 when we were all leveling up and competing to get all the hot maps. It's just been long enough that the market is flooded.

I'm sure people remember my 15 Million Crimson Force Barrier.

Until I mapped the CFB, only Doc had it and he was looking for 50+ million or something rare loot-wise. He was holding auctions. The market competition was there back then. Edited April 7, 2011 by Alyseria

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Another reason for this is a bit of a.... leakage of items that occurred in the past that enabled many builders to fill their build lists much faster than would have been appropriate in live play. But hey, these bugs get squashed when they pop up so, ya know, just be patient and let us know your experiences, we'll do our best to make 'em better.

[blattu]

i personally like the build for free system.i understand that one day it wont be that way, but i like to help someone i dont know,then they ask what do i owe you? ,i really enjoy saying nothing go have fun now.
i would much prefer this to other games ive played where as a new player i could not get any pm/uber items as i needed to grind out 5 mil and by that time the item cost 7. i would not like a handfull of players who could build end game loot and ration it out to their buddys.or to the highest bidder, who prolly bought the credits from a 3rd party credit seller. then add the few uber builders spamming channels hawking their goods.

i think this would detract from the simple open community we have now.

just my 2 credits 8)


edit if you feel like paying for an item/service just give the other player a tip. im sure some would take it. 8) Edited April 7, 2011 by Blattu

[wmtyrance]

Back in live on my server builds were free up to lvl 3. But if you bought the parts and gave a little tip builders would build for free up to lvl 9. I like how it is now because it is only a stress test. I had a Tradesman also in live and really didn't have a need to charge players alot of credits for builds. What are you going to charge someone if they bring you the parts anyways.

[mayhem82]

I agree on one point. If they bring their own parts, then I can understand it being free (maybe a little tip to keep up that sense of actual trade). But it also makes sense to charge for at least a fraction of material costs if they don't. That bit about free up to L3 is an excellent point though.

[ShamusTurlough]

[quote name='Confused Octopus' timestamp='1302361571' post='38638']
I agree on one point. If they bring their own parts, then I can understand it being free (maybe a little tip to keep up that sense of actual trade). But it also makes sense to charge for at least a fraction of material costs if they don't. That bit about free up to L3 is an excellent point though.
[/quote]

I charged for builds in live, but only unti lI had so many credits I did not know what to do with them.. after that, your parts, you pay for build cost, its yours.

[mayhem82]

Alright, we agree on something! I do have one last issue: Everyone seems to be in such a hurry! I mean, it would be sad if all social aspects took place in a little box, letting all those emotes go to waste! I loved pubs in WoW, as you were almost guaranteed to find someone to hang out with. Be cool to tell some spacer stories in person. Maybe it's just the earlier stations...

[wmtyrance]

[quote name='Confused Octopus' timestamp='1302390889' post='38687']
Alright, we agree on something! I do have one last issue: Everyone seems to be in such a hurry! I mean, it would be sad if all social aspects took place in a little box, letting all those emotes go to waste! I loved pubs in WoW, as you were almost guaranteed to find someone to hang out with. Be cool to tell some spacer stories in person. Maybe it's just the earlier stations...
[/quote]
I miss that about live. Joves Fury and Paren Station were the places to hang out. One of those places had a night club in it too. Weekend nights those stations were full of players hanging out and trading with each other. One thing missing though was the ability to sit in couches and chairs. That would of helped alot with the social thing. I hope with this game they can give us a sit emote that works.

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='Castagere' timestamp='1302393712' post='38697']
I miss that about live. Joves Fury and Paren Station were the places to hang out. One of those places had a night club in it too. Weekend nights those stations were full of players hanging out and trading with each other. One thing missing though was the ability to sit in couches and chairs. That would of helped alot with the social thing. I hope with this game they can give us a sit emote that works.
[/quote]

I think both of them have a disco room.

[mounas]

Earth and Beyond has always been a different sort of game. It appeals to a microcosm of humanity that seems to thrive on compassion and generosity. Perhaps we will some day get to the point where, like in China, we will auction off human organs of those paying for their own bullets to the head crimes made far worse due to an execution oriented drive for organs for sale which Americans and others in the world paid to join that exclusive club, but I will not be one of them.

Earth and Beyond brings together some of the best of us. And when we yield to the desire for pure profit, we will have lost what we are....

[ajsb1986]

[quote name='mounas' timestamp='1302454693' post='38723'] Perhaps we will some day get to the point where, like in China, we will auction off human organs...
[/quote]
......? *Hides the bloody cleaver and the severed Jenquai head behind his back.* Some day? you mean we haven't started yet?

[Telpahak]

[quote name='mounas' timestamp='1302454693' post='38723']
Earth and Beyond has always been a different sort of game. It appeals to a microcosm of humanity that seems to thrive on compassion and generosity. Perhaps we will some day get to the point where, like in China, we will auction off human organs of those paying for their own bulletstothehead crimes made far worse due to an executionoriented drive for organsforsale which Americans and others in the world paid to join that exclusive club, but I will not be one of them.

Earth and Beyond brings together some of the best of us. And when we yield to the desire for pure profit, we will have lost what we are....
[/quote]

Yup. Money is what's wrong with nearly everything in the world today. What's wrong with doing your best to help everyone advance in the game as quickly as possible? Why not play for fun's sake rather than making it like work? I get enough of that crap IRL. In Live, I always built for free with parts. If I had to get them, I only charged to break even. Sometimes, it was more convenient for me to pick them up while the other guy was OTW.

150 TT/JE in Live, with more recipes than I can even remember.

[mayhem82]

[quote name='Telpahak' timestamp='1302635446' post='38911']
Yup. Money is what's wrong with nearly everything in the world today. What's wrong with doing your best to help everyone advance in the game as quickly as possible? Why not play for fun's sake rather than making it like work? I get enough of that crap IRL. In Live, I always built for free with parts. If I had to get them, I only charged to break even. Sometimes, it was more convenient for me to pick them up while the other guy was OTW.

150 TT/JE in Live, with more recipes than I can even remember.
[/quote]

I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time or hold anyone back. All I'm trying to do is play the game the way I like. As I said before, I have no problem if they bring their own parts etc. I'm just not a big fan of PvE. I started playing EnB because the unique crafting system coupled with in-person station interaction (pretty much nonexistent in today's market) gives the opportunity for incredible player interactions, and trading with people offers interactive options, such as friendly haggling, that one would miss out on just trading with NPCs. If it's [i]so[/i] wrong for me to want to be the next Han Solo (only friendlier), then I appear to have made a mistake.


PS. I have tried EVE Online, and everything is just so impersonal. Trading [i]might[/i] get fun once they implement station-walking.

[Lannister]

I think we are skirting around a fundamental issue here.

Yet the paradox is that the game is likely more enjoyable if we builders are not quite so helpful. The thing that makes RPG games (in general) and MMOs (specifically) work is the joy of overcoming a challenge or reaching a milestone. It is why we flock to job terminals, mission giving NPCs, and can plug away for hour upon hour trying to get a special item to drop.

Same with equipment - I remember laboriously looking for ores, finding comp builders who had prints I didn't gathering comps and then stalking specific builders who had a rare print. The end result being an item that I treasured and felt good about getting. I see the same now. I remember a JE who worked hard, very hard, to get all the ores to have me make the Wrath of Kokura for him. He was overjoyed when it all came together.

So the orriginal question remains. Are we builders who build for free doing a disservice to our fellow players by removing some of the challenge? Are we stealing some of the enjoyment of the game by mitigating one of the elements which is most important to its enjoyment?

Would the game be better off if we all charged? I think it might.

Yes, we may be too nice.

[Strayslayer]

WTS morals, generosity and compassion 200 mill credits. Free for the taking; selfishness and entrepreneurial tendencies. Contact your nearest Strayslayer in game, for 200 mill ill build any recipe I have now or in the future at absolutely no cost to you.

[Tradermagoo [GrA]]

Here's my two cents worth.

Live I didn't charge for level 4 and down stuff ( no xp reward and the hassle of asking fng's for 15k credits seemed a little pimpish.. I dunno I just felt the newbs needed a break.)

Then the emulator comes around and due to bugs and various things we could make money hand over fist.. I can say except for when the trade bugs were going on and you got your stuff and credits back + the traded items I never used a exploit.. I reported it the same day I found it..

Now what a year and 4 months later most of the older builders have a few billion credits and most of the early on builders kinda left the game/retired( in my case) or whatever then Vaden came along and stopped charging for builds altogether..

Kinda made charging for builds pointless I like to receive tips and charge people but the way the game is now ( till a pwipe) were stuck in a rut..

Soon I'd like a pwipe and see if we can get the economy working( byakhee will have to lower his stage II builds not many people at the beginning of a wipe want to drop 50-mill on his missions)

And for the newer players coming in there is no way to fix the current economy so expect free builds if you want to tip us do so.. we'll tell you ty for the tip( at least I do as often as i can remember to ( at times building can be a little hectic) or we'll tell you don't worry.

I hope this helps the newer players understand whats going on in the game currently.

Good luck and safe flying and save a yumm-o beer for me.

[cpwings]

A quick history lesson as I remember it.

In "Live", I was fortunate to have started in a guild that gave newbs a couple lvls of equipment and a chunk of credits to get started. (I have never forgotten this).

In live, economy was full-blown with lots of credits changing hands. Items were even sold on E-Bay for real money then tranferred in-game between the players.

ST-1, no building but we didn't care we were just happy to be playing again. One big happy family. Player wipe, some left.

ST-2, building was implemented. Players had time to amass lots of credits and were so happy to be building again, most were for free. Player wipe, more left.

ST-3, was like a switch was turned on and many builders started charging again as if it were live. Then the two player wipes in quick succession, more left.

ST-4, some charge, most don't if you bring the comps/ores. Some get laughed out of Market Chnl for asking for high prices when someone else offers to build for free.

As it stands now, many builders just left rather than work for free. Player-base is dozens not thousands. I'm sure the economy will get back to normal when the game returns to "Like Live".

[rhobix]

[quote name='Tradermagoo' timestamp='1302647236' post='38927']
Kinda made charging for builds pointless I like to receive tips and charge people but the way the game is now ( till a pwipe) were stuck in a rut..
[/quote]
Actually, there's no need to do an entire wipe to test the economy. All they'd need to do is reset everyones credits.

Maybe culling the build lists a bit to up the competition between builders would help too.

Doing any of those things could cause an uproar though...

[Lannister]

[quote name='Knix' timestamp='1302785377' post='39097']
Actually, there's no need to do an entire wipe to test the economy. All they'd need to do is reset everyones credits.
[/quote]

I actually like that idea, and the more I think about it the more I like it. There are people who have billions of credits, a reset of cash to some reasonable lvl (say, 1k per overall level) would sure be a great way to test the economy without resetting the game. I like it.

I think I may have to start a thread on this idea in the Advocate section to see what everyone thinks.

Lannister

[Mimir[IS]]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]My two credits worth. This would work only if …there was some advance notice so that the warriors could make enough ammo and stock pile it so that they could generate credits to build more ammo. I would think those that have alts as miners would do alright as a source of income, but the single warrior player, with no stockpile of readymade ammo may be in a heap of poo.[/size][/font]

[Progen74]

This may seem out-of-the-box, but IMHO if the player vault size was increased (multiple vaults, larger vault, infinitely large vaults, whatever) it would allow builders to stockpile, on their builder characters, all of the comps, ores, refined ores, etc.. that they need to build what they have printed. As it stands, a builder would require multiple "vault-alts" to hold all of the required stock to be able to build everything they have printed. Now since it is a real pain-in-the-rear to do this, the prevailing business model is the one where the buildee goes out, acquires the comps needed for the build, hands them to the builder at F7, the builder presses the button and the buildee gets their gear. Allowing builders to easily vault what they need to go into business, would allow them to provide finished products to the buyer, which would demand that the buyer be charged.

PS Increasing the vault size might make inventory management even more difficult, would it be possible to implement a slash command to switch between multiple standard-size vaults on one character?

[Murdered]

Increasing the vault size wont help anyone much IMO.
I myself have 3 alt Vaults:
-Storage for old Weapons/Ammo Samples `For Guild Needs`
-Storage for L7-9 ores `For Guild Build Needs`
-Storage of Ammo Comps `Fishbowl Comps For Guild Needs`

The thing is my vault would have to be at least doubled to just get rid of my ore vault alone, and even then i probably would still use it for ore.
I hate clutter

Anyway I think the vault size is good enough for the players needs, unless you wanted to store every single ore type from L1-L9.
That defiantly would break the game economy, not to mention miners who are having trouble already which spurred this thread IMO.

[mayhem82]

Ha! I love how this went from a simple statement into a full blown issue of concern. This tends to happen on just about anything I post anywhere...