Horrible debuffs

[Tyran]

Instead of an item having a fixed debuff, could it get a random one when it is built or dropped?

Just to list all possible debuffs:

Scan blind
Cripple reactor
Increase ship signature
Weaken energy/plasma/explosive/impact/emp/psionic
Slow beams/missiles/projectiles
Increase mass
Slow warp
Cripple shields
Increase warp cost
Equipment damage magnification: Shield/Reactor/Engine/Weapons/Devices/Hull
Missile/Projectile/beam friction
Muddle Projectile/Missile/Beam

As it stands a lot of gear is ruined by horrible debuffs like scan blind.

This way a lot of L5-6 and L9 equipment stands a chance of being decent. Missile friction would hardly hurt a Jenquai now would it?

Also this would be fun for builders by upping the value of devices with not too bad debuffs.

[C Del[IS]]

It would be cool, but at the same time it would make balancing items practically impossible.

[Strayslayer]

Just assign a value to each debuff, the weaker the debuff by relevancy, the stronger it gets. On the uber builds have a random high chance for two debuff with a smaller random chance at having two debuff that have a higher relevancy value. It would also encourage cross-race building.

At work, on my phone, but I'll try to explain better later. I like the idea

[Tyran]

[quote name='C Del' timestamp='1301618333' post='37998']
It would be cool, but at the same time it would make balancing items practically impossible.
[/quote]
I cannot think of any balance reason why debuffs are in this game in the first place.

A good example is a lot of L8 devices being better than their L9 ones because of it. If debuffs were to balance, then L8 ones would always be inferior.

You could actually remove debuffs entirely and let any balancing to equipment be done not by adding debuffs, but by making the buffs they have stronger or weaker.

That would be real balancing.

[kjeron]

Debuffs come in two main forms:

Most L3-9 production lines of devices have a debuff found on the L5, L6, and L9 version. They are there to offset the addition positive buff they recieve at these levels. If you dont think the addition buff is worth it, then you can skip them altogether and just use L3-4 and L7-8 builds.
L3-4: One positive buff.
L5-6: Two positive, one negative buff.
L7-8: Two positive buffs.
L9: Three positive buffs, one negative buff.

A lot of vendor-sold, Race-proficient equipment comes with a debuff throughout the whole production line. Terran-manufactured Missile Launchers and Engines, Progen-manufactured Projectile Launchers and Shields, and Jenquai-manufactured Beams and Reactors. They all have a postive buff as well, and better stats than the vendor-sold equivalents without debuffs. This is the balance, their are alternatives, but it if you want the highest dps weapon, it will cost you a debuff. Loot-only equivalents drop the debuffs but keep the superior stats, insuring they are always the better choice. The few exceptions would be the GETco-manufactured plasma beams, which also have a debuff - they are better than jenquai-manuf. beams after all, and the progen-manufactured shields, which have 2 debuffs instead of one, and a debuff on a loot-only (Lexington line).

Just like positve buffs, debuffs of the same name do not stack, so you can use multiple equipment with the same debuff without additional suffering.

What makes a debuff horrible is opinion only, they all have a relatively small adjustment, easily overcome by a positive buff, if not ignorable, and some can even be put to use to your benefit.

-Edit for spelling. Edited April 1, 2011 by will

[Tyran]

Thanks Will for rigorously explaining debuffs, I didn't notice a few of those things untill you said it.

I can only partly disagree with debuffs giving a relatively small disadvantage. Scan blind (30% less scan range) would be the prime example of that not being the case since the area you have vision over increases exponentially as the range increases. Even 10% scan range reduction would be a lethal debuff for those that like to pimp their ship to the max - which is nearly everyone.


The way EA devs added debuffs was as if they all were equally detrimental. But the truth is you would have to give a list of positive buffs to compensate for 'scan blind'. While nobody loses sleep over 'increased warp cost'.

EA devs were obviously too overworked and underpaid to fix this. I hope the item devs here do something about that because debuffs are completely random with no balance in mind.

Just to pick on a few devices to show how truly randomly debuffs were added:

L8 Binder has

Improved Gravity Link
Increased Shield Recharge

L9 Binder has

Improved Gravity Link
Increased Shield Recharge
Equipment Damage Control - Shields
Scan Blind

Ok so, you gain equipment damage control - shields, a very randomly useful buff (maybe if you had a skull shield?) but get hammered with scan blind..?

Or the Coma device, at L9 you gain 'increase speed' buff, but also 'increased mass' debuff - which reduces your speed.

L9 telescopium. This line of devices is the best ingame at increasing scan range but it effectively stops at L8 because the L9 version has the scan blind debuff.

And the list goes on...

I hope the item devs take note of this.

PS: on an unrelated note since you mentioned it Will,

The 'vendor equipment should be inferior' argument is invalid nowadays for two main reasons I think.
A lot of vendor equipment is expensive and it is/has been easier to just loot your stuff from a mob. So by the logic of more effort = better equipment, a lot of vendor equipment should actually be superior to loot only stuff.
The second reason, if somehow vendor equipment is cheap and easily obtained (which it usually is not), is that you are likely going to buy the stuff from a builder. So you the buyer has not went through extra lengths to buy superior equipment.

All that such grossly inferior vendor equipment does is narrow your possible setups down. That part of the game is being played for you basically.

[Riia [LDEV]]

Hi

The reason I joined the team was to try and bring E&B back was to bring [b]E&B[/b] back as close to the real game as possible. I spent many hours researching each and every item we now have in the game to make it as accurate as possible to what it was in the 2002-2004 game.

[b]Therefore the debuffs will be staying on items as they were in the Live game.[/b]

Riia

[Tyran]

It is indeed impressive how accurate the items are like they were in live.

But don't you think you are being a bit stubborn?

Copying the items from live is a noble cause but beyond novelty it adds little to the game.

Balanced equipment on the other hand lets players make choices, something a game is about.

If anything you could leave the old equipment ingame for novelty value and add upgraded versions.

This would fit in logically because a company like Getco would keep releasing upgraded versions of their equipment while old gear is still around (much like cars).

[kjeron]

Tyran:
Scan Blind 30% only takes 30% off the base scan range of a ship, and is additive with [Scan Boost(Activated)25%], resulting in 95% base scan. It doesnt reduce the increase provided by the buffs [Scan Boost(Equip)] or [Scan Range-BOOST!(Activated)], or the Scan Skill. At most it will drop 1.5k scanrange for the explorers classes, and less for everyone else. My JD can reach 34.5k scan range with every stacking buff/skill, equiping an item with scan blind 30% only decreases that to 33.5k, a 1k loss. It uses the same formula as every other buff Ive tested:
[ base * ( 1 + sum of stacking % buffs ) + sum of stacking non% buffs ]
[ 3.5k * ( 1 + .25 ) + 6.4k + 21k + 2.75k[sup]1[/sup] ]= 34.525k, display rounds to 34.5k.
[ 3.5k * ( 1 + .25 - .30 ) + 6.4k + 21k + 2.75k[sup]1[/sup] ]= 33.475k, display rounds to 33.5k.
Total loss: 1.05k, or 30% of 3.5k(base).

[sup]1[/sup]Note: Scan skill is giving .25k more than it should at each level, L1 is giving 1.25k, up through L7 at 2.75k, it should be 1k-2.5k.

Riia:
The Cat's Paw L5's description of buffs/debuffs doesnt match its actuall buffs/debuffs, while the L6 version does have the debuff listed in the description, and is the only device to switch debuffs between L5/6, if it is going to keep this debuff, may it atleast have the description updated to match?

[Riia [LDEV]]

[quote name='will' timestamp='1301748689' post='38087']
Riia:
The Cat's Paw L5's description of buffs/debuffs doesnt match its actuall buffs/debuffs, while the L6 version does have the debuff listed in the description, and is the only device to switch debuffs between L5/6, if it is going to keep this debuff, may it atleast have the description updated to match?
[/quote]

Hi

Thanks for the info, it has been corrected.

Riia

[Basileus]

[quote name='Riia' timestamp='1301701166' post='38056']
Hi

The reason I joined the team was to try and bring E&B back was to bring [b]E&B[/b] back as close to the real game as possible. I spent many hours researching each and every item we now have in the game to make it as accurate as possible to what it was in the 2002-2004 game.

[b]Therefore the debuffs will be staying on items as they were in the Live game.[/b]

Riia
[/quote]
Well, while that idea might be considered a good I can't help wondering why this isn't done consistently. There are already items and much else in the game that werent in it live.

Personaly there isn't much I would change from the original EnB but these debuffs is one of very few things I would make differently. I understand the idea behind them but they were so poorly implemented that it is beyond a joke. It is probably the most failed attempt at "balancing" that i have seen in any game. They just dont work as they were intended. In particular as the level 8 versions are often more than good enough. Also, it makes level 9 devices poorly spent talent points. Those that can use lv 9 shields/reactors/engiens do not have to put up with debuffs but those classes who are supposed get an advantage by being able to use lv 9 devices cant make much use of them because of these debuffs and the overall poorly balanced stats on devices.

Since we have obviously already left idea of restoring EnB to the original since long ago, why stubbornly hold on to one of the bigger design flaws?

//Leandra Edited April 2, 2011 by Basileus

[CheezeBaal]

[QUOTE]In particular as the level 8 versions are often more than good enough. Also, it makes level 9 devices poorly spent talent points. Those that can use lv 9 shields/reactors/engiens do not have to put up with debuffs [b]but those classes who are supposed get an advantage by being able to use lv 9 devices cant make much use of them because of these debuffs[/b] and the overall poorly balanced stats on devices.[/QUOTE]

with the exception of one or two L9 devices my PS uses L8's for this reason exactly. Edited April 11, 2011 by CheezeBaal

[garblesoup]

[quote name='CheezeBaal' timestamp='1302556106' post='38844']
with the exception of one or two L9 devices my PS uses L8's for this reason exactly.
[/quote]

I also have never understood why L9 devices, mostly, have debuffs that are not present on the equivalent L8 devices.

I understand "that is the way it was in Live" . . . but is this one of those things we can discuss whether that's really the way it *should* be?

Having debuffs on some of the middle level devices kind of makes sense if only to provide an incentive to upgrade Device skill to a higher level to be able to equip devices that don't have debuffs. But why would the top level devices have a penalty associated with them that, when full consideration is given to the SP needed, makes the lower L8 devices seem attractive by comparison? It's not a game breaker or anything but it still is a major pet peeve of mine.

[HellHasArrived]

The debuff on the devices go with the added buffs that they get at that level... I do believe some don't make sense also as some mentioned. At 9 they get a 3rd buff which merits the debuff that goes with it.

[Progen74]

[quote name='CheezeBaal' timestamp='1302556106' post='38844']
with the exception of one or two L9 devices my PS uses L8's for this reason exactly.
[/quote]

This is also how I use devices on my JE, L8 for devices that will remain equipped and L9 for devices that are swapped in for buffing and then promptly replaced with L8. I would gladly have all of the added buffs on the L9 devices removed if it also meant the added debuffs were removed also.

IMHO, I think it would greatly benefit the game if debuffs were removed from most (all?) items. As it stands, a lot of gear in the game is not used because it has debuffs. Instead of adding more equipment to the game, making existing gear more useful, would benefit the players and the builders who would be able to actually build more diverse items instead of the usual suspects.

[Terrell [BT]]

I think that the OP, and the other posters, have a good point here. Devs, could you please take a good hard look at devices, particularily the L9 ones during Alpha. Yendor's idea looks really nice.

[Yuritau]

[quote name='Yendor' timestamp='1302620138' post='38897']
I would gladly have all of the added buffs on the L9 devices removed if it also meant the added debuffs were removed also.

IMHO, I think it would greatly benefit the game if debuffs were removed from most (all?) items. As it stands, a lot of gear in the game is not used because it has debuffs. Instead of adding more equipment to the game, making existing gear more useful, would benefit the players and the builders who would be able to actually build more diverse items instead of the usual suspects.
[/quote]

Seconded.

[cpwings]

I hate debuffs and will always look for alternative equipment, and like many others, I skip level 5/6 and jump to lvl 7 and won't bother wasting SP's on lvl 9 devices.

[Tyran]

The dev team probably needs to be expanded with a dedicated balance team who deal with actual game balance.

This is because an item dev obviously is not for balancing as Riia made clear.

Also, a dev who makes a crazy scout sniper weapon also has nothing to do with balance (*cough* terran-lead-dev *cough*).

Same for whoever is responsible for the blackbeard equipment - no balance taken into account.

Ideally balance devs do not believe that WoW has great balance, and are or have been high end pvp players at dota, hon, guildwars or any semi-decently balanced game.

WTB devs that know what balance is...