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PS and TS build ammo


cosmo33

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Now, you did make one point, make all Explorers Lv9 Beam users, which makes way less sense than giving them the simple ability to make ammo that it uses.

I did not say Lvl 9 beams. I said good racial Lvl 8 beams. It's a matter of choice. If you choose to circumvent the pain of having to deal with ammo, you could choose to not use PL/ML at all, just put all your weapon points into beams and be done with it. The only thing preventing this is gear to support it. Adding gear is relatively easy as that's purely content. It could be easily balanced to be PS/TS only. Lots of ways to deal with it.

Or... if you're that much of a combat-oriented TS/PS, then just go ahead and get a ton of ammo made and store it. It does take some time, but not so much that it's unbearable. Bring your comps to F7 and I'm sure you can find a builder willing to build ammo for you 20 stacks at a time. When you go to get your gear upgrades, you have to engage a builder anyway. Why not engage them to build your ammo at the same time?

Sorry, but I have to disagree. There are enough hermits in the game already, why make it even easier to be one?

Edit: An amendment...

There was precedent in Live for a device that helped ease a little of this problem by allowing PS to make a special type of Archos ammo that only they could use. If such a thing was enabled here and made available to both PS/TS for their respective weapons, that might be something that'd work without having to make skill changes, etc.

Edited by Fuulish
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I LOL'ed at this one.

I have a TS, and personally I dont see the need for them to build ammo.

Yes my TS is low lvl, Dont get me wrong I know almost nothing about fighting as a TS, but common why would you take a miner to a battle anyway??

If you seriously need to end up fighting a guardian take someone with you.

If your in a guild its fairly easy to ask for some backup.

And If you think you do need to fight use beams as Fuulish said, what is the difference really to a miner if he/she has beams or their racial weapon type?

There are some pretty decent beams out there that all races can use, Pitbull comes to mind.

IMO other than the "missing" skills that the Dev's are working on for the TS I dont see a problem here.

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I LOL'ed at this one.

I have a TS, and personally I dont see the need for them to build ammo.

Yes my TS is low lvl, Dont get me wrong I know almost nothing about fighting as a TS, but common why would you take a miner to a battle anyway??

If you seriously need to end up fighting a guardian take someone with you.

If your in a guild its fairly easy to ask for some backup.

And If you think you do need to fight use beams as Fuulish said, what is the difference really to a miner if he/she has beams or their racial weapon type?

There are some pretty decent beams out there that all races can use, Pitbull comes to mind.

IMO other than the "missing" skills that the Dev's are working on for the TS I dont see a problem here.

Explorers (all 3 types) can do debuffer duty, Jumpstart fallen comrades, and can use the "animal skin" devices to improve your resistance to damage. The Scout specifically, can increase your combat speed for kiting, can patch hulls, have whatever benefits that Afterburn & Null-Factor will bring. They'll also have whatever benefits come with whatever Scout-Only activatable equipment is put into the game.

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I did not say Lvl 9 beams. I said good racial Lvl 8 beams. It's a matter of choice. If you choose to circumvent the pain of having to deal with ammo, you could choose to not use PL/ML at all, just put all your weapon points into beams and be done with it. The only thing preventing this is gear to support it. Adding gear is relatively easy as that's purely content. It could be easily balanced to be PS/TS only. Lots of ways to deal with it.

Or... if you're that much of a combat-oriented TS/PS, then just go ahead and get a ton of ammo made and store it. It does take some time, but not so much that it's unbearable. Bring your comps to F7 and I'm sure you can find a builder willing to build ammo for you 20 stacks at a time. When you go to get your gear upgrades, you have to engage a builder anyway. Why not engage them to build your ammo at the same time?

Sorry, but I have to disagree. There are enough hermits in the game already, why make it even easier to be one?

Edit: An amendment...

There was precedent in Live for a device that helped ease a little of this problem by allowing PS to make a special type of Archos ammo that only they could use. If such a thing was enabled here and made available to both PS/TS for their respective weapons, that might be something that'd work without having to make skill changes, etc.

i don't agree at all.

i like variety. i use different kinds of weapons, not all of the same missile launcher, projectile launcher or beam.

in live i had 4 slots on TT, and i used 4 different launchers for combat.

for raids, i used another different set of 4 launchers.

and i did the same with the other alts. the only time i did not do this was when i was low level (<=100).

it's not reasonable to add a device for each kind of ammo.

it's not reasonable to add a device to build all kinds of ammo either.

it's not reasonable to price them high or make them rare either.

and it's unreasonable to circumvent analyzing ammo in order to make them with a device with little effort! need sting of mordana ammo? no problem, just have someone build you a device!

the device to build ammo IMO was just a temporary solution that the devs in live devised... for something like the Build Ammo skill.

btw, not that it matters really a lot, but by having Build Ammo skill, you can use the terminal device to boost weapon analyzation on ammo, without much recoding.

now about Building Ammo being included with Weapon skill - it's not a bad idea, but it does have 5 flaws:

  1. if not done in all classes/races, players will be disgruntled and upset because it's unfair
  2. would result in massive Call Forward on Build Weapons skill on most Warriors (90+% probably) - which means the PS will likely gain a lot of money by demanding tips LOL (good or bad), and a lot of money will be spent (good), and they can use the skill points in combat skills, making the game easier (probably bad)
  3. can't use terminal devices when analyzing ammo, without recoding a lot because of the 3 types of weapons. not too bad, but bad for rare ammo. would be easier with build ammo skill, just add Build Ammo to the said devices and clone most of the function
  4. server would have to compute the highest weapon skill level when analyzing ammo (ex, ML 9, PL 5, Beam 6), to decide which level to apply on the terminal. this would be more intense than reading directly the data. same as above
  5. again, using weapons and ammo does not mean you know how to make them!

Build Ammo skill circumvents all 5 issues, although some people will think it's unfair because it consumes less skill points (Build Ammo lvl5 = 10 SP, Build Weapons lvl7 = 21 SP). And it's more logical.

Edited by LPCA
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so i don't agree with your opinion Tyran.

bashing over minorities or ignoring them or discriminating them, isn't the way to build a better game or society.

you can compare that ideology to discriminating towards minority groups in RL, be it by sex, religion, sexual orientation, race, color, country, way of dressing, or what ever.

i'm not saying you do that, but your post isn't too far from that.

You make me feel like my hero; Idi Amin

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And If you think you do need to fight use beams as Fuulish said, what is the difference really to a miner if he/she has beams or their racial weapon type?

I think beams are a valid choice but somewhat limited. One challenge is that at any given Combat Level, frequently a PS or TS could be using Level-N projectiles/missiles or Level-(N-1) beams, e.g. Level-4 Projectiles or Level-3 Beams. Fighting with the lower-level weapons works, but the fights take much much longer. And this for the classes that are already weakest in combat (explorers).

Is there anyone who leveled 0-150 TS or PS using beams who can speak on the topic? Works-fine or dumb-idea?

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I think beams are a valid choice but somewhat limited. One challenge is that at any given Combat Level, frequently a PS or TS could be using Level-N projectiles/missiles or Level-(N-1) beams, e.g. Level-4 Projectiles or Level-3 Beams. Fighting with the lower-level weapons works, but the fights take much much longer. And this for the classes that are already weakest in combat (explorers).

Is there anyone who leveled 0-150 TS or PS using beams who can speak on the topic? Works-fine or dumb-idea?

dido, traders already take too long, almost 2x more than a warrior most of the time.

it really depends on gear, but any day, any time, Warriors > Traders > Explorers

making TS and PS weaker by resorting to lvl8 beams is not an option dudes...

and if you made the lvl8 beams uber, even if restricted to TS and PS, well then, it would unbalance the battles with other characters, PvP or PvE, and create unbalance when fighting mobs (too easy) when people are fighting against typical targets that you fight with lvl8 weapons.

Edited by LPCA
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As to vendor ammo, many weapons you cant buy vendor ammo for. And a part of the game is making your ship better, from Lv1 on up every time you change a shield, reactor, engine, ect you are improving your ship. it would be unreasonable to ask someone to not want to get the best equipment his ship can use.

Well, if you want the best dmg equipment on your explorer, you are kinda doing something wrong.

Basically this thread is about a weigh-off between time spent doing one of two things:

1) Searching for ammo builder and getting ammo built so you can kill mobs quicker(roid guardians usually!).

2) Taking extra time to kill mobs by using vendor ammo. You can get away with 4 zet ML on TS and 4 archos on PS for example. Also, that station vault will have more room for ores.

I don't think I need to remind you of PS's crying for 30 mins in F7 for an ammo builder?

So bottom line there rly is that ur wasting time getting sup ammo made to kill what - roid guardians??

Inb4 I raid all the time and need sup ammo.

That's bs cuz ts and ps are a waste of player slots in a raid, if people let you in they only do it out of desperation.

Again, by ONLY reason for the build ammo skill for these 2 ships are to make the play experience more enjoyable for each. I honestly think this one simple change would see more of each of these classes.

Who wants to see more of them though? Certainly not the raid leader unless he feels pity for you. You will be like the curly haired ginger that always get picked last for sports.

I don't propose building anything more than ammo period as a change. Again the only reason for the change would be a more enjoyable gaming experience while playing these two classes, which is why we all play, to have fun.

Now, you did make one point, make all Explorers Lv9 Beam users, which makes way less sense than giving them the simple ability to make ammo that it uses.

Again I need to emphasize that it is not needed. If you want to build your own ammo because you use so much you obviously may want to consider playing a warrior.

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Explorers (all 3 types) can do debuffer duty, Jumpstart fallen comrades, and can use the "animal skin" devices to improve your resistance to damage. The Scout specifically, can increase your combat speed for kiting, can patch hulls, have whatever benefits that Afterburn & Null-Factor will bring. They'll also have whatever benefits come with whatever Scout-Only activatable equipment is put into the game.

Well, warriors and non-jenquai traders - you can never have enough of them in a group or raid.

But explorers - once you get more than two youre pretty much dealing out excess lotto tickets. Also, two JE's not a part of the main group staying way in the back line is all you ever need there.

Having a TS around for hull patch? The TT covers that already and due to shield charging it is sort of a must in raids.

Having a PS around to do what? Increase your shield regeneration rate? They should not even be in the main group because they are more or less a lifeline so the usefulness of it's large shield is doubtful.

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Again I need to emphasize that it is not needed. If you want to build your own ammo because you use so much you obviously may want to consider playing a warrior.

No offense to Tyran but I can't help but want to disagree with alot of what he says. Except really for this. I really agree with the quoted statement and think it is the core of the issue. The classes have their own specialization's and this means that to excel in some areas they give up in others. I mean if we are going to let these explorer's build their own ammo why can't traders use special devices to prospect?

There are already plenty of people in the game who build ammo and I would be surprised if you ever really had a hard time finding someone to make ammo for you. It helps, I think, foster a bit more cooperation between players to have things set they way they are.

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Well, warriors and non-jenquai traders - you can never have enough of them in a group or raid.

But explorers - once you get more than two youre pretty much dealing out excess lotto tickets. Also, two JE's not a part of the main group staying way in the back line is all you ever need there.

Having a TS around for hull patch? The TT covers that already and due to shield charging it is sort of a must in raids.

Having a PS around to do what? Increase your shield regeneration rate? They should not even be in the main group because they are more or less a lifeline so the usefulness of it's large shield is doubtful.

Raids have yet to be fully balanced. Same with mob skills, or their debuffs. Eventually the raids will require a good mix of both DPS classes & support classes. The Devs would be dropping the ball, if most raids could be done, in their final form, without requring a mix of support toons.

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Raids have yet to be fully balanced. Same with mob skills, or their debuffs. Eventually the raids will require a good mix of both DPS classes & support classes. The Devs would be dropping the ball, if most raids could be done, in their final form, without requring a mix of support toons.

Unless explorers are getting a helluva lot more skills and a lot of buff types that do not exist yet - they are not going to come even close to the usefullness of your standard rank and file PP.

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Unless explorers are getting a helluva lot more skills and a lot of buff types that do not exist yet - they are not going to come even close to the usefullness of your standard rank and file PP.

When the mobs can debuff your reactor recharge so that it can't keep up with your weapons, you might want a JE to transfer reactor energy to your char, or a JT to buff your reactor.

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Well, warriors and non-jenquai traders - you can never have enough of them in a group or raid.

But explorers - once you get more than two youre pretty much dealing out excess lotto tickets. Also, two JE's not a part of the main group staying way in the back line is all you ever need there.

Having a TS around for hull patch? The TT covers that already and due to shield charging it is sort of a must in raids.

Having a PS around to do what? Increase your shield regeneration rate? They should not even be in the main group because they are more or less a lifeline so the usefulness of it's large shield is doubtful.

have you ever heard of MENACE?

the PS and PP have that. it worked GREAT on FISHBOWLS.

you could scare away bosses to fight first his buddies. or scare away mobs from the medics at the heal spots.

and of course, once the new skills are in action, like Afterburn and Nullfactor Field for TS, these clases will be even more useful in raids.

menace, befriend and enrage are overlooked skills that are / used to be really useful in LIVE, when combined with a debuff Psionic device (Profiler on TT for example). of these 3, i used a lot MENACE and BEFRIEND at my hosted raids.

i did fly around with my TT and PS menacing and befriending everything on these raids. also for the record, you can befriend (lvl7) and then HEAL players and even DEBUFF the mobs without getting aggroed! just don't shoot ahahaha

oh and before you start laughing, i'm going to say, i think i know a bit about it because i maxed the skills and i joined over 30 fbs by the end of the game... they WORKED.

on the contrary, you don't seem to know much about this.

maybe you didn't joined raids in Live? maybe you forgot how hard it was?

let me remind you: M*A*S*H tactics - which was used a lot in Orion:

* 1 JE/PS (and now TS, so Explorers) for Jumpstart

* 1 TT (and now JS/PP) for Hull Patch and/or Recharge Shields (better with TT)

* 1 JD for Summon

* 3 Warriors to... KILL!

this was the build of each and every group that joined fishbowls in Orion Live.

each FB had at very least 4 groups of these (24 players).

i joined raids which had close to 100 players! laggy, but fun and fast!

had you not have a TT? you're always dead

had you not have a JD? you're dead sooner

had you not have a Explorer? you're not getting a JS any soon

also, Explorers and Jenquai in general were famous for mega - ultra - super buffing, something that TS and PS have PLENTY too. even TTs helped out a lot, if not just with the GreaseMonkey. my TT for example, had over 10 devices just for buffing. now imagine a Explorer...

support characters like the Explorers and Traders were always important in live.

a successful FB raid always included those.

a unsuccessful FB raid or too much XP debt meant some of those were lacking.

and this was valid for many raids, like V'rix, Bogerils and Mordana (just not usually the same tactics, but was doable too).

need other good skills to think of Explorers as good classes?

Compulsory Contemplation. Nullfactor field. Afterburn. just wait for it.

you're making me mad, man. beyond reasonable.

why can't you accept that Explorers are playable characters too?

don't wan't to play them? don't want to understand them? fine.

but leave the topic then and let us be thinking on the matter, ok? don't troll.

a final note: this game as is, is in beta or alpha stage. it's normal that things don't work as good as they should, because the game is still being developed. and that includes the explorer classes and the raids and the missing skills.

Edited by LPCA
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about the stacks, Knix, i don't agree either. that's circumventing the limits on inventory and vault. does not makes sense from a point of logic (can't store more than you can physically) and from a point of gameplay (whats the point of a limited vault then? might as well make it unlimited space).

There is nothing logical when it comes to inventory and vault space to begin with. You can store enough components to build several hundred stacks of ammo in just a few slots, so why can't you store the ammo in the same amount of space when it's done? Besides, there are precedents. Does anyone remember the ore compressors?

Besides, I would question the need to limit cargo space any day. I see only a few not so important reasons to do it: No limit makes it too hard to find something, limit storage capacity on servers and increased competition and collaboration. When cargo space gets so limited people create mule characters just to store stuff, the limitations are too harsh in my opinion. Having to use mules just adds more to do takes time away from game play that could have been more productive and fun.

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There is nothing logical when it comes to inventory and vault space to begin with. You can store enough components to build several hundred stacks of ammo in just a few slots, so why can't you store the ammo in the same amount of space when it's done? Besides, there are precedents. Does anyone remember the ore compressors?

Besides, I would question the need to limit cargo space any day. I see only a few not so important reasons to do it: No limit makes it too hard to find something, limit storage capacity on servers and increased competition and collaboration. When cargo space gets so limited people create mule characters just to store stuff, the limitations are too harsh in my opinion. Having to use mules just adds more to do takes time away from game play that could have been more productive and fun.

actually, besides organization, competition, gameplay issues like making the game too easy if you have infinite room, there's an extra reason - it is just not possible. computers have limits. database servers have limits. the packet transfer methodology has limits too. and so does the enb client.

the vault and inv system does have a major flaw, that makes it a bit unlogical, but not unbereably unlogical.

it would be better if it was based on weight (eve and wow i think, also champions of norrath) or on shape (diablo), but then it would be complicated to manage it.

i like diablo system in diablo. its fun to organize it. but it's not an MMO.

in a MMO, where we don't have that much time to organize stuff, i prefer a simple method.

regarding skills, and as to why they make those classes enjoyable and useful, check my post here

short resume bellow that includes only the Explorer and Trader skills.

...

(skills that mostly provide stealth, therefore need to be instant cast, but delay-able to avoid abuse)

Cloak (Explore) (JE, JS, JD)

Powerdown (Combat) (PS)

(skills that mostly buff or repair)

Create Wormhole (Explore) (JE)

Environment Shield (Explore) (JE)

Jumpstart (Explore) (JE, PS, TS)

Reactor Optimization (?) (JS) - increases reactor capacity and recharge rate for caster or group

Recharge Shields (Combat) (JS, PP, TT)

Call Forward (?) (PS) - call forward a skill over target

Repulsor Field (Explore) (PS)

Afterburn (Combat) (TS) - greatly increase movement speed for short durations over caster or group

Hull Patch (Combat) (TS, TT)

Nullfactor Field (Combat) (TS) - field which counteract environmental hazard over caster or group

Shield Charging (Combat) (TT)

(skills that mostly displace targets, confuse them or attack them)

Shield Inversion (Combat) (PP, PW)

Fold Space (Explore) (JE, JS, JD)

Gravity Link (Combat) (PS, PW)

Menace (Combat) (PS, PP)

Hacking (Combat) (TS, TE)

Befriend (Combat) (TT)

(skills that mostly cause massive damage to targets or give big advantages over them)

Compulsory Contemplation (?) (JE) - confuse a single target (attacks any nearby target, hostile and friendly)

Shield Leech (Explore) (JE)

Charm (?) (JS) - converts target for a short amount of time

Turtle/Quick Fire (?) (PP, PW) - large shield over caster or group for a short amount of time

Impervious Haven (?) (TT) - invulnerability over caster for a short amount of time

...

Edited by LPCA
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Comments on your manucript in bold:

have you ever heard of MENACE?

the PS and PP have that. it worked GREAT on FISHBOWLS.

It's much better on a PP, despite it only being L5. Simply because a PP also has the damage of a warrior and healing of the trader.

you could scare away bosses to fight first his buddies. or scare away mobs from the medics at the heal spots.

and of course, once the new skills are in action, like Afterburn and Nullfactor Field for TS, these clases will be even more useful in raids.

Afterburn useful in a raid, hmmm...very doubtful.

menace, befriend and enrage are overlooked skills that are / used to be really useful in LIVE, when combined with a debuff Psionic device (Profiler on TT for example). of these 3, i used a lot MENACE and BEFRIEND at my hosted raids.

Menace covered by PP, befriend = trader, enrage = warrior. That has nothing to do with how useless TS and PS are.

i did fly around with my TT and PS menacing and befriending everything on these raids. also for the record, you can befriend (lvl7) and then HEAL players and even DEBUFF the mobs without getting aggroed! just don't shoot ahahaha

oh and before you start laughing, i'm going to say, i think i know a bit about it because i maxed the skills and i joined over 30 fbs by the end of the game... they WORKED.

Only 30? amateur

on the contrary, you don't seem to know much about this.

maybe you didn't joined raids in Live? maybe you forgot how hard it was?

let me remind you: M*A*S*H tactics - which was used a lot in Orion:

* 1 JE/PS (and now TS, so Explorers) for Jumpstart

* 1 TT (and now JS/PP) for Hull Patch and/or Recharge Shields (better with TT)

* 1 JD for Summon

* 3 Warriors to... KILL!

this was the build of each and every group that joined fishbowls in Orion Live.

each FB had at very least 4 groups of these (24 players).

i joined raids which had close to 100 players! laggy, but fun and fast!

had you not have a TT? you're always dead

had you not have a JD? you're dead sooner

had you not have a Explorer? you're not getting a JS any soon

What are you trying to prove here? That you used to use n00b raid builds?

also, Explorers and Jenquai in general were famous for mega - ultra - super buffing, something that TS and PS have PLENTY too. even TTs helped out a lot, if not just with the GreaseMonkey. my TT for example, had over 10 devices just for buffing. now imagine a Explorer...

The PS has mainly shield regeneration buffs...you call that super buffing? The JE can buff so much better...

support characters like the Explorers and Traders were always important in live. Captain obvious?

a successful FB raid always included those.

a unsuccessful FB raid or too much XP debt meant some of those were lacking.

and this was valid for many raids, like V'rix, Bogerils and Mordana (just not usually the same tactics, but was doable too).

need other good skills to think of Explorers as good classes?

Compulsory Contemplation. Nullfactor field. Afterburn. just wait for it.

They don't outweigh the uselessness of the PS and TS at other things.

you're making me mad, man. beyond reasonable. U MAD

why can't you accept that Explorers are playable characters too?

They are but the TS and PS are useless. The JE is great.

don't wan't to play them? don't want to understand them? fine.

Beyond understanding them is seeing through them. I do that and can only say that they are poor hybrids.

but leave the topic then and let us be thinking on the matter, ok? don't troll.

It's not my fault you don't see the light. I guess you will have to learn it the hard way and create a TS and PS with high expectations only to realize they are not needed at raids and are outmined by the JE.

a final note: this game as is, is in beta or alpha stage. it's normal that things don't work as good as they should, because the game is still being developed. and that includes the explorer classes and the raids and the missing skills.

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you're making me mad, man. beyond reasonable.

why can't you accept that Explorers are playable characters too?

don't wan't to play them? don't want to understand them? fine.

Can we add to this list:

want to build ammo? don't play an explorer

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Can we add to this list:

want to build ammo? don't play an explorer

++

Ya'll need to simmer down a bit. Explorers aren't getting ammo building, it just doesn't make the least bit of sense for an explorer, and it's not going to happen. Furthermore, explorers are certainly useful in combat. The TS isn't at the moment, but that's because he's missing two of his core skills. If nothing else, the TS can move fast enough to perform bombing runs on a mob if the player in charge of it is tactful enough.

Anyway, explorers aren't that bad. Ain't gonna happen. Deal.

P.S. Just because you disagree with someone on this issue doesn't mean they're a worthless piece of human garbage that deserves to be ridiculed, beaten, and left on a deserted island with the cast of jersey shore. People who disagree with you are human too - just thought I'd throw in a little reminder of that fact. More hostility is going to get this thread locked quickly.

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P.S. Just because you disagree with someone on this issue doesn't mean they're a worthless piece of human garbage that deserves to be ridiculed, beaten, and left on a deserted island with the cast of jersey shore. People who disagree with you are human too - just thought I'd throw in a little reminder of that fact. More hostility is going to get this thread locked quickly.

Left where with who? No need for profanity, C Del... =/

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Comments on your manucript in bold:

.... bla bla bla ...

not going to comment any further. waste of time.

++

Ya'll need to simmer down a bit. Explorers aren't getting ammo building, it just doesn't make the least bit of sense for an explorer, and it's not going to happen. Furthermore, explorers are certainly useful in combat. The TS isn't at the moment, but that's because he's missing two of his core skills. If nothing else, the TS can move fast enough to perform bombing runs on a mob if the player in charge of it is tactful enough.

Anyway, explorers aren't that bad. Ain't gonna happen. Deal.

P.S. Just because you disagree with someone on this issue doesn't mean they're a worthless piece of human garbage that deserves to be ridiculed, beaten, and left on a deserted island with the cast of jersey shore. People who disagree with you are human too - just thought I'd throw in a little reminder of that fact. More hostility is going to get this thread locked quickly.

ok. please think of vendors for explorers only =P

Edited by LPCA
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