PS and TS build ammo

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

I think it's more like saying a hunter can assemble his own ammunition. I know many hunters do, but I don't think many would be able to build their own rifle.

Which us why in live the Sentinel got their device to make rudimentary ammunition that was not the high-quality sort you make in industry to the nth degree of standard, or for a kind of custom approach to creating archos ammunition.

The game has set classes / skills. It always did. Explorers are unlikely to ever build their own ammunition from terminals. Using devices to make ' home-made ammunition ~ 150% quality ' happened for the Progen Sentinel, the other explorer class not needing ammunition at the time from live (begins with J, my Progen mind can't think of this race at the moment, can't be that important). This though was done by feeding raw ore into the device and miracuously seeing ammo appear in your cargo hold.

I believe the device was a level 9 one so if you couldn't equip level 9 devices you couldn't make the level 9 archos ' home made ' ammo. Also this home made ammo was non-tradable, that you made only you could use it.

There is a Market channel and in game credits. The two may go together!

Yeh maybe the TS should get their own level 9 device for one type of missile that could creater lower quality ammunition. Then again, missiles are a lot more complex so an effect will be needed to see if the missile miss-fires and then jams in the missile launcher, requiring the TS to remove the missile launcher and re-install.

Then when its' launched did you code the friend/foe recognition? Will it come back to you!! Has it armed? Unlike projectiles which are rather simple, the missiles tend to be more complex!!

How many of your hunter friends know how to make a missile?

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

This only applies to racial weakness, there are other cases where a person can build a L9 something that they cannot use.

JT can build L9 devices, but she cannot use them. If she were switched from Engine 9, Device 8 to Engines 8, Device 9, she would then be able to build L9 engines, without being able to use them. She has all builds except shields. (racial weakness)

TT can build L9 Devices but he cannot use them.

i know, but does not make much sense. its a bit stupid.

its like having a license to use a higher tech level, rather than relying on strengths and weaknesses

home made missiles =P

ahahaha

http://www.metacafe....rocket_missile/

http://www.google.pt...lient=firefox-a

Edited February 23, 2011 by LPCA

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

got a semi-solution for the problem of AMMO on TS and PS:

place a vendor in some station, or vendor in the outer space, or vendor in a new small station, accessible to explorers only, somewhere in the galaxy, at a common access point, with no restrictions (unlike BBW).

this vendor could sell any kind of ammo, but all the ammo he sells would be non-manuf and non-trade, (storable okay).

the ammo could be same price as normal vendor ammo, or less expensive. think of it as a black market, with special prices.

this way any explorer can buy, _not build_, ammo for any of their weapons, without resorting to players.

since the ammo is non-trade, non-manuf, and the vendor is accessible only to explorers, no builder can take advantage of it to analyse rare ammo.

id say, place the vendor in beta hydri (glenn, slayton) or sol (saturn) or aragoth (ragnarok / traders fort)

a sector with pirates would make sense.

Edited February 23, 2011 by LPCA

[Calatin]

I know some of you feel This Is the Way It Was Meant To Be, but I gotta tell you I'm thinking of abandoning my PS just because the ammo situation is such a PITA. That or going with the non-racial weapon of beams. (Which hurts because they're usually a level behind the curve.) I think it's fine to make the players rely on each other, but not to make them do so every couple hours.

It's not a pain just because of the need to seek out a builder for non-standard ammo (e.g. Prototypes) or 200% ammo (yeah, DPS makes life easier), it's a pain sometimes just to fly four sectors to a vendor just to restock generic ammo. "Where's the nearest base carrying Crossbow ammo?" (or Bayonet or whatever). Everyone else just flies into the nearest base and builds a few stacks of ammo from the parts in 3-4 slots in their vault.

It's early enough in my PS's career (level 57 or so) that starting over isn't that big a deal. But I think it's a problem that we have two classes that have an ongoing problem with logistics. A PS is still going to rely on other builders for Weapons, Engines, Reactors, and probably Shields and/or Devices as well. A fix to the ammo problem isn't going to kill their market or inter-class reliance; it's just going to make the PS and TS much more playable.

[Terrell [BT]]

The game has set classes / skills. It always did. Explorers are unlikely to ever build their own ammunition from terminals. Using devices to make ' home-made ammunition ~ 150% quality ' happened for the Progen Sentinel, the other explorer class not needing ammunition at the time from live (begins with J, my Progen mind can't think of this race at the moment, can't be that important). This though was done by feeding raw ore into the device and miracuously seeing ammo appear in your cargo hold.

The JE got something as well, we got to make the Gaze of Amah, if we did the Mars Construction Project. It was manufacturable to 200%, unique, non-tradeable. Obtaining the print disk required 15 passes, and building it required at least 1 maxed build skill. One of the parts required could only be obtained in BBW, one could be obtained at Earth Station, Arx Magister, and Jove's Fury, and one could only be obtained from the MCP (required 1 pass). I can't remember all the ores required to get one pass, but there were 3 ores they accepted, and to get a pass you needed one full refined stack of 2 of the 3 ores. The ores in question weren't rare, you could find a few per trip, but it would take a while to mine all the ores required to get the print.

[rhobix]

How many of your hunter friends know how to make a missile?

None, then again, none of them hunts with missiles

[Lone-Gunman]

I played a LVL 150 PS in Live and am trying to level a TS now.

I care less about being able to build ammo, and more about being able to buy ammo.

A good example is the Type B Explosive missiles that are only looted or PM.

The Type B Chem and EMP rockets are obtainable at some stations. Serioulsy thos eexplosive rockets have to be PMed if my scout wants to use them?!?!. We are not talking Blacksun ammo here.

the point of my rant is that alot of ammo (other then the obvious exceptions) should be purchaseable at vendors

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

well then, the vendor for the ammo, explorer only, like i explained above, would do that, right?

[cosmo33]

I started this thread and have watched as it got away from the original thought of PS and TS building its own ammo. There have been a few good solutions, maybe a vendor that sells 200% ammo just for Explorers.

My feeling on this are like another poster stated, its a real pain to find someone to build your ammo sometimes. people are good about helping, but when your in VG and someone says come to F7, well you get the idea.

All I'm proposing is a solution to make these two classes more enjoyable to play. It in no way should be tied to Building Weapons or anything else, just the ammo that the two classes use. Anyone that has or is playing this class will tell you this one change would make the class much more desirable to play for everyone.

I am in no way wanting to get away from the original EnB, but nothing says a few things could not be improved on as long as you don't destroy the premise of the game.

[garblesoup]

Well, there's a big difference between hunting out a builder every 10-20 levels to get a new shield/reactor/engine/gun... and having to hunt out a builder every single day to build ammunition. It's like the difference between buying a new car and buying groceries. I don't mind driving 100 miles for that new car, but I wouldn't do it every time I need a loaf of bread.

So what are the alternatives?

1. Run an alt just to build your ammo

2. Seek out an ammo builder on a regular basis, sometimes multiple times per day

3. Throw all the ores and prototypes out of your vault so you have ammo space and don't need help as often

4. Convert to beams

5. Only use vendor-bought ammo and avoid weapons that use other types (e.g. proto weapons)

6. ?

Look at that - right off the top we see 5 choices. That's one of the aspects of the game that I think makes it so great - we DO have choices AND we have to "choose wisely" (and even if we screw that up we have Call Forward available).

No, explorers shouldn't get build weps/ammo skill - it's an important class restriction/distinction. No, Terrans shouldn't be able to build reactors - it's an important racial restriction/distinction. When we start tossing away those distinctions we end up with chars that are all the same but merely look different - then what's the point?

[Terrell [BT]]

I don't really have a problem with the explorer chars being unable to build ammo. My TW makes all my Scout's ammo for her, in return she makes his devices.

[wootage]

Look at that - right off the top we see 5 choices. That's one of the aspects of the game that I think makes it so great - we DO have choices AND we have to "choose wisely" (and even if we screw that up we have Call Forward available).

No, explorers shouldn't get build weps/ammo skill - it's an important class restriction/distinction. No, Terrans shouldn't be able to build reactors - it's an important racial restriction/distinction. When we start tossing away those distinctions we end up with chars that are all the same but merely look different - then what's the point?

Point, what alts can do is not a part of the game's design. So alts shouldn't be on that list.

Point 2 - not all explorers are equal in this regard. JE's don't need to make ammo at all. So either they are out of balance or the other classes are.

Point 3 - if you gave all classes the build skill and enough extra points to build their own ammo, they'd still have the same point pool to use for their skills, the same ships, the same weapons and other gear. So all classes would stay just as varied, and builders would still be building all day long. Just not ammo.

I don't really see that as a massive game breaker.

[garblesoup]

P JE's don't need to make ammo at all. So either they are out of balance or the other classes are.

To quote Kyle's (from "South Park") Mom . . . what what what?

Clearly I've been missing some super secret ability my JE has - please share with the rest of us. Does his projectile ammo get laid under his pillow by the ammo fairy when I put him down to sleep? Does he poop it out and it magically shows up in his vault? Where, pray tell, does this ammo come from so wonderfully and magically that would relive him of any need to either make ammo or buy it or have someone build it for his PL's?

Seriously, do you have any notion of what each character's abilities are? Or are you just ignoring my actual point in the post you quote me where I indicate how each player has choices to make - including the choice a Jenq can make to use PL's (and thereby need ammo)?

And, for the record, my PW - which uses ammo at a prodigious rate - does not have the build weps skill developed. He, therefore, can not build his own ammo. It's a CHOICE I made to allow him to max out his other skills. It requires that I obtain ammo in the same manner as any PS or TS must - and I'm OK with that. Because - if we do as has been suggested and provide PS and TS (and JE, despite your claims to the contrary) with build ammo skill without build weps skill - then I would say why do PW's, PP's, TT's and TE's need build weps skill to build THEIR own ammo?

[tredway]

Point, what alts can do is not a part of the game's design. So alts shouldn't be on that list.

Why not I ran multiple accounts in Live just like I do here, cept difference here is I dont have to pay for them all

Point 2 - not all explorers are equal in this regard. JE's don't need to make ammo at all. So either they are out of balance or the other classes are.

The game has various classes and various skills for varying play types, never meant to have just 1 character type with all skills, varying choices you must make

Point 3 - if you gave all classes the build skill and enough extra points to build their own ammo, they'd still have the same point pool to use for their skills, the same ships, the same weapons and other gear. So all classes would stay just as varied, and builders would still be building all day long. Just not ammo.

Again, the intention of all MMOs is having varying classes with various abilities, none are created equal and not should be imo, you make a decision to play based on factors (like you wanna be a Warrior, a Healer, a Builder, etc) They should not be on equal grounds as to take away from what those chosen paths are.

I don't really see that as a massive game breaker.

Its called an MMO for a reason... Player interaction with other players. Now granted before you fire back with we don't have those large numbers anymore, we still do have players willing to make your ammo, you still have the choice to have 3 accounts, you also have another choice to become a beam only user and no need for ammo, etc... No offense but thats the way the game was designed and how most others are as well. Different classes/races whatever are meant to be different, not equal playing fields if that was the case, get rid of them all, make 1 character with all skills and set limited amount of points... Same concept I see being touted here and thats BORING drones lol, just my humble opinion. I prefer to play each race/class and utilize the skills they present me with at hand. Do I expect my JE to kill like my PW heck no, not suppose to... Do I expect the PW to go out mining? UM NO he should be laying waste with weapons... Ok Rant off

[Calatin]

Look at that - right off the top we see 5 choices.

You misunderstood the point. If I had said, "my family is starving. The only solutions I see are to search for road kill, dig through garbage cans, or beg in the street", you'd have said, "Look at that -- right off the top we see three choices." My point was that all of the "choices" I outlined were not very good ones.

Many of the posters are ignoring that the proponents have acknowledged and agree with the principle of inter-class independence; we just don't want it to be a factor in the game every single hour of play. It should come up -- as it does for other classes -- now and then as you advance and need a new reactor/shield/weapon-set, etc. No one is saying, "Make it so I don't have to depend on anyone else for builds." No one is saying, "make all the classes the same".

And I don't think, "you don't have to worry if you multi-box" is a good answer. I shouldn't have to drag around an auxiliary character to make my Main viable.

Summary: I think -- and perhaps the original poster -- that Westwood made a mistake in not letting PS & TS not make their own ammo (and JE if you want to be pedantic), since it's something you need to obtain on a very frequent basis. And it might be something that's correctable in EnB's "second life". There's no need to spin the debate into realms beyond that.

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

probably the reasons they didn't include a Build Ammo skill was because its ambiguous with Build Weapons and because it would require extra skill points - the same amount as the other builds, something that really no one is up for that, at the current price in skill points.

i see two ways out of this, besides alternatives as outline before.

So what are the alternatives?

1. Run an alt just to build your ammo
2. Seek out an ammo builder on a regular basis, sometimes multiple times per day
3. Throw all the ores and prototypes out of your vault so you have ammo space and don't need help as often
4. Convert to beams
5. Only use vendor-bought ammo and avoid weapons that use other types (e.g. proto weapons)
6. ?

they are:

1. add vendor(s) for explorers only, somewhere in the galaxy, or multiple places in the galaxy, preferably at sectors which have pirates, and these vendor(s) could be inside or outside stations, they only sell ammo, and only to Explorers, all kinds of ammo, including rare ammo, at special prices, since its the black market, and this ammo is non-manuf and non-trade, so no builder can take advantage of the system to analyze the ammo.
2. add Build Ammo skill, which works just like Build Weapons, except it only permits analyzing and building ammo, and is only available to Explorers, in place of Build Weapons, and preferably at the cost of less skill points.

How can it cost less skill points?

Build Weapons (7) (Traders and Warriors only - JS, JD, PP, PW, TT, TE)

• lvl1 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl1 ... (0 skill points)
• lvl2 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl2 ... (1 skill points)
• lvl3 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl3 ... (2 skill points) (Trade lvl5)
• lvl4 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl4 ... (3 skill points) (Trade lvl15)
• lvl5 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl5 ... (4 skill points) (Trade lvl25)
• lvl6 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl6-7 ... (5 skill points) (Trade lvl35)
• lvl7 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl8-9 ... (6 skill points) (Trade lvl45)
• total: 21 skill points

Build Ammo (5) (Explorers only - JE, PS, TS)

• lvl1 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl1-2 ... (0 skill points)
• lvl2 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl3-4 ... (1 skill points) (Trade lvl10) - middle ground
• lvl3 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl5 ... (2 skill points) (Trade lvl25) - same requirement to avoid competition
• lvl4 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl6-7 ... (3 skill points) (Trade lvl35) - same requirement to avoid competition
• lvl5 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl8-9 ... (4 skill points) (Trade lvl45) - same requirement to avoid competition
• total: 10 skill points

see the difference?

my logic is that although it builds the same lvl of stuff, it only builds ammo, so it's less complicated, hence requiring a lower skill level.

as for the Trade levels, i also devised a requirement table that is not too much different comparing to build weapons, so it does not harm the economy nor harms the explorers.

probably the ammo should always be built between 175% and 200%, not always 200% or 100%, because the explorers are not experts of weapons and ammo. this also avoids "competition" at building ammo.

btw, both methods could be implemented IMO (vendor and build ammo)

Edited February 24, 2011 by LPCA

[garblesoup]

You misunderstood the point. If I had said, "my family is starving. The only solutions I see are to search for road kill, dig through garbage cans, or beg in the street", you'd have said, "Look at that -- right off the top we see three choices." My point was that all of the "choices" I outlined were not very good ones.

Many of the posters are ignoring that the proponents have acknowledged and agree with the principle of inter-class independence; we just don't want it to be a factor in the game every single hour of play. It should come up -- as it does for other classes -- now and then as you advance and need a new reactor/shield/weapon-set, etc. No one is saying, "Make it so I don't have to depend on anyone else for builds." No one is saying, "make all the classes the same".

And I don't think, "you don't have to worry if you multi-box" is a good answer. I shouldn't have to drag around an auxiliary character to make my Main viable.

Summary: I think -- and perhaps the original poster -- that Westwood made a mistake in not letting PS & TS not make their own ammo (and JE if you want to be pedantic), since it's something you need to obtain on a very frequent basis. And it might be something that's correctable in EnB's "second life". There's no need to spin the debate into realms beyond that.

Look, once you compare choices made in a video game to your family starving then YOU are the one that has "spun the debate into realms beyond that".

As I said earlier, there are plenty of choices. You don't HAVE to build ammo - there's plenty of weapons (even higher level ones) that have vendor supplied ammo. For that high level PS he/she can run Archos and buy ammo, no problem; TS, Zet's, same thing.

Back in Live lots of players that I knew regularly used store-bought ammo for routine hunting and only opted for PM for special occasions - raids or solo-hunting more epic mobs.

This also speaks to (one of) the benefits of Guild membership - any Guild worth its salt will have members ready, willing, and able to help you out to get your ammo built if you just have to have PM.

As I've also said - my PW blows through an amazing amount of ammo without the build skill - and I've never heard him whine once about it. He knows he made a choice not to develop that skill and gain SP to invest into other things. It would stand to reason that people that chose to develop chartypes that don't have that build skill should understand and accept that they did the same.

[garblesoup]

probably the reasons they didn't include a Build Ammo skill was because its ambiguous with Build Weapons and because it would require extra skill points - the same amount as the other builds, something that really no one is up for that, at the current price in skill points.

i see two ways out of this, besides alternatives as outline before.

they are:

1. add vendor(s) for explorers only, somewhere in the galaxy, or multiple places in the galaxy, preferably at sectors which have pirates, and these vendor(s) could be inside or outside stations, they only sell ammo, and only to Explorers, all kinds of ammo, including rare ammo, at special prices, since its the black market, and this ammo is non-manuf and non-trade, so no builder can take advantage of the system to analyze the ammo.
2. add Build Ammo skill, which works just like Build Weapons, except it only permits analyzing and building ammo, and is only available to Explorers, in place of Build Weapons, and preferably at the cost of less skill points.

How can it cost less skill points?

Build Weapons (7) (Traders and Warriors only - JS, JD, PP, PW, TT, TE)

• lvl1 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl1 ... (0 skill points)
• lvl2 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl2 ... (1 skill points)
• lvl3 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl3 ... (2 skill points) (Trade lvl5)
• lvl4 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl4 ... (3 skill points) (Trade lvl15)
• lvl5 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl5 ... (4 skill points) (Trade lvl25)
• lvl6 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl6-7 ... (5 skill points) (Trade lvl35)
• lvl7 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl8-9 ... (6 skill points) (Trade lvl45)
• total: 21 skill points

Build Ammo (5) (Explorers only - JE, PS, TS)

• lvl1 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl1-2 ... (0 skill points)
• lvl2 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl3-4 ... (1 skill points) (Trade lvl10) - middle ground
• lvl3 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl5 ... (2 skill points) (Trade lvl25) - same requirement to avoid competition
• lvl4 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl6-7 ... (3 skill points) (Trade lvl35) - same requirement to avoid competition
• lvl5 - allow analyze and manuf of lvl8-9 ... (4 skill points) (Trade lvl45) - same requirement to avoid competition
• total: 10 skill points

see the difference?

my logic is that although it builds the same lvl of stuff, it only builds ammo, so it's less complicated, hence requiring a lower skill level.

as for the Trade levels, i also devised a requirement table that is not too much different comparing to build weapons, so it does not harm the economy nor harms the explorers.

probably the ammo should always be built between 175% and 200%, not always 200% or 100%, because the explorers are not experts of weapons and ammo. this also avoids "competition" at building ammo.

btw, both methods could be implemented IMO (vendor and build ammo)

Wait - so my PW needs to invest 21 SP to be able to build lvl 9 ammo but a PS will only need to invest 10? Riiiggghht. And I don't care that it comes with the ability to build weapons, too - my PW is a killer, not a builder. I have a TT, who is a builder and not a killer, to sate my appetite for crafting. Talk about unbalanced.

[wootage]

To quote Kyle's (from "South Park") Mom . . . what what what?

Clearly I've been missing some super secret ability my JE has - please share with the rest of us. Does his projectile ammo get laid under his pillow by the ammo fairy when I put him down to sleep? Does he poop it out and it magically shows up in his vault? Where, pray tell, does this ammo come from so wonderfully and magically that would relive him of any need to either make ammo or buy it or have someone build it for his PL's?

Seriously, do you have any notion of what each character's abilities are? Or are you just ignoring my actual point in the post you quote me where I indicate how each player has choices to make - including the choice a Jenq can make to use PL's (and thereby need ammo)?

And, for the record, my PW - which uses ammo at a prodigious rate - does not have the build weps skill developed. He, therefore, can not build his own ammo. It's a CHOICE I made to allow him to max out his other skills. It requires that I obtain ammo in the same manner as any PS or TS must - and I'm OK with that. Because - if we do as has been suggested and provide PS and TS (and JE, despite your claims to the contrary) with build ammo skill without build weps skill - then I would say why do PW's, PP's, TT's and TE's need build weps skill to build THEIR own ammo?

Your snideness aside - you really should take a break and walk away from the Internet for awhile, it's not like it's real - thank you for repeating my point 3 for me. Let me repeat it in whole.

Yes, let's allow every character the skills and points to build their own ammo. If you're worried about breaking the whole game n'stuff, then limit it to their own RACIAL ammo, so that alternate gameplay styles still require other builders.

[wootage]

Its called an MMO for a reason... Player interaction with other players. Now granted before you fire back with we don't have those large numbers anymore, we still do have players willing to make your ammo, you still have the choice to have 3 accounts, you also have another choice to become a beam only user and no need for ammo, etc... No offense but thats the way the game was designed and how most others are as well. Different classes/races whatever are meant to be different, not equal playing fields if that was the case, get rid of them all, make 1 character with all skills and set limited amount of points... Same concept I see being touted here and thats BORING drones lol, just my humble opinion. I prefer to play each race/class and utilize the skills they present me with at hand. Do I expect my JE to kill like my PW heck no, not suppose to... Do I expect the PW to go out mining? UM NO he should be laying waste with weapons... Ok Rant off

It's called an MMO because you play with other PLAYERs. Not your ALTS.

And don't put words in my mouth about what I would or would not say. I don't care if it's the size of Second Life or a single player game, if it's not fun for the player, you're breaking the only rule that matters. If players that can't make their own ammo are experiencing gameplay problems that are interfering with their having fun, it's irrelevant what the design says "should happen". The design is wrong because it breaks the only rule that matters.

Re all the rest of it, I think I covered that completely in point 3. Being self-sufficient for ammo isn't going to change jack squat for gameplay or character variations. The only people who can possibly be impacted negatively are the builders, and I don't see a single one of them chiming in here with any negatives.

[rhobix]

I just thought about another feature that might help with this issue. It might be difficult to code, but you could make it possible to stack stacks of ammo in vault. It could basically convert for instance 100 "Ogun Plasma Missile" to 1 "Stack of Ogun Plasma Missiles" when transfered to vault, and you could stack say 100 "Stack of Ogun Plasma Missiles" in one slot in the vault. When you transfer back from the vault to inventory you would get 100 "Ogun Plasma Missile" in a free slot in your inventory, and the number of "Stack of Ogun Plasma Missiles" in the vault is decreased by one.

[Tyran]

What surprises me most is that the people play the PS and TS and that their cries for build ammo are because they don't feel like they are being taken serious. Wake UP, playing as PS or TS, what are you thinking???

Putting it simply, the PS is a failed warrior because everything else with crit targeting outdamages it by parsecs. As a miner it is no less retarded, lacking the wormhole and navigation of the real miner...

The TS is like a mutated child of the JE and PS, having both damage and mining efficiency between the two. Nothing optimal, just average.

Reason PS and TS are retarded picks is the devs are allowing 3 accounts per IP. That is plenty of slots to go all-out, no need to go sub-par.

Want a PS? Get a PW and JE instead...

Want a TS? Get a TW and JE instead...

Unless ofcourse you are a casual player without enough time to invest in all-out classes in which case your cries shouldn't be taken serious anyway

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

it's true they aren't the best explorers.

the JE is the best Explorer, followed by TS and PS

the TT is the best Trader, followed by JS and PP

the PW is the best Warrior, followed by TE and JD

its the way the game was designed. no race can be best in all things.

no matter how flawed they are, they are cool characters that are fun to play with, with special abilities (that aren't enabled yet), and they deserve just as much attention as any other character. perhaps even more because their skills and their sectors aren't finished and fully playable, while the others are mostly finished.

so i don't agree with your opinion Tyran.

bashing over minorities or ignoring them or discriminating them, isn't the way to build a better game or society.

you can compare that ideology to discriminating towards minority groups in RL, be it by sex, religion, sexual orientation, race, color, country, way of dressing, or what ever.

i'm not saying you do that, but your post isn't too far from that.

about the stacks, Knix, i don't agree either. that's circumventing the limits on inventory and vault. does not makes sense from a point of logic (can't store more than you can physically) and from a point of gameplay (whats the point of a limited vault then? might as well make it unlimited space).

Edited February 25, 2011 by LPCA

[fuulishone]

Rather than changing the classes at large, why not advocate something that's fairly easy to implement? Allow PS/TS to find good/decent racial level 8 beams? Beam mode is probably very compatible with mining mode as you save on cargo space. Since you're not opposed to spending skill points on a build ammo skill, you're probably not opposed to spending points on beam skill.

The only alternative is to stop thinking you need to use the absolute best ammo/best guns as an explorer. Realistically, having raid quality weapons doesn't really make all that much difference when mining/protecting yourself from field guardians. You could always equip vendor ammo. IIRC, there's vendor Archos and Zet ammo.

If you feel the need to use the very best ammo @ 200%, then feel free to find a friendly builder and load up your cargo/vault with pre-made ammo. That's what I did. It's really not as big a deal as you make it out to be. Unless you're toting top level turbo and all you do is combat, you're not going to burn through all that much ammo.

I'm not dissing the suggestion, just playing Devil's Advocate on the subject.

[cosmo33]

Rather than changing the classes at large, why not advocate something that's fairly easy to implement? Allow PS/TS to find good/decent racial level 8 beams? Beam mode is probably very compatible with mining mode as you save on cargo space. Since you're not opposed to spending skill points on a build ammo skill, you're probably not opposed to spending points on beam skill.

The only alternative is to stop thinking you need to use the absolute best ammo/best guns as an explorer. Realistically, having raid quality weapons doesn't really make all that much difference when mining/protecting yourself from field guardians. You could always equip vendor ammo. IIRC, there's vendor Archos and Zet ammo.

If you feel the need to use the very best ammo @ 200%, then feel free to find a friendly builder and load up your cargo/vault with pre-made ammo. That's what I did. It's really not as big a deal as you make it out to be. Unless you're toting top level turbo and all you do is combat, you're not going to burn through all that much ammo.

I'm not dissing the suggestion, just playing Devil's Advocate on the subject.

Again, I try to bring everyone back to the original post. No skill points to build ammo, every time you upgrade weapon skill you get that ammo build Lv by default. That way you don't have to rework the skills and the points.

As to vendor ammo, many weapons you cant buy vendor ammo for. And a part of the game is making your ship better, from Lv1 on up every time you change a shield, reactor, engine, ect you are improving your ship. it would be unreasonable to ask someone to not want to get the best equipment his ship can use.

Again, by ONLY reason for the build ammo skill for these 2 ships are to make the play experience more enjoyable for each. I honestly think this one simple change would see more of each of these classes.

I don't propose building anything more than ammo period as a change. Again the only reason for the change would be a more enjoyable gaming experience while playing these two classes, which is why we all play, to have fun.

Now, you did make one point, make all Explorers Lv9 Beam users, which makes way less sense than giving them the simple ability to make ammo that it uses.