PS and TS build ammo

[cosmo33]

I would love to see the PS and TS get the ability to build its own ammo. Im sure anyone that has played these two classes would tell you this one change would make these two classes much more enjoyable to play.

Tie the build ammo skill to combat level and as you reach a certain combat level you can build the appropriate ammo level, CL 12 = Build Ammo Lv3, CL 18 = Build Ammo Lv4 ect., you get the idea. By doing this you would not have to rework the skill trees.

IMO this change would not hurt for all classes, the PW is a real bear to lv trade fast enough to keep up with its ammo used. With no Negotiate and a small cargo the PW is really tough for trade. To keep people from using the ammo build as an exploit to Lv trade, do away with the Trade XP that building ammo gives, that way people couldn't sit at a Build Terminal for hours making ammo to up their trade skill.

To me this one change would not hurt the original intent of the game. All classes can already build something, it only makes sense it can make its own ammo.

[Jamosite]

It was never intended for the explorer classes to build there own ammo, back in the day when most people had only one account you would have to carry

compos for that time of need or build from your main and trade it over, now its easier because you can run multi accounts.

[Tyran]

Only people without multiple accounts will have issues with this. Which is a minority that deserves to be oppressed

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

Whats the point?

May as well give everyone every skill [#2] in the game and say "go and be one clone [#1] of everyone else"

[#1] no insult intended to Vinda's fine methods of creating superior beings called Progen [#4]

[#2] not [#3] going to happen

[#3] never ever

[#4] see dictionary: defined to be genetically superior to Jenquai [#5] and Terrans [#5]

[#5] scum [#6]

[#6] Common knowledge amongst all Progen [#4]

[Ranko[IS]]

Actually in live, the PS could build its own Archos' ammo.

It was a device that allowed you to make ammo. the ammo was non-tradable, and used ALOT of comps to build, AND could only be built outside the station, as it was a device.

It only permitted archo ammo....

Hence I think this is there that funky non-tradable archos ammo comes in to play that we sometimes see, looted from mobs.

[Tyran]

Whats the point?

May as well give everyone every skill [#2] in the game and say "go and be one clone [#1] of everyone else"

[#1] no insult intended to Vinda's fine methods of creating superior beings called Progen [#4]

[#2] not [#3] going to happen

[#3] never ever

[#4] see dictionary: defined to be genetically superior to Jenquai [#5] and Terrans [#5]

[#5] scum [#6]

[#6] Common knowledge amongst all Progen [#4]

If you call not having a functional man-sausage superior to Jenquai and Terran, then please keep going

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

Yep that device does exist, but figuring how to implement it will be the issue...

[Ranko[IS]]

it could never do 200% ammo either byakhee I think 150 or 175% was max.

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

i think its more lame that the Terran Scout can't build reactors.

InfinitiCorp and GETCo do build reactors. its stupid that no single terran character can build them.

[wootage]

Whats the point?

May as well give everyone every skill [#2] in the game and say "go and be one clone [#1] of everyone else"

[#1] no insult intended to Vinda's fine methods of creating superior beings called Progen [#4]

[#2] not [#3] going to happen

[#3] never ever

[#4] see dictionary: defined to be genetically superior to Jenquai [#5] and Terrans [#5]

[#5] scum [#6]

[#6] Common knowledge amongst all Progen [#4]

Check me on this, but if you gave everyone the ability to do anything in the game- wouldn't the available points still rule their choices?

So nobody could really ever be a clone as you say. Everyone would still be forced into making choices that defined their characters.

[karu [WDL]]

it could never do 200% ammo either byakhee I think 150 or 175% was max.

I dont remember people whining about % in live so it probably was 200% as any ammo. it was just too damn expensive do to.

[kemperor1]

Check me on this, but if you gave everyone the ability to do anything in the game- wouldn't the available points still rule their choices?

So nobody could really ever be a clone as you say. Everyone would still be forced into making choices that defined their characters.

Sounds like this other game I used to play

[Lobevaser]

With Due Respect To All ..." THIS IS NOT LIVE .... and if you don't have screen shot's from live it never happened." (what a dev will say to ya)

TBH there is a lot from live we cant add due to the agreement that was made with a few copyright owner's .

((please double check on that .... ))

I have been here since before ST1 when we could only undock from earth station then redock .....

There is a lot i would like to see back BUT ..... yes BUT the Dev team is working on bugs and error's on what we have online now .

Just be happy to even have what we Have now .

Again this post is made with due respect to all involved .

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

im thinking probably there should exist a TODO list (near future and postponed tasks) to help devs out.

checking back and forward on the forums will just make them forget about suggestions/issues which at some point cant be resolved, but could be later on...

[C Del[IS]]

lols

So I gather from this thread that the TS should be able to build ammo and reactors...

Let me think about that for a hot second - no. No single class can be self-sufficient like that. You need interdependencies between classes in order to make cooperation useful and to make the game fun.

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

aye, but the build reactors, unlike the ammo, would not do that xD

[cosmo33]

lols

So I gather from this thread that the TS should be able to build ammo and reactors...

Let me think about that for a hot second - no. No single class can be self-sufficient like that. You need interdependencies between classes in order to make cooperation useful and to make the game fun.

So I take it your either taking Reactor build or Ammo build from the PP then. Hmm, someone didn't think before posting.(g) The original post was to address ammo only. Not a whole redesign of the the classes.

[C Del[IS]]

So I take it your either taking Reactor build or Ammo build from the PP then. Hmm, someone didn't think before posting.(g) The original post was to address ammo only. Not a whole redesign of the the classes.

I don't mean that build reactors and build ammo is itself a game-breaking combination, but that we can't just add these skills to the scout. The scout's skillset is not trade-oriented, but designed for exploration. (The TS has class-specific skills which aren't in yet, it's important to note) Building devices and engines fits with the exploration game mechanic combined with the Terran race advantage of speed.

Ammo building just couldn't be given to any exploration class because it's simply not their specialty, and doing so would devalue the skills of the trade and warrior classes.

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

that is true. i had forgotten about this because its been like 3 years since studied the skills in depth... but here is the research i just finished.

nice conclusions. seems all classes and races and generaly ballance - a nice work of westwood - my remarks:

1. the JE is the strongest explorer, in terms of builds, by being able to build devices (scan boost for example) and reactors (need energy for free warp and buffs)
2. the TT is the strongest trader, in terms of builds, by having the most popular builds and having negotiate
3. the PW is the strongest warrior, in terms of combat, by having many combat skills, but is the weakest builder (1 build), as he sacrificed that for combat skills
4. the PROGEN are hampered in builds (add shields and/or weapons for all 3 progen?); they also could have one more character building devices
5. too few reactor builders (TT could have reactors), making him more noticeably the strongest trader (isnt that supposed to be)
6. too few shield builders (PW could have shields)

full research bellow.

By Class/Race:

• JE: devices, reactors (2)
• JS: components, devices, engines, reactors, weapons (5)
• JD: devices, weapons (2)
• PS: devices, shields (2)
• PP: components, reactors, shields, weapons (4)
• PW: weapons (1)
• TS: devices, engines (2)
• TT: components, devices, engines, shields, weapons (5)
• TE: engines, weapons (2)

By Race:

• Jenquai: devices (JE, JS, JD), reactors (JE, JS), weapons (JS, JD) --- all builds but SHIELDS, total 9 builds
• Progen: shields (PS, PP), weapons (PP, PW) --- all builds but ENGINES, total 7 builds
• Terran: engines (TS, TT, TE), devices (TS, TT), weapons (TT, TE) --- all builds but REACTORS, total 9 builds

note1: weak point of Jenquai is SHIELDS, of Progen is ENGINES, of Terran is REACTORS (no builders, max equip level 8, weaker vendor items)

note2: second weak point of Jenquai is ENGINES, of Progen is REACTORS+DEVICES, of Terran is SHEILDS (1 builder only)

note3: Progen has less builds, and not a single build shared by all 3 classes (weapons anyone? PS?).

By Class:

• Explorers: devices (JE, PS, TS), an extra build (different by race) - reactors (JE), shields (PS), engines (TS)
• Traders: components (JS, PP, TT), weapons (JS, PP, TT), devices (TS, TT), reactors (JS, PP), shields (PP, TT), engines (JS, TT)
• Warriors: weapons (JD, PW, TE), an extra build (different by race) - devices (JD), engines (TE)

note1: no explorers can build weapons, no warriors can build shields or reactors, only traders can build components
note2: no extra build for PW as he gets combat skills
note3: the TT is the strongest builder, with most shared builds

By Build:

• components: JS, PP, TT (Traders) (3)
• weapons: JS, JD, PP, PW, TT, TE (Traders and Warriors) (6)
• devices: JE, JS, JD, PS, TS, TT (Jenquai, Explorers, mixed characters) (6)
• shields: PS, PP, TT (mixed characters) (3)
• reactors: JE, JS, PP (mixed characters) (3)
• engines: JS, TS, TT, TE (Terran, mixed characters) (4)

note1: again, Progen have less builds; Terran and Jenquai each get a build in common

note2: Traders, Warriors and Explores all get a build in common, with Traders getting two

note3: weakest builds are SHIELDS and REACTORS, as no entire class or race can build them

[Calatin]

Well, there's a big difference between hunting out a builder every 10-20 levels to get a new shield/reactor/engine/gun... and having to hunt out a builder every single day to build ammunition. It's like the difference between buying a new car and buying groceries. I don't mind driving 100 miles for that new car, but I wouldn't do it every time I need a loaf of bread.

So what are the alternatives?

1. Run an alt just to build your ammo
   
2. Seek out an ammo builder on a regular basis, sometimes multiple times per day
   
3. Throw all the ores and prototypes out of your vault so you have ammo space and don't need help as often
   
4. Convert to beams
   
5. Only use vendor-bought ammo and avoid weapons that use other types (e.g. proto weapons)
   
6. ?
   

[rhobix]

I think ammo build should be connected to weapon skill instead. If you can use a weapon, you should be able to analyze and build the ammo for it.

Not that it has much of an impact for me since my PS and TS are pretty far down my alts list, so I will always have an alt capable of building ammo for them.

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

In reply to Mash:

The PP is a trader class, like the JS is. This is why the PP can build:

- Weapons

- Shields ( Progen Strength )

- Reactors ( Because Progen can equip on some classes level 9 reactors )

- Components ( Trader )

The PP cannot build the race weakness build which is Engines as no progen can have level 9 engines.

This model can be applied to the other races. The equipment that you cannot equip at level 9 for your race, you cannot build in your race.

It is my understanding this is:

= Shields for Jenquai

= Reactors for Terrans

The TS is the Explorer class. This is compared to PS and JE.

PS can build devices and shields. It did get an ammunition compression device in live but this was to the end of the game, and created it from ores. I do believe from memory it was not good as propperly created ammunition. It was also limited to (archos only?).

The PS has 2 builds.

So the TS has 2 builds - Racial Build (Engines) + 1 other ( Devices?)

The warriors of each race should be able to build the weapons.

Part of my implementation of Agrippa Technology was to design a means to still make it worthwhile for PS still to build devices and shields, and PW still to build weapons and for the PP to build what it can! Agrippa Technology is primarily based on sharing items; and now Stage II and III are being worked on, higher items right upto level 9.

Oh, and primarily it is designed around Progen; do not expect jenquai or terran racial skills to be in it. More exactly it is designed around centuriata.

Knix:

Makes no sense to tie it to being able to use the item for the ammunition. In any weapon often the ammunition is purposely designed for the weapon - updates to the weapon can use older ammunition as the specification is known.

It be like saying that every person in the world that uses a computer will be able to build a computer and program their own operating system!

No.

If you build weapons you can build ammunition too.

[rhobix]

It be like saying that every person in the world that uses a computer will be able to build a computer and program their own operating system!

No.

If you build weapons you can build ammunition too.

I think it's more like saying a hunter can assemble his own ammunition. I know many hunters do, but I don't think many would be able to build their own rifle.

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

I think ammo build should be connected to weapon skill instead. If you can use a weapon, you should be able to analyze and build the ammo for it.

Not that it has much of an impact for me since my PS and TS are pretty far down my alts list, so I will always have an alt capable of building ammo for them.

i dont agree.

if that was the case, you could use and analyse and build also reactors, shields, engines, devices.

being able to USE something, does not means you can UNDERSTAND how it works and how to MAKE one.

additionally, i found a flaw in my thoughts.

you shouldn't be able to BUILD something bigger than you can USE.

ie, as a Terran, who CAN'T USE REACTORS lvl9 (only up to lvl8), you should not be able to BUILD REACTORS lvl9, if it ever was added to the TS or TT.if you can build, you can use, dah!

Edited February 23, 2011 by LPCA

[Terrell [BT]]

i dont agree.

if that was the case, you could use and analyse and build also reactors, shields, engines, devices.

being able to USE something, does not means you can UNDERSTAND how it works and how to MAKE one.

additionally, i found a flaw in my thoughts.

you shouldn't be able to BUILD something bigger than you can USE.

ie, as a Terran, who CAN'T USE REACTORS lvl9 (only up to lvl8), you should not be able to BUILD REACTORS lvl9, if it ever was added to the TS or TT.if you can build, you can use, dah!

This only applies to racial weakness, there are other cases where a person can build a L9 something that they cannot use.

JT can build L9 devices, but she cannot use them. If she were switched from Engine 9, Device 8 to Engines 8, Device 9, she would then be able to build L9 engines, without being able to use them. She has all builds except shields. (racial weakness)

TT can build L9 Devices but he cannot use them.