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Large guilds are like the Borg...


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I'm curious what the devs are thinking of doing to avoid an age old problem with ENB:

The NEED to be a member of a huge guild so that you can do raids. To not do so you are denying yourself epic raid loot.

I'm sure I wasnt the only one that noticed that some servers had maybe 90% of players belonging to one of 2 or 3 guilds. I was in such a guild for a very short while and found it sucked ass. You don't care to know anyone else well and basically all the guild revolves around is whose turn it is to loot at the next raid.

BOOOOOOOOORING...

Other downsides of these huge guilds are things like this thread where a person feels obliged to apologize in public otherwise he will have issues with a significant part of the server. While the guild in question doesnt sound too peeved about it (maybe becuz its a stress test?), in live there were many examples of an attack on one is an attack on all.

These large guilds tend to be more like gangs, or cartels because they run/ran the raids.

Do the devs want ENB to force ppl to guild together in overwhelming numbers?

Can something be done against this?

Does anyone else share my feelings on large guilds or are you all a bunch of pack animals?

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Well, I belong to a large guild that raids daily.

I joined that guild because a buddy of mine was in it. The guild had some "guild raids" and I was hooked even though I was too little to be of much use. I enjoyed the folks in the guild, mostly because they are nice folks, and we are fairly laid back. There's no mandatory attendance to raids, etc. If you want to do your own thing you can, and many do. One of the nice things about being part of a large guild is always having somebody to chat with, raid with, group with, or whatever. Heck we even have some folks that are complete loners, and thats fine.

In "live" I was a member of a smaller guild, we made an effort to be friends with the larger guilds, and soon were invited to raids with them.

In the game as in life, it's what you make of it.

;)

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I'll give you a tip: If you want to have a discussion with people don't make snide commonats at them in your posts. Not all big guilds are horrible, but yes some are. I know in STATIC we have a blast laughing and joking, poking fun at each other over meaningless stuff.

As for the guild issue, its just personal preferance. What I have noticed lately in MMOs is this: People in large guilds are easy targets, you see the name more and you notice the bad stuff they do more. People in smaller guilds tend to bitch that they can't do anything cause they lack the numbers. Another problem is too many people want that precious little guild leader tag, when they have no business running a guild. In the EMU and some other games, it doesn't take much to run a guild. But to be competitive its another story.

If you are in a small guild and lack the numbers, try to find another guild in the same issue and strike up a co-op for raiding, right now no content requires more than a 6man group and most of it doesn't even take that after you learn it. If you refuse to do that, well then its just your loss. Just kick back, have fun and laugh while playing.

As for the part about pissing off the big bad guilds with 5,000 members, I think its funny as hell when someone tells me "My guild will get you/destroy you!".

**EDIT** I suck at spelling simple words today :/

Edited by Whitelighter
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as long as we don't get another guild like A99 was then we're fine. ;)

most pegasus people can tell you that A99 (anarchy 99) guild was the worst guild.... they would raid steal and everything.

I remember once when the whole server was pissed off at them and I was playing as a JE, i was sitting at the VT weft and giving people rides since I was bored. Now on the pegasus server usually used to tip 5-10k credits for a WH.

This one time.. (at band camp... j/k)... this A99 member came and demanded a free wormhole to paren from VT.

so i waited a minute for him to change his mind and pay for it. (any other guild i would give free wormholes, but not to any A99 members...) so i asked him to pay. he refused and demanded me to WH him to Kaillasa from VT... so i decided i should WH him to endriago instead.... So I did... boy was he mad afterwards. however the whole server started laughing at him when he started ranting on market and general channels about me sending him to endriago instead of paren...

This was regardless of the topic but just wanted to share the story with you guys :)

fly safe.

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Well, I belong to a large guild that raids daily.

I joined that guild because a buddy of mine was in it. The guild had some "guild raids" and I was hooked even though I was too little to be of much use. I enjoyed the folks in the guild, mostly because they are nice folks, and we are fairly laid back. There's no mandatory attendance to raids, etc. If you want to do your own thing you can, and many do. One of the nice things about being part of a large guild is always having somebody to chat with, raid with, group with, or whatever. Heck we even have some folks that are complete loners, and thats fine.

In "live" I was a member of a smaller guild, we made an effort to be friends with the larger guilds, and soon were invited to raids with them.

In the game as in life, it's what you make of it.

;)

Actually, that's not true. I was part of vge and TS was required to do raiding and raids were something you were required to do or you could go take a flying leap. Those that did grunt work were stepped all over and although it might have changed, a person who left after me told me he left after one member came into guild chat and said that lowerlevel players would no longer receive any leveling help.

I run my own small guild now and I think they are good folks. But don't try to tell me large guilds do not try to run your enjoyment.

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Do the devs want ENB to force ppl to guild together in overwhelming numbers?

Can something be done against this?

Does anyone else share my feelings on large guilds or are you all a bunch of pack animals?

Why would we want this? There's no logical reason for us to want or not to want guilds to grow as they see fit. This is up to players. We cannot create rules for everything, only design systems to try to entice you not to do it. We're not going to make restrictions, but given some good ideas we might implement something to make a smaller guild more beneficial somehow.

In regards to the pack animals thing, perhaps you should consider removing rhetoric/vitriol/junk from your post if you want an honest answer from your peers. ;)

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Back in live, I shared your sentiment. I thoughts big guilds were big kill stealing, raid camping Mafia families. Static was one of the strongest and biggest guilds on Andromeda and had a rep for these things. I disliked them like so many on the sever. However, after grouping with a few members and doing some raids with them I honestly never met anyone I didn't like.

Here in st4 I wouldn't switch guilds with anyone. I see only upside to being in a large guild. There are always people to talk to, ask for help, group with, build for you, etc. I understand the monopoly concept many associate with large guilds but I've learned this is.all about the nature of the people running / joining them. A douchebag in a large guild is still a douchebag, only with more power. Talk to people before throwing them into a category, you'll be surprised how many are willing to step aside and let someone else try that boss or give up the loot when someone else should have gotten the kill. And I'm not tooting my own horn, members of static and vge have done these things for myself and my friends.

Well forgive me if I'm ranting but all I'm saying is

A) I used to agree, I changed my mind

B) if you've had a problem with a certain type of guild or even a specific guild, there's a good chance it's the individual(s) you're dealing with, not the size of the guild or the guild as a whole.

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For the most part, now the larger guilds are more like public celebreties being watched. Most of those are pretty decent folk out there.... But there are those who simply don't like big guilds due to their size. Yet, I recieved a lesson in big guilds arent always bad on Lineage 2.

While Lineage2 is a different game with a completely different guild/clan system. I've learned its largely the people in the clan/guild who can make or break a fellow member's experience. I was with a small clan/alliance in which the leader suddenly expressed a desire to get a better clan allied, and at the time, I was for it. Yet, in bringing that clan into the fold, certain additional layers unknown to me were also brought in. No one at the time explained anything to me because then I could not see my own lack of understanding. It boils down to politics really. And this was a smaller clan/alliance.. Now, I'm in a large clan/alliance which people hardly ever comment on clan or ally issues. Granted, I'm not on as much as I used to be, but still, for a game that supposedly has a restriction on politics. The way its setup is completely hypocritical to its own restrictions. Just as the one clan leader /council absolutely failed to do anything to truly assist in broadening my understanding of the situation with the correct wording. Now, the clan I joined that was far larger in size than the clan that basically played politics around me, this clan answered my questions. They seem to be primarily focused on playing the game, which means a great deal to me.

IMO, the good clan or guild is one that doesnt hide info from its members and answers what is asked to their knowledge. Every clan wants to look the best in its members eyes, but honesty shouldnt be thrown to the wayside in pursuit of image. In the clan I was part of for most of my time in Lineage 2, we members were not told much of what any leaders discussed. Believe it or not, that clan also had , in keeping with the game chat restrictions, a no politics rule. Yet so much of what went on in that small clan's forum seemed to be politics.

What it really comes down to with guilds in EnB or anywhere else is the people who make up the guild structure. Big guilds can be really nice or like the Borg, but it still comes down to the type of people. You get the Borg feeling from those who seem to be bully types or those who abuse the size of their guild. Its also personal preference, and one that doesnt require a thread like this to sort out.

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Guilds large or small don’t affect my play style or interfere with my enjoyment of the game. Currently there is nothing in game that I am precluded from doing solo, so there has been no pressing need for me to join a guild (other than the missing companionship). Playing guild less for me has many advantages due to my haphazard play style. If I am on and have to log to do some errand or whatever I know I won’t be letting anyone down.

When the changes to the progen missions go into full swing I may have to change my opinion and play style… as I have stated before join a guild if one will have me. What I can’t fully understand is what point you are trying to make?

Are you saying that you don’t like large guilds so the devs should limit them in size? Or they should get rid of them altogether? This is a confusing thread.

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I am in a big guild now and I love it, great bunch to hang around with. I have also been in small guilds and they were great people. The big thing in this game is overall, it had and still has the best community in any MMO I have played (and I have played alot of them). You can stay solo and still get in on raids, just make friends, you don't have to be in a guild to do that. I have taken people out on raids that were not guildies and have raided with other guilds it's commonplace here. But to think the DEVS are going to stop big guilds from forming is just ludicris.Also I can say with an attitude like you have in this post, if you act like this in game you won't make very many friends, and the basis of this game is to work together. The thing is just have fun, if it's not fun to you then what's the point in playing.

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Actually, that's not true. I was part of vge and TS was required to do raiding and raids were something you were required to do or you could go take a flying leap. Those that did grunt work were stepped all over and although it might have changed, a person who left after me told me he left after one member came into guild chat and said that lowerlevel players would no longer receive any leveling help.

I run my own small guild now and I think they are good folks. But don't try to tell me large guilds do not try to run your enjoyment.

Sorry to hear your experience with VGE was a bad one!

I've been with them for quite a while and Never Ever did I see or hear anyone being treated that way. Sure, there are things that happen in a guild regardless of size. Can't please everyone type thing.

As to TS being a requirement for raids, we haven't used TS for a long time, but it's always better to be in voice comms just so all group members know whats going on in the raid. Things get way to busy to type in group chat when raiding.

Not sure who made the comment of leveling help, most of us drop what we are doing to help guildies when needed.

I honestly can't think of a single time everyone was Required to join a raid, and not real sure the server could stand that many jumping into the FB at the same time anyway.

I also stand by my original statement on making folks do things they don't want to, we have plenty of folks that do their own thing all the time.

Sorry to derail, just had to respond. B)

Edit: sorry was logged on with alt acct. I'm Klyde.

Edited by Klyde 2
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I'll give you a tip: If you want to have a discussion with people don't make snide commonats at them in your posts. Not all big guilds are horrible, but yes some are. I know in STATIC we have a blast laughing and joking, poking fun at each other over meaningless stuff.

Ironic, because static was the place where scrubs assembled. One of its leaders in live got his minions to help him get fully equipped with epic raid loot. Then he eBayed his account. Good that things change.
As for the guild issue, its just personal preferance. What I have noticed lately in MMOs is this: People in large guilds are easy targets, you see the name more and you notice the bad stuff they do more.
Kinda my point. If you are forced into a large guild you will also be represented by scrubs because they are always there.
As for the part about pissing off the big bad guilds with 5,000 members, I think its funny as hell when someone tells me "My guild will get you/destroy you!".
It can be funny indeed that people show such ape behaviour. But at some point it will not be 1v1 anymore. Within 15 minutes its 6v1...
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This one time.. (at band camp... j/k)... this A99 member came and demanded a free wormhole to paren from VT.

so i waited a minute for him to change his mind and pay for it. (any other guild i would give free wormholes, but not to any A99 members...) so i asked him to pay. he refused and demanded me to WH him to Kaillasa from VT... so i decided i should WH him to endriago instead.... So I did... boy was he mad afterwards. however the whole server started laughing at him when he started ranting on market and general channels about me sending him to endriago instead of paren...

This was regardless of the topic but just wanted to share the story with you guys B)

Good job :) Nice story to read.
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Actually, that's not true. I was part of vge and TS was required to do raiding and raids were something you were required to do or you could go take a flying leap. Those that did grunt work were stepped all over and although it might have changed, a person who left after me told me he left after one member came into guild chat and said that lowerlevel players would no longer receive any leveling help.

I run my own small guild now and I think they are good folks. But don't try to tell me large guilds do not try to run your enjoyment.

Yah u remind me to mention large guilds having a hierarchy that is not particularly nice.

Basically the leader and his close circle of friends are the core and will get priority with looting. The grunts as you so well put it, are the worthless pieces of trash that need to serve to get the leaders their loot.

PS: before ppl start referring to the stress test where everyone is nice to each other...forget about it because when the real deal (live) is launched, things like loot and hierarchy start to matter.

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Why would we want this? There's no logical reason for us to want or not to want guilds to grow as they see fit.

You see no reason for my suggestion.
This is up to players. We cannot create rules for everything, only design systems to try to entice you not to do it. We're not going to make restrictions, but given some good ideas we might implement something to make a smaller guild more beneficial somehow.
But you do seem open to suggestions to change this somehow...

One thing for sure is large guilds should not be penalized for being full of people with no individual identity.

But small guilds need something to counter this. Perhaps the ability to form an 'alliance', a group of guilds, could be implemented. This way the smaller sized guilds do not neccesarily need to lose out when it comes to raids.

Question is how different is an alliance to a large guild? I know from another mmorpg (GW) that there is definitely a difference between guilds (ppl a lot closer to you) and an alliance (people not too close but do have a common goal).

An alliance would be like a dialogue window where you can see the guilds that form the alliance, their stats maybe etc. But also an alliance chat option would be useful.

In regards to the pack animals thing, perhaps you should consider removing rhetoric/vitriol/junk from your post if you want an honest answer from your peers. B)
You mad?
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Why is everyone thinking that you need a large/huge guild to do raids and to even control those given raids if you would want to?

I have no idea on what server you guys were playing, but when i formed RIP on Pegasus, we only had about 25-30 dedicated members. We controlled all raids and raided daily, there were no other guilds who could stand a chance against us, not even those with 150 - 300 members.

But when A99 was created, i was actually glad to see that someone else was also smart enough to think like "quality over quantity". A99 was the only guild that was atleast smart enough for some competition without quantity (quantity, you know those huge guilds with 200+ members in guild). A99 was small but dedicated as well.

Someday we RIP and A99 decided to share raid spawns to make both lives eaasier. Everything was cool there, but i have no idea what happened to RIP & A99 after i left the game, but so far i heard only bad things :/

Whatever, you do NOT! and i can guaranteene you that, you do NOT need an huge guild for daily raiding! Get a smart hardcore guild up and you will own those huge guilds by far!

Edited by Himmelweiss
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PS: before ppl start referring to the stress test where everyone is nice to each other...forget about it because when the real deal (live) is launched, things like loot and hierarchy start to matter.

Finally someone who thinks the same way as i do.

Well said, i have to agree 100% there.

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Well I'll be honest, from your latest replies I see you are interested in doing nothing but bitching. You don't like large guilds, ok we get it. Thats perfectly fine. You asked Kyp about making it possible to form Alliances with other guilds, I guess some way to make it 'offical'. Then a few lines later you say alliances are no different than the big,bad evil large guilds. Which is it? Like I said, you just want to bitch and my guess is someone in one of these big guilds made you mad because they wouldn't share or give you something.

The only thing you've said that I can agree with is the mentality that whenever the EMU goes live the competition will increase. That will happen, it's already happening now to a smaller degree. As for the 1v1 turning into a 6v1, so what? If your guild doesnt even have 6 people in it then why even be guilded? And if you really want to know something, 1v3-4-5-6 isn't a big deal (you gotta remember out of those 6, probably 2 are healers (not very high dmg classes, and most likely 1 JE that is someones alt who hits like a limp noodle); so that 1v6 is more like a 1v3-½. Ive watched people rant and rave, bitch and moan cause they cant out damage me. I see what they are doing wrong, I laugh at them for not being able to think for themselves. So being out numbered doesnt always mean anything.

I wasn't in STATIC in live, don't know what happened or what rumors about then are true/or lies. Anyways I'm done with this thread, if I've pissed you off in-game on a boss spawn so be it. When it comes to bosses and you don't have (STATIC) under your ship you'll have to earn the kill. Perhaps you should adopt a similar feeling.

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The comments made here about "guilds owning spawns" and such, reinforces my opinion that guilds where prematurely implemented and the only thing they accomplish is to divide the already small player base.

I was also in a big guild and had a good time with everybody, but after a few months it became monotonous, doing the same raids with the same people every day so I left and made my old guild. The outcome was the same, felt isolated from the general population and like the previous guild, issues arose do partly do to the same reasons, put a few people together, doing the same thing everyday, get comfortable with guild chat and your bound to say something that's going to be blown out of proportion or context and poof, hard feelings.

Before guilds where implemented chat was full of (LFG cl so n so), ( mining group LFM)......the server was working as one and everybody had a good time.

Now its more like @#$%#( guild name) ksing our boss that we camped and its ours, we own it....@#$%@

IMHO guilds should be disabled for now and until the player base is large enough we need to work together on this project.

my 2.2 credits Rez over and out

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Well I'll be honest, from your latest replies I see you are interested in doing nothing but bitching. You don't like large guilds, ok we get it. Thats perfectly fine. You asked Kyp about making it possible to form Alliances with other guilds, I guess some way to make it 'offical'. Then a few lines later you say alliances are no different than the big,bad evil large guilds. Which is it?

If you read properly there is structure to what I said and how it was said. And it is somewhat different to what you try to make me out as saying.

First I come with a suggestion:

''But small guilds need something to counter this. Perhaps the ability to form an 'alliance', a group of guilds, could be implemented. This way the smaller sized guilds do not neccesarily need to lose out when it comes to raids.''

Then I ask the most obvious counterquestion:

''Question is how different is an alliance to a large guild?''

Then an answer is supplied:

''I know from another mmorpg (GW) that there is definitely a difference between guilds (ppl a lot closer to you) and an alliance (people not too close but do have a common goal).''

So, read post properly before you give a raging reply PLS B)

Like I said, you just want to bitch and my guess is someone in one of these big guilds made you mad because they wouldn't share or give you something.

My motive has been stated in the OP.

I wasn't in STATIC in live, don't know what happened or what rumors about then are true/or lies. Anyways I'm done with this thread, if I've pissed you off in-game on a boss spawn so be it. When it comes to bosses and you don't have (STATIC) under your ship you'll have to earn the kill. Perhaps you should adopt a similar feeling.

Don't worry, killstealing is not in my vocabulary.

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@Tyran

I do understand a little of where you're coming from, but at the same time, many of those perceptions are simply illusions. I think you're giving too much credit/emphasis to the idea of large guilds. There's no real difference between folks in a guild versus folks that aren't OTHER a tag and a private chat channel in game. There are no other benefits gained from being in a guild right now, no guild vaults, etc.

However, having the private chat channel is incredibly empowering. It makes communications very easy, and there is some automatic inclusion into activities by mere fact of being in the same guild, but that's down to personalities, not something about guilds that's good or bad. Some folks simply prefer the relatively less chatty guild channel than newplayers/ooc/market/general chat, and you can't blame them for personal preference.

Really though, anyone can create their own private channel and invite folks to it. Or folks can simply use general/market, etc as long as the chat nazis don't complain.

Being in a guild doesn't currently auto-assign loot rights or anything like that, so again there's nothing here that prevents folks from different guilds/solo players from participating in group hunting/raiding.

Give you an example. On Orion there were MANY publicly organized raids. Some of the most well respected raid leaders were from the big guilds, sure. They had the experience and organizational skills, but they never barred anyone from joining the raid, regardless of guild tag. It was simply that PERSON that was a good raid leader, not his/her guild. They gained respect as an individual by participating in market channel and helping others.

Guilds aren't inherently good/bad. There's no reason for any kind of extra development to create a pseudo-guild.

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