Shield leech/sap

[Hexersup[IS]]

Another thing to consider is... The Prima guide at launch was obsolete in many ways as I recall, and much more so after launch and more balance tweaking happened. I still have my copy sitting next to my desk.

As a TT all through live, I can tell you that a JE was very neccessary in raids for battery purposes if nothing else.

Also, Sap was on a fairly short timer, and folks didn't spam it due to energy used. Everyone didn't have uber reactors then. I remember on my alt PW only using it when absolutely needed.

Yes, Prima Guide was already in about 6 months in most cases obsolete.

And yes the PWs did spam their skill just on lower levels, mostly for faction grinding. I never saw a PW using shield leech on raids.

I raid a lot with my guild, and we hit all bosses. I am a PW so i love a TT in my group , i'm addicted to their bubbles its true.To do FB and to stay in the mobs faces we get two groups plus together and need 4 healers. I think its great that we need more then a group to do raids, was bored with soloing bosses.

As far as the nerfs go i need to ask this question, Is the motovation to balance classes in DPS? if so i can see one problem . In a raid if a PW can not hold agro and bosses/mobs start in on classes other then PWs with smaller hulls and less HDC things could go south and fast. im talking about TEs and JDs of course. I dont think DPS was balanced in live. i could be wrong tho.

Anyway , just wanted to thank the Dev team for making us need more ppl to do raids . Its way more fun beating the bosses as a team.

Here i would say, in live it was always the case that not only one had the agro because he was dead in some seconds if in range.

Means, in FB for example, they did so much damage that, if you did not spread the mobs enough you were dead, and not only one.

So i'm not glad about the system right now, that one PW can hold the agro all the time and the others in the group can sit and laugh about the mobs. That wasn't in live. You could always be a target even if the main target was the PW.

But here, even if all are shooting it seems the PW can hold always the agro. I don't think that should be the case.

greets

Hexergirl

[fuulishone]

I think when they say balance, they are referring to balancing what each class can do and what they have available so that we don't have a server full of just one class and nobody else. There definitely should not be a balance in dps between the classes. PW's should be able to take and deliver more dps than any other class in the game (hence the nickname 'tank class') However a group of all PW's should not be successful in a raid, it should require that a supporting class or two be involved.

Agree with the take more part, but not the deliver more part. Making a class that can both take a ton of punishment and be the superior class to dish it out is exactly how you get single class populations. That's completely opposite to what you're trying to say in the first sentence. Who would want to play a TE or a JD if PW's own both in tank and dps roles? Even by modern military standards, "tanks" aren't the dps kings. Bombers are.

Here i would say, in live it was always the case that not only one had the agro because he was dead in some seconds if in range.

Means, in FB for example, they did so much damage that, if you did not spread the mobs enough you were dead, and not only one.

So i'm not glad about the system right now, that one PW can hold the agro all the time and the others in the group can sit and laugh about the mobs. That wasn't in live. You could always be a target even if the main target was the PW.

But here, even if all are shooting it seems the PW can hold always the agro. I don't think that should be the case.

greets

Hexergirl

I'm not sure if this is how folks played in live, but PWs did have a skill called Enrage. It's skill description would seem to indicate that PWs are supposed to use this skill to maintain aggro, and that simple damage done wasn't the only mechanism for determining who had aggro. Was this how it was in live? I don't know, I'm sure others could tell you.

It would be great if this was true as it would solve a number of issues/concerns and remove the misconception that PWs need more dps than any other class in order to hold aggro.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Fuulish

[mjrdude12]

When in a raid (during "live") agro was stolen from the mob by any healer that cast a heal. This was especially true in all of the raids that I attended. As a TT you knew before the raid that much xp debt was to be had if warriors couldn't hold agro.

About Shield Sap on PW's: IIRC this skill was one of the "added" skills that came out around the same time as CF, and SC (shield charging). Each class got an added skill after release, can't remember what they all were. But I do remember all the uproar on the EnB forums about shortage of SP before adding them. And shortly after came the buddy system with SP as reward for new accts.

If you read the (obsolete Prima guide) you'll find no mention of Sap in the PW section.

I do agree that if a PW can solo boss mobs that it is overpowered though. I have not personally done this with my PW, nor watched it be done when in a raid group with my TT. As it is, my TT stays too busy healing to do anything like type in chat, etc.

[r8rsfans75]

Agree with the take more part, but not the deliver more part. Making a class that can both take a ton of punishment and be the superior class to dish it out is exactly how you get single class populations. That's completely opposite to what you're trying to say in the first sentence. Who would want to play a TE or a JD if PW's own both in tank and dps roles? Even by modern military standards, "tanks" aren't the dps kings. Bombers are.

I should clarify my point. If you want to not be very mobile, just sit, point and shoot (tank), then a PW is what you want. A TE or a JD should not be able to match a PW dps-wise in this type of combat. It could however be possible that you could achieve a higher dps with a JD or a TE using tactics that require more attention (more movement, more clicks, different skills etc)

[HellHasArrived]

Yes, Prima Guide was already in about 6 months in most cases obsolete.

And yes the PWs did spam their skill just on lower levels, mostly for faction grinding. I never saw a PW using shield leech on raids.

Here i would say, in live it was always the case that not only one had the agro because he was dead in some seconds if in range.

Means, in FB for example, they did so much damage that, if you did not spread the mobs enough you were dead, and not only one.

So i'm not glad about the system right now, that one PW can hold the agro all the time and the others in the group can sit and laugh about the mobs. That wasn't in live. You could always be a target even if the main target was the PW.

But here, even if all are shooting it seems the PW can hold always the agro. I don't think that should be the case.

greets

Hexergirl

I assure you having been in the FB with my PW and having all the agro... My guildmates weren't laughing about the mobs. They were doing everything they can to make sure i didn't die, because if i did that would mean the whole group would fall apart.

[Taallonn]

I should clarify my point. If you want to not be very mobile, just sit, point and shoot (tank), then a PW is what you want. A TE or a JD should not be able to match a PW dps-wise in this type of combat. It could however be possible that you could achieve a higher dps with a JD or a TE using tactics that require more attention (more movement, more clicks, different skills etc)

Actually in live, my JD often times did more damage than an equally geared TE and PW. I even did more than entire groups, at times. How it is now I am not too sure as i play a JT, but yeah JD's were very powerful if the person knew how to play and had the right beam config for the mobs they were killing.

By the same token Healers got a lot of heal agro, especially when mordana were introduced. PW had to use enrage as a taunt to get agro off the healers, and if I remember correct, most the time the TT would have to wait a few sec before even casting a shield recharge just so the PW had the added threat first. Agro wasn't all about the damage. Hacking, debuffing, healing, all of it affected the mob in different ways, depending on how that mob was programed.

I recall JE's being sought after in groups as batteries with their shield leach. Not sure of the interval's between use, but it was enough to have pretty much every group want them due to the extremely usefulness of that ability for a group.

[fuulishone]

I recall JE's being sought after in groups as batteries with their shield leach. Not sure of the interval's between use, but it was enough to have pretty much every group want them due to the extremely usefulness of that ability for a group.

Of course, JE's being able to dual-wield (WoW term) Phoenix 9 devices were a big help too.

[r8rsfans75]

Actually in live, my JD often times did more damage than an equally geared TE and PW. I even did more than entire groups, at times.

Which is fundamentally wrong IMO.

[fuulishone]

Actually in live, my JD often times did more damage than an equally geared TE and PW. I even did more than entire groups, at times. How it is now I am not too sure as i play a JT, but yeah JD's were very powerful if the person knew how to play and had the right beam config for the mobs they were killing.

Doing more than an equally geared TE / PW consistently was probably a true statement only for very specific mobs (due to debuffs, resists, etc) and conditions. More than an entire group though is inappropriate, and probably why there were nerfs (balance fixes) to the JDs and turbo and such in Live. No one class should ever outdps an actual group that's got more than one player shooting. In a straight shootout, no solo warrior of any class should outdps any combination of two warriors. In all cases, the two warriors should always win regardless of class breakdown.

[Bellshade]

Looking at this thread i get the idea that PW dont want to see this nerf happen and all the other race/classes are behind it . Shocker ! lol . My main is a PW so i really dont want the nerf to take place ,but i see this nerf will happen . Time to mothball my PW and start playing my TE. TE's can solo GoBB and i've seen a TE's hack take out 204k shields from mordana and no one talks about nerfing them so its a safe move for me

I bet the TE's will prob be top DPS after this anyway so let the nerf bat swing!! \

PS dont forget to have fun guys

[ENB4lafe6]

I disagree with the need for balancing at this stage of the game.

Lore has set up Factions, each with their own adversarial and interdependent relationships.

Certain classes are meant to be better than others at certain things.

Rock, paper, scissors...

Not paper, paper, paper.

Shouldn't the game and it's bugs be the focus, first and foremost?

Before the nerf bats start swinging and create new problems?

[CheezeBaal]

i tend to agree with dora. while game and player balance is important, i think the most important things should be the underlying server code (dev server crash anyone?), getting

mobs and their AI working correctly and current bugs.

how can you worry about "balance" before you get mobs in their final or semifinal form?

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

i would say place a cooldown timer, like i live.

check my topic which discusses timers/cooldowns in devices and mostly skills

[Yuritau]

I would GREATLY prefer a lesser drain, but the ability to drain repeatedly.

[JLittge]

As much as I hate to bring other game systems into the picture, I want to introduce a system that may work with this game. I've read the previous posts, and while alot of things shared has merit, in my opinion misses one key element.

To encourage skill progression, as well as to prevent the use of downranking to circumvent encounters is to remove fixed reactor costs based on skill level. eg: Lets say rank 1 shield sap costs 20 reactor power, while rank 2 costs 40 reactor power etc. Instead, let's impose a percentage of base reactor cost of say 20% across the board. Another words regardless of whether you use rank 1 or rank 9 the cost is the same. A percentage of your base reactor power. It should be inefficient to use a skill rank below your intended level which can devalue the worth of a higher rank. If your OL-150 there is absolutely no reason why you would want to use rank-3 of an ability rather then your full potential.

Of course this system has alot of upfront overhead as you would need to balance all players skills as well as mob skills to ensure proper balance, but having a fixed energy requirement based on a skill will promote downranking and defeat the purpose of strategy and teamwork. This is not a perfect system, but likely the healthiest in the long term.

With that said items themselves would need to adopt simular fashions, asd would promote a wider array of ship equipment. Right now everyone pretty much uses the same crap. Create items to help with reactor recharge rates for say JE's only so they have a more prominent role. Not all classes bring firepower, nor should they at raid level encounters. So instead of bringing 3 beams, fill weapon slots with reactor transfering stuff, and for TT's fill missile mounts with maybe some kind of shield or hull whatever you want to call em to help. No idea what you would call it or how you would work em persay, but be creative. A JE isnt gonna shoot 3 silly beams and tip the scales. Just like fantasy games, a healer isnt going to go toe to toe with a 60 foot dragon. Make use of all slots even weapon slots with meaningful utilities and gadgets. Edited March 13, 2011 by Admiral Zyrain

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='Admiral Zyrain' timestamp='1300001197' post='36386']
To encourage skill progression, as well as to prevent the use of downranking to circumvent encounters is to remove fixed reactor costs based on skill level. eg: Lets say rank 1 shield sap costs 20 reactor power, while rank 2 costs 40 reactor power etc. Instead, let's impose a percentage of base reactor cost of say 20% across the board. Another words regardless of whether you use rank 1 or rank 9 the cost is the same. A percentage of your base reactor power. It should be inefficient to use a skill rank below your intended level which can devalue the worth of a higher rank. If your OL-150 there is absolutely no reason why you would want to use rank-3 of an ability rather then your full potential.
[/quote]

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but I see a problem here. Shield Leech, and many other skills for that matter, have area of effect for level 6 and Level 7. There are situations where as a JE it doesn't make sense for me to use L6 or L7 Shield Leech. Say I'm mining an orefield, and there are 3 orefield guardians, one of which has aggroed on me. I may not want to cast L6 or L7 leech while fighting the one that's aggroed, because then I may have one or both of the other two aggroed on me as well if they're in range to be hit, but haven't aggroed on me yet. Why, if I have Shield Leech maxed, should I have to pay the L7 energy cost, in those situations where L5 would be the better choice, simply because L5 is single target, whereas L7 is area of effect.

I do think that we should, accross the board, have more choices in equipment for our ships. I don't know the practicality of the weapon idea as far as making equipment that fits into weapon slots, but acts as devices. Instead simply design a few more items, that aren't devices, but are race apropraite with the equipment engineering buff. Device swaps would work faster.

[garblesoup]

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1300004535' post='36387']
I agree with most of the rest of your post, but I see a problem here. Shield Leech, and many other skills for that matter, have area of effect for level 6 and Level 7. There are situations where as a JE it doesn't make sense for me to use L6 or L7 Shield Leech. Say I'm mining an orefield, and there are 3 orefield guardians, one of which has aggroed on me. I may not want to cast L6 or L7 leech while fighting the one that's aggroed, because then I may have one or both of the other two aggroed on me as well if they're in range to be hit, but haven't aggroed on me yet. Why, if I have Shield Leech maxed, should I have to pay the L7 energy cost, in those situations where L5 would be the better choice, simply because L5 is single target, whereas L7 is area of effect.

I do think that we should, accross the board, have more choices in equipment for our ships. I don't know the practicality of the weapon idea as far as making equipment that fits into weapon slots, but acts as devices. Instead simply design a few more items, that aren't devices, but are race apropraite with the equipment engineering buff. Device swaps would work faster.
[/quote]

Well said. If I cast a less-than-max skill why should I pay the same reactor use as the max skill?

[capucius]

Sorry I do not like this restriction

As a PW grouped fighting a mob my shield inversion my be the only thing keeping me alive. I would like to see the timer lowered so I can use this skill again faster not be put on hold for 2 mins. I would be dead everytime...
If you want a bigger challange just have one less member in your group in the fishbowl.


[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1294631390' post='31819']
If this is changed, can Shield Leech be based on Explore Levels rather than Combat Levels, since JE's usually level up Combat last? Not to mention all JE's skills, except Builds & Weapons are EL based.
[/quote]

[Moche]

looks like this thread was slightly necroed but to throw in my 2 cents... i remember there being that 2 minute timer on mobs in live, it wasn't on the skill because you could leach on mobs that joined in later without hitting the first ones again it did add an ellement of strategy to the skill use. it made the leaching skills far less desireable, in that they were not mandatory they were something that you leveled with extra points or post 150 points not the first choice. as is they are used as primary offensives and as substitutes for tradesmen, you'd be a fool not to keep them topped off as they work at the moment.

believe me the PW solo ability is incredible even with a 2 minute mob based timer, though there were always the excessively macho players, most progens did indeed kite and very successfuly. wich made these skills often useless because they were out of range. you had to be carefull about closing the gap with your mob because they usually had friends right behind that would pound you. but all these shorter range skills came out to play when you were in a group with a tradesman so you could get close and a strap on battery... err JE.

as to a previous posters comment... many JE and TT in live only equiped weapons that buffed their skills in raids, they frequently vaulted their good solo and group hunting weapons for raid gear. many went in with no weapons at all because frankly 3-4 low turbo low crit rate weapons are nothing compared to the high turbo perma crit attacks of the warrior classes, and we all had our jobs not all of which involved shooting. so you better believe that TT's dusted off their smuggler's recourse and then just equiped other things that buffed resists like red dragonfly's for raids, JE's might use a ghost edge for reactor buff but they also might not to reduce their scan range cause they would lag out their group with excessive visability. remember those device slots filled up quick with most people always using a greasemonkey plus to deal with frequent hacks and a Laz cause sometimes you do need to warp out right after a jumpstart.

this discussion as a whole seems premature though as balancing the game presntly is wasted time, wait untill mobs have a robust AI that keeps them from pathing over you, balling up on eachother, virtually ignoring signature and scan range, having totally random speeds with bursts that keep them from beeing properly kited at shorter ranges, and are using proper skills and attacks at a variety of specific ranges. untill our mobs act like live mobs i don't worry that my skills are not quite like live. once the foundation is layed and solid i'll be all over the skill nitpicking and ballance issues. Edited May 10, 2011 by Moche

[capucius]

The person who keeps saying make the PW's and JE's shield sap/leech cool down time longer is insane.


Example: Let's put a big engine in this race car and add a governor that restricts it to 55 miles per hour.

People in the name of FUN! We should be adding to all class skills and work on the AI that make those mobs more of a challenge to fight. Rcently I was fighting a mob that was using several different skills on me. They sapped my shield, drained
my reactor and had a warp gravity hold on me. It was great I almost died and barely got free....

So bottom line GIVE US BETTER SKILLS!!! and NOT SCREW with THEM! MAKE SUPER AI MOBS!!!

[Mattsacre]

Well if memory serves me right..you're not even factoring fail/pass rate in. Sap didn't take every time in live..nor did most skills..grav didnit either etc. There was some formula at play that at CL vs. mob it was x fail/pass and then decended as higher lvl mobs than your CL was engaged. Menace had a huge fail rate for PS but GL had a decent hit rate.

Why not factor fail/pass in with a fast cooldown timer? With lower tier skill having faster proc rate but demished returns. Then the person that wants to use say low lvl sap many times but increasing chance of hit but lower shield draw, or the guy that rolls the dice at higher tier sap get larger gain if it takes.

sort of like this:
PW CL50 vs. CL50 mob, fail/pass base rate 80%. Uses highest tier sap, rolls 82 fail= no sap, rolls 45 hits for x shield draw per tier lvl.

PW CL50 vs CL50 mob same fail pass but uses lower tier sap BUT cooldown less hits x shield draw for tier USED, but fail/pass at highest tier.

PW CL50 vs. CL55 fail/pass base rate (base rate 80% - 5% per lvl = 55%). Uses sap highest tier sap, rolls 82 fail= no sap, rolls 45 hits for x shield draw per tier lvl.


PW CL50 vs CL55 mob same 55% hit chance same tier lvl x shield draw for tier used but fail/pass at higher tier lvl


This has some benefits:
1.soloing PW may choose lower tier sap for faster cooldowns but consistant shield returns, or chance it on the big hit and if misses have the "oh crap got to boogy" factor.

2.Same soloing PW is less likely to use area sap if he is amongst several mobs so he don't get the whole area on him, if he does risk the added agro he gets the added chance of a hit on additional mobs at fail/pass rate.

3.Grouped PW would likely have healer and WANTs the group mob agro and will use the big hit possible to help healer not take agro.

4.second group possible in area, the problem with the "mob not sappable for x amount of timer" is if a PW uses area sap he would trip the timer for a possible second group leveling in area, precluding them from using sap/leech on their mob as needed.

5. If you use the mob not second sap/leechable for x amount of time you are going to have to have a SEPERATE mob clock for every mob in that region, I would imagine that would be a resource eater especially when there is a high mob count.