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Shield leech/sap


Tienbau

Live or current system  

36 members have voted

  1. 1. Which leech/sap/drain system would you prefer?

    • Same as live (large drains, but limited to once per 2 mins on each mob).
      18
    • Current system (unlimited drains but lower drain level).
      18


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Hi, this is a request to get a feel for how you'd all think about this proposed change to the leech and sap skills.

I re-read the Prima JE strategy guide from live, the important paragraph copied below:

...Whenever you’re grouped with another JE, it’s important to decide who has the highest SL

skill and then have only that JE use SL. The 2 minute timer is per mob, so two JE’s cannot SL the

same mob within the same 2 minutes. (In other words, each individual mob can only be Shield

Leeched once every two minutes, so once you’ve leeched it, no one else can for 120 seconds,

including you.) Therefore it’s important to make sure that the strongest available SL is the one that

gets used...

At the moment, the actual amount of shield energy shield leech and sap take are set way too low. This is made up for by the way you can keep leeching over and over. It's a pretty lame system.

What we propose to do is to ramp up the amount of shield these skills take from the mob, in accordance with the player's leech/sap skill and combat levels. So at a high level these skills would be capable of stripping a CL30 mob's shields bare or leaving a slightly lower level organic's health bar empty.

At the same time, re-implement the timer so you can only use these skills once per 2 minutes on each mob.

There would be no distinction between sapping energy from organics or mechanical mobs.

I think the live system was a lot better than what we've got now. Much more strategy involved.

Please vote on if you prefer the live system, or the current system.

Ta,

TB

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If this is changed, can Shield Leech be based on Explore Levels rather than Combat Levels, since JE's usually level up Combat last? Not to mention all JE's skills, except Builds & Weapons are EL based.

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Combat level wouldn't affect the skill as much as the actual skill level, but since it's a combat skill, it would be dependent on the player's combat level. Same as PW's sap.

As I've said before, currently a PW's shield sap is slightly OP. Setup right very few mobs can kill a PW in a 1v1 situation. That said, I'd rather see a middle road taken instead of the 2 options we seem to have available. Put Shield Sap back to its pre-nerf level or very close to it (atleast 80% pre-nerf value) but give it a 45 second or 1 minute cooldown. This version you mentioned seems to go from very OP to pretty bleh, even with the buff to how much you get back the timer really limits the PW. This will keep the skill usable, but still require smart decisions by the PW to get the max out of it at raids and higher end mobs.

And the discussion seems to revolve around Shield Sap/Leech, what about the JD's Energy Leech, will it be fixed and given the same treatment as these two?

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Hmm. I can't believe it's been that long that I don't remember any of this from live, assuming the PW's shield sap works off the some system. At first thought, the per-mob timer sounds quite annoying, but it seems, the more I consider it, a good way to keep large groups of a shield-sapping class from obliterating a mob in seconds. I think moderate damage with a 1 minute per-mob cooldown seems fun and prevents spam and infinite PW soloing ability.

This also bring shield recharging to mind. I've noticed that a PP can really dominate with a good reactor, having an essentially infinite amount of shielding at its disposal. How was that skill handled in live?

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shield sap was 'nerfed'/'balanced' but it's back the way it was pre-'nerf' now.

We chatted about it in game and there is a reasonable third way of dealing with it - have the mob recovery timer variable depending on how badly hit they were by the leech/sap, going from a minor energy pull taking say 20 seconds to 2 minutes to recover from a fully levelled sap/leech.

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This also bring shield recharging to mind. I've noticed that a PP can really dominate with a good reactor, having an essentially infinite amount of shielding at its disposal. How was that skill handled in live?

In Live, only the TT had shield recharge and had to manage with a lv8 reactor. Usually what players did was have the JE be a battery for the TT via the Pheonix devices.

I think Shield Recharge may have had a small cooldown on it in live, combined with the cast-time. But thats just from memory which might be completely wrong.

We chatted about it in game and there is a reasonable third way of dealing with it - have the mob recovery timer variable depending on how badly hit they were by the leech/sap, going from a minor energy pull taking say 20 seconds to 2 minutes to recover from a fully levelled sap/leech.

Only problem I can see with this is depending on how its implemented it could lead to PWs just downranking the level of Sap they use. Maybe maxing the skill out, but only to buff the transfer factor and not with the intention of using the higher levels of the skill. Currently with max shield sap, even Shield Transfer (rank 3 of the skill IIRC) will restore around 30% of a lv9 shield. If thats castable every 20seconds you havent solved much of the problem. And thats at the current values on Shield Sap, if you buff the skill to what this article says it should be at that number could easily approach 45% or more.

*EDIT* Another potential issue is you could group 2 PWs, the main tank using Shield Transfer (single target) and the 2nd one using Area Sap as an emergency heal since the other mobs will not have the sap immunity. Of course this could be done as well giving the skill a straight 1 minute cooldown and may even be more likely to happen since the first PW isn't healing every 20 seconds or so.

In a raid setting if a PW can still heal himself for 45% every 20 seconds, with the option to heal himself for more if he needs to, then that takes the pressure off of the TT/JT/PT by a great deal. Raid Mobs will need to deal 90k or more damage per shot, or about 12k to 15k dps assuming most mobs have a reload time of 7-8 seconds(after resists are factored in) to make it a challenge.

Just in my opinion there are two viable solutions:

1.) give the skill a 1 minute cooldown at the current 'power' and see how it works, you may need to change it to 1 minute and 20seconds or maybe reduce the cooldown 50 seconds. Just have to see how much it effects the gameplay

OR

2.) Buff it like you intend, and make each rank give an additional 15 second cooldown (1 minute and 45 seconds at max rank) that effects every rank of the skill. IE Have Sap level-3 gives it a 45sec cooldown, going to rank 4 gives it a 1 minute cooldown reguardless if you use rank 1 (Shield Drain) or rank 3 (shield transfer). This way as the skill gets stronger, the cooldown gets longer, but it also keeps the skill somewhat usable for a leveling PW. But I'm not sure if this solution is even possible to program in.

Edited by Whitelighter
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In Live, only the TT had shield recharge and had to manage with a lv8 reactor. Usually what players did was have the JE be a battery for the TT via the Pheonix devices.

I think Shield Recharge may have had a small cooldown on it in live, combined with the cast-time. But thats just from memory which might be completely wrong.

That raises a really important point. I had forgotten the incredible power advantage the mighty Progen have over the poor Terran swine... *cough* sorry... What I mean to say is that, much as I hate to say this, the PP may need to have its shield recharging ability frustrated in some way. Really, the PP makes the TT useless in group combat; why have some silly Terran healer when you can have a tank/DPS that heals as well? The only thing the PP is missing right now is a cupholder. :) As much as I love that class (fun as hell to play), it seems like their possession of the shield recharging skill, combined with their excellent Progen combat stats, really hurts the TT's desirability in a raid atm. Disclaimer: I haven't played much recently; Am I wrong?

Just in my opinion there are two viable solutions:

1.) give the skill a 1 minute cooldown at the current 'power' and see how it works, you may need to change it to 1 minute and 20seconds or maybe reduce the cooldown 50 seconds. Just have to see how much it effects the gameplay

OR

2.) Buff it like you intend, and make each rank give an additional 15 second cooldown (1 minute and 45 seconds at max rank) that effects every rank of the skill. IE Have Sap level-3 gives it a 45sec cooldown, going to rank 4 gives it a 1 minute cooldown reguardless if you use rank 1 (Shield Drain) or rank 3 (shield transfer). This way as the skill gets stronger, the cooldown gets longer, but it also keeps the skill somewhat usable for a leveling PW. But I'm not sure if this solution is even possible to program in.

I think the first one is a great interim solution while a more complicated and balanced system is figured out.

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Combat level wouldn't affect the skill as much as the actual skill level, but since it's a combat skill, it would be dependent on the player's combat level. Same as PW's sap.

This would effectively hurt JEs who are leveling up to base it on CL, rather than EL, considering what the class does and that JEs while leveling up will have their CL lag behind TL and EL. Menace on the PE is arguably the best combat skill in the game; however, it's not your CL that allows you to raise it, but EL. This makes sense since the Sentinel is a Progen Explorer. For the Jenquai Explorer it makes sense that, like almost all of his other skills, it be EL based. Cloak is a combat skill, that's EL based, so are E-Shield (raise deflects, feedback), & Fold Space.

Count me as a vote for leaving the skill like it is.

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That raises a really important point. I had forgotten the incredible power advantage the mighty Progen have over the poor Terran swine... *cough* sorry... What I mean to say is that, much as I hate to say this, the PP may need to have its shield recharging ability frustrated in some way. Really, the PP makes the TT useless in group combat; why have some silly Terran healer when you can have a tank/DPS that heals as well? The only thing the PP is missing right now is a cupholder. :) As much as I love that class (fun as hell to play), it seems like their possession of the shield recharging skill, combined with their excellent Progen combat stats, really hurts the TT's desirability in a raid atm. Disclaimer: I haven't played much recently; Am I wrong?

Shield recharge is nice in a raid situation but definitely not overpowered. Whenever I have been on raids, we like having a TT around for kiting and hull repair purposes. The PP is definitely better in combat than a TT, but that is to be expected. Progen should be better in straight combat compared to a Terran, but I don't believe that makes a TT useless.

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I'm with Terrell on leaving the skills the way they are. Start messing around with them and I'm sure you are gonna make people angry. As for the PP replacing the TT, I don't think that's true. In our guild raids we have more TT's then PP's. As much reactor power as the PP has all it can do is shield recharge. The TT can do that supercharge shields and hull patch all very desirable skills in raids.

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Some questions/comments:

1. With respect to having any tie to the player's CL. Do you mean this as a modifier depending on the mob's CL in comparison to the player's? Such that someone fighting an equal or lower CL mob would get the full tooltip benefit from the skill, while fighting a higher CL mob would take a penalty on the amount drained? If it's simply this then it would be okay, even for JEs, to tie the skill to CL is some fashion, if only in this fashion.

2. A per mob timer, which seems more strategically interesting in a group, seems to be punishing while solo. It also seems to be an overly complicated set of bookkeeping in the server if you need to track all these little timers and feels like something that could have a profound impact on lag. Doesn't seem like much of a gain for the players, sorry.

3. How hard would it be to code in diminishing returns on the skill and have it based on the mob? An example:

- A group of OL150s engage a multi-spawn mob group consisting of a CL50, 52, 54. These levels are deceiving as this is a raid spawn and these are million hp mobs.

- Everyone in the group is doing their normal jobs (dps, heal, debuff). At some point the JE notices Trader's reactor is half (thanks to the group reactor level command) and hits Group Shield Leech on the CL50 (single target, provides reactor to the group). It works per the tooltip and tops everyone off with X reactor juice.

- CL50 mob still not dead, some time has passed, reactors are low again. JE does it again on CL50, but as the CL50 has been drained once already, the next application only gets 90% value. Everyone in the group gets some reactor, but only 0.9 * X.

- CL50 mob still not dead, there's another JE in the group. They go to do the Shield Leech on the CL50, but it's already been drained twice before, so further DR (diminishing return) is in effect, this time it only takes 80% of the tooltip value. Some reactor gained is now 0.8 * X. etc. etc.

- CL50 dead, now CL52. As Area Shield Leech wasn't used, this mob has no DR on it yet. First application of SL takes (X * (1.0 - ((mob CL - player CL) / 20))) = X * 0.9 due to the level penalty. The next application of SL takes DR into consideration and it becomes (X * 0.9) * 0.9 = X * 0.81.

With the combo of DR and mob level taken into consideration, you can balance the tooltip base amount and cooldown timer a little better, without having to worry about per mob/per player timers. This method would make it more palatable to have a shorter cooldown timer so that solo players aren't penalized for using the skill, and in group it doesn't become an all powerful tool either. The rate of DR can be tweaked for balance, my numbers are purely for example.

DR becomes a debuff counter and takes into account all JEs using the skill, so in a group it's strategically important to communicate and choose which mob to SL, not just willy-nilly use Area SL without consequence.

I believe a variant of this could be applied to PW Shield Sap as well.

Thoughts?

Sorry for the algebra, without real values in front of me, I can't give explicit examples, but I think you get the idea.

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I have only one explorer amongst my toons, a TS, and he would not be my choice in a combat group unless brought along for his combat support skills. In fact his primary funtion has morphed into a gatherer of ammo ores to supply my Privateer. Like all miners he deals less damage then his Trader and Warrior counterparts. In his case, because he is unable to build his ammo and has fewer weapons.

IMO shield leech/sap is a combat skill, much like having an additional weapon, and should be linked to combat level not explore level. As far as the timer goes, perhaps the timer should increase as the skill level increases until you reach the 2 min's at max level as it was in "Live".

I do not agree with diminishing damage for skills or weapons. Way too much math involved there. I haven't noticed any drop off of damage dealt by mobs as a battle progresses, so why impose that on players?

There are still, and hopefully will continue to be, many solo players. Please don't make that aspect any more difficult than it already is or all that will be left is dual-boxers and a few guilds.

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IMO shield leech/sap is a combat skill, much like having an additional weapon, and should be linked to combat level not explore level. As far as the timer goes, perhaps the timer should increase as the skill level increases until you reach the 2 min's at max level as it was in "Live".

In my coding experience (client/server code, etc) "timers" of any sort tend to be very bad things and take up lots of server resources. It's also counter-intuitive for a skill to take longer the higher you level it. That just makes folks spend less points into the skill which isn't what skill progression is about.

I do not agree with diminishing damage for skills or weapons. Way too much math involved there. I haven't noticed any drop off of damage dealt by mobs as a battle progresses, so why impose that on players?

There's already much math in the game, some more math that's cheap and easy to implement on the server shouldn't be an issue for players. And I never mentioned DR on weapons, just skills. Weapon damage shouldn't change as it's a static element in combat that already has baked into it some randomness (misses/crits/range).

It's been said in other threads that skills shouldn't be 100%. DR is one way to make a skill not perfect. Chance is another (which sucks to be honest.) Long timers is the final way. Of all these, I think most folks hate the long timer the most as it hurts solo players the most. Chance is okay for certain skills, but in a group situation makes for very spiky combat and also removes fun. DR is really the only way to balance skills while providing players some strategic choice as to when to use a skill. If you use a skill too often during the course of a battle, it's reasonable for your enemy to get smart to your ways and for the skill to lose it's effectiveness.

You can apply this same thought process to other skills. Think Hack and Biorepress. If the chance was removed and replaced with DR, would you use them more as a Terran?

There are still, and hopefully will continue to be, many solo players. Please don't make that aspect any more difficult than it already is or all that will be left is dual-boxers and a few guilds.

As a primarily solo player due to my RL schedule, my personal opinion is that long timers would make it less fun for me as I'd simply never use the skill(s) unless I absolutely had to. The majority of my combat would not include the use of this skill and it'd be back to the boring fire, fire, fire.

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Well I can't speak for the pw's but as a former tt, I can say that reactor was THE issue with shield recharge. Martyr's heart and a je did the trick in a raid but when it came to soloing, it was all my reactor could do to keep my guns firing let alone keep shields up. The pp has a decided advantage in that respect but being a progen, he should be considerably better in solo combat. In a group, you hopefully have a battery (at least sl works) so the tt should still be valuable for hull patch and shield charge.

Edited by Aiel
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It's also counter-intuitive for a skill to take longer the higher you level it. That just makes folks spend less points into the skill which isn't what skill progression is about.

While I mostly agree with this, in some cases it does make sense to increase the timer as you level the skill. That is commonly used in MMOs to balance powerful abilities. Big, powerful nukes have either a long cast time or a long cooldown. When they don't you have players using them all the time and it leads to awful balance issues. I'm typically against DRs on skills, they are usually poorly thought out and you run the risk stupid players messing up the DR count for the rest (we all know those players are around, and becoming more common lol).

I just can't see DRs being useful on many skills/in many situations with the design of E&B. Even in a raid setting, you rarely face more then 4-5 mobs. Once you knock out 2 it gets easy to finish them off then. Using DRs on a mob simply means I'll use the single target version of skills to get through those first 2 mobs then the healer can kick-back and keep me topped off. The other problem with using a DR system, or as Tien sugguested a immunity after 1 time for x time, is it leads to potential griefing issues. If Group A is fighting boss wave-2 and group B shows up, Group B can AOE Sap the mobs and make the skill not usable to Group-A. If the timer is simply increased as I sugguested then Group-B cant mess up Group-A, Group-B just simply wasted their cooldown.

Lately I have noticed more and more people checking out the EMU. Sure there isn't 50 new players a day, but you see 1-2 actual new players a day (judging by their questions anyway). So you need to consider long-term in any decisions made, once the EMU goes full blown (aka LIVE status and not testing stages) the competition WILL increase, and with it comes greifing. The desire to have the best stuff will mean more, cause we won't lose our characters anymore. I know most players think E&B has a great community, and while it is better than most other MMOs/EMUs not everyone will be best friends with each other when it comes to timed boss spawns or non-instanced raids. The ugly will start to show itself then, and after it happens that first time it will slowly increase.

I done a few quick tests on Shield Sap today after posting my last reply:

Against a CL58 mob, without an energy debuff on it

I was Sapping 40k from the mob AND gaining 58k-61k shield for myself, Every 13 Seconds!

I'm a huge PW fan, was my main in live and is my main now, but there is no way anyone can argue that the skill is balanced.

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While I mostly agree with this, in some cases it does make sense to increase the timer as you level the skill. That is commonly used in MMOs to balance powerful abilities. Big, powerful nukes have either a long cast time or a long cooldown. When they don't you have players using them all the time and it leads to awful balance issues. I'm typically against DRs on skills, they are usually poorly thought out and you run the risk stupid players messing up the DR count for the rest (we all know those players are around, and becoming more common lol).

You're right that there are instances when increased activation time and/or cooldown timer makes sense, but only if the incremental benefit from the higher level is significant enough to overcome the negative. Now it becomes a question of do you allow folks to swap downrank the skill while the higher level one is on cooldown. This is just as much a potential problem and also more housekeeping for the server.

I do understand the issue with accidental triggering of DR, but I think those are opportunities for re-education of the player(s) in question. Mess it up a few times and you tarnish your own reputation.

I just can't see DRs being useful on many skills/in many situations with the design of E&B. Even in a raid setting, you rarely face more then 4-5 mobs. Once you knock out 2 it gets easy to finish them off then. Using DRs on a mob simply means I'll use the single target version of skills to get through those first 2 mobs then the healer can kick-back and keep me topped off. The other problem with using a DR system, or as Tien sugguested a immunity after 1 time for x time, is it leads to potential griefing issues. If Group A is fighting boss wave-2 and group B shows up, Group B can AOE Sap the mobs and make the skill not usable to Group-A. If the timer is simply increased as I sugguested then Group-B cant mess up Group-A, Group-B just simply wasted their cooldown.

I agree that the griefing issue is significant, but again this can be handled even with a DR scenario by simply capping the lowest the DR can go, or allow the DR counter to decay or fall off.

If you really dislike the idea of DR, then go with a percentage rather than a fixed number. That's a natural DR without the grieving conditions as it simply means you affect whatever is left on the mob at the time you activate the skill. Big problem with this is make sure the server code applies the math once the activation cycle is complete and not at the start of the cycle.

I'm simply in favor of ways that don't mess with cooldown timers too much as that tends to make things worse for solo players (at least in my opinion.)

I done a few quick tests on Shield Sap today after posting my last reply:

Against a CL58 mob, without an energy debuff on it

I was Sapping 40k from the mob AND gaining 58k-61k shield for myself, Every 13 Seconds!

I'm a huge PW fan, was my main in live and is my main now, but there is no way anyone can argue that the skill is balanced.

Did you happen to notice what was the mob's starting shield values? And what they were when you activated the Sap?

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Hi, this is a request to get a feel for how you'd all think about this proposed change to the leech and sap skills.

I re-read the Prima JE strategy guide from live, the important paragraph copied below:

"...Whenever you’re grouped with another JE, it’s important to decide who has the highest SL

skill and then have only that JE use SL. The 2 minute timer is per mob, so two JE’s cannot SL the

same mob within the same 2 minutes. (In other words, each individual mob can only be Shield

Leeched once every two minutes, so once you’ve leeched it, no one else can for 120 seconds,

including you.) Therefore it’s important to make sure that the strongest available SL is the one that

gets used..."

IMO this could be the reason why the MOBs seem a little easy to kill, because every JE and PW are spamming the Offense skills.

But the resent FB change's has made it more of a challenge.

"What's good for the Goose is Good for the Gander"tm That would also be the same for the JD Energy Leech every 2 minutes. (Whats the Guide say about that TB, Seriously Curious)

This would also encourage Multi-class groups to be more of the norm.

(JE Shield Leech, PW Shield Sap, and JD Energy Leech)

This may also so cut down on the energy use by eliminating the Offense skill spamming.

This could and should also bring the lag down a little? not having the skill spamming trying to communicating to the server and back to the group.

It should make the Raids more of a challenge and make multi-guild raids more desired and needed.

Phorlaug...

Edited by Phorlaug
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Don't forget, before making any adjustment to Shield Leech, Shield Sap, that mobs aren't really using skills yet. Perhaps we should get the mobs all able to use skills before we further tweak player skills, and see how they work against one another. Changes to the player's skills, before the mobs have their skills ready, may result in having to change the player's skills again if the change is too much.

TBH I'd rather see the Sap/Leech do less damage and be more usable, than them doing more damage and having long delays. Since they're 2 skills for 2 almost totally opposite professions, make the PW's version CL based, and the JE's version EL based, so it's consistent with their other skills, and what they do professionally.

Energy Leech, well that really doesn't damage mobs, as far as I can tell. A noticable return on energy, for using it, would make me consider not leaving it at 3 on my JW. (there have been some times where I noticed a change, but recently I haven't seen a difference)

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Another thing to consider is... The Prima guide at launch was obsolete in many ways as I recall, and much more so after launch and more balance tweaking happened. I still have my copy sitting next to my desk. :D

As a TT all through live, I can tell you that a JE was very neccessary in raids for battery purposes if nothing else.

Also, Sap was on a fairly short timer, and folks didn't spam it due to energy used. Everyone didn't have uber reactors then. I remember on my alt PW only using it when absolutely needed.

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TTs are useful for kiting in groups when the mobs have long range weapons.

by spreading the distance, mobs dps is spread out giving more time to recharge shields.

it's how people have been beating up the mordana in small groups. *shakes fist*

As I remember it, shield leech was very useful at a lower level, but once you got into the area ones it became much less useful. Recharge was pretty slow, could usually only shield leech a difficult mob (like my JE fighting similar level ostrae in VT) once or twice before the mob died. I'm gonna guess it was around a minute. The energy return wasn't great, but covered for the cost of the skill and a little more.

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TTs are useful for kiting in groups when the mobs have long range weapons.

by spreading the distance, mobs dps is spread out giving more time to recharge shields.

it's how people have been beating up the mordana in small groups. *shakes fist*

Don't even need to kite to take them on, once the lag was cleared up a PW/TT combo (even with nerfed sap) is all it takes. Energy gets a bit tight and the spawns of two dig into your hull a bit, but its still quite doable with the right setup, though I still take a JE just to make it easier.

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I raid a lot with my guild, and we hit all bosses. I am a PW so i love a TT in my group , i'm addicted to their bubbles its true.To do FB and to stay in the mobs faces we get two groups plus together and need 4 healers. I think its great that we need more then a group to do raids, was bored with soloing bosses.

As far as the nerfs go i need to ask this question, Is the motovation to balance classes in DPS? if so i can see one problem . In a raid if a PW can not hold agro and bosses/mobs start in on classes other then PWs with smaller hulls and less HDC things could go south and fast. im talking about TEs and JDs of course. I dont think DPS was balanced in live. i could be wrong tho.

Anyway , just wanted to thank the Dev team for making us need more ppl to do raids . Its way more fun beating the bosses as a team.

Edited by Bellash
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I raid a lot with my guild, and we hit all bosses. I am a PW so i love a TT in my group , i'm addicted to their bubbles its true.To do FB and to stay in the mobs faces we get two groups plus together and need 4 healers. I think its great that we need more then a group to do raids, was bored with soloing bosses.

As far as the nerfs go i need to ask this question, Is the motovation to balance classes in DPS? if so i can see one problem . In a raid if a PW can not hold agro and bosses/mobs start in on classes other then PWs with smaller hulls and less HDC things could go south and fast. im talking about TEs and JDs of course. I dont think DPS was balanced in live. i could be wrong tho.

Anyway , just wanted to thank the Dev team for making us need more ppl to do raids . Its way more fun beating the bosses as a team.

I think when they say balance, they are referring to balancing what each class can do and what they have available so that we don't have a server full of just one class and nobody else. There definitely should not be a balance in dps between the classes. PW's should be able to take and deliver more dps than any other class in the game (hence the nickname 'tank class') However a group of all PW's should not be successful in a raid, it should require that a supporting class or two be involved.

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