Cloaking

[GenghisBob]

I jumped on my JE today and found cloaking did not operate as usual. I tried to cloak and uncloak but because of bad lag I'm not sure what was different on purpose and what was lag. Could someone explain what the intended changes were?

I saw Kyp's response to a rant in a miner's thread, but neither the post or the response actually said what was done or why exactly. Are we allowed to know what was done and why?

Kyp indicated they were open to suggestions on how to fix this problem, but didn't tell what the problem was. If we knew what problem was being addressed, maybe other solutions would be offered.

Thanks

Edited December 30, 2010 by GenghisBob

[Lot]

Apparently, any Jenquai using cloak during combat is now an exploit!

It all started with the Mordana raid I guess - the Mordana mostly use missiles to attack players? And those cheeky Jenquai were able to cloak before the missiles hit! So now, I believe the intention is that if you take any damage (not just missiles but projectile or beam damage from any mob) you cannot cloak. You have to steer your Jenquai around behind mob out of it's path of fire before you can cloak again! We were promised that it will be more fun like that!

Further discussion here:

https://enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/3970-bug-cloak

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Which again was interim, but I notice that that's not mentioned.

The problem was simply as Tb explained it was that if you fired (damage type irrelevant here) and could time it appropriately you could always recloak before the mob could successfully fire at you thus rendering you immune to damage as long as your timing was accurate.

Eventually all skills with an activation timer would be interruptable anyway. I'll be one that's ready to admit instantly that it shouldn't interrupt on the first shot, but if a dam breaks, what do you do to stop the water temporarily? You build a temporary dike, this is what the CURRENT thing you're railing about is and even that's assuming that Tienbau hasn't already made some changes as a result of the other thread.

All we ask is that if you are upset, offer ideas. Don't come slinging insults or saying that we're out to destroy the game, it's not going to help you get your way, we just tend to pay less attention to you because from the developer's perspective it looks like you're mad that you've lost this <insert whatever we've repaired or patched temporarily>. Now that may not be true in all cases, but that's certainly the way it seems.

I posted what I posted to Toreava because he had complained on several threads without offering one useful suggestion towards improving it. Just how we broke Jenquai beyond repair, more or less.

We want the game to be fun of course, for everyone.

[Kenu [CDEV]]

Ok so here's how it started. When we were testing the mordana raid darkk showed us the bug where JDs could cloak->fire->cloak then get shot at but take no damage. We thought "well this is silly! you're getting hit by weapons and not taking damage just because you're cloaked". I tested it on a decent level voltoi and killed it easily as a JE and taking no damage. With the exception of reactor power, something I had boat loads of, I was unstoppable. Especially ridiculous was the fact that I was getting shot up but taking no damage because I was cloaked.

So I talked to tienbau and told him about it and we decided on making it so instead of taking 0 damage from the volley that hits you while you're cloaked you take half damage. We decided cloak will not be interrupted. This way, players can still cloak->fire->cloak but will take some damage in the process as they should. It would still be significantly helpful especially against mobs with quick reload timers.

Today I heard in game that cloak was nerfed so I tested it out. Maybe there had been changes from when the players tried it but I was able to kill a level 48 voltoi easily with my JE taking only about 10k damage. I even killed a CL60 using cloak->fire->cloak, admitting it took quite a bit of effort, but is something I would never dream of doing without kiting it in live. Then I killed a couple tengu. Never was my cloak interrupted. Seems to be acting how me and tienbau wanted it to act, with no interruptions, but players will actually take some damage.

[kemperor1]

Ok so here's how it started. When we were testing the mordana raid darkk showed us the bug where JDs could cloak->fire->cloak then get shot at but take no damage. We thought "well this is silly! you're getting hit by weapons and not taking damage just because you're cloaked". I tested it on a decent level voltoi and killed it easily as a JE and taking no damage. With the exception of reactor power, something I had boat loads of, I was unstoppable. Especially ridiculous was the fact that I was getting shot up but taking no damage because I was cloaked.

So I talked to tienbau and told him about it and we decided on making it so instead of taking 0 damage from the volley that hits you while you're cloaked you take half damage. We decided cloak will not be interrupted. This way, players can still cloak->fire->cloak but will take some damage in the process as they should. It would still be significantly helpful especially against mobs with quick reload timers.

Today I heard in game that cloak was nerfed so I tested it out. Maybe there had been changes from when the players tried it but I was able to kill a level 48 voltoi easily with my JE taking only about 10k damage. I even killed a CL60 using cloak->fire->cloak, admitting it took quite a bit of effort, but is something I would never dream of doing without kiting it in live. Then I killed a couple tengu. Never was my cloak interrupted. Seems to be acting how me and tienbau wanted it to act, with no interruptions, but players will actually take some damage.

This sounds like an acceptable fix to me, if that's how it's working (haven't tried yet myself). It's certainly better than other potential stop-gap solutions like making cloak take longer to engage so mobs have a chance to blast you.

edit - and yeah, it was maybe, sorta, kind of an exploit I mean nobody can realistically say they should be able to solo mobs 20 cl's above them without taking any damage. It sure was nice while it lasted, though (remembers taking down Ramon the Polisher with l5 beams).

Edited December 30, 2010 by Aiel

[GenghisBob]

Thanks for the replies. I tried to ask the question as neutrally as possible so I would get answers instead of flames, and it worked!

I really couldn't tell what the changes were supposed to be because of a lag problem. If they work as intended, it sounds like a reasonable fix. Someone may come up with a better fix in time, but a good interim fix none the less.

Now, any idea what's causing the lag, lately? :-)

Edited December 30, 2010 by GenghisBob

[kemperor1]

I went and blasted some voltoi this morning and it works justnas kenu stated. I think it's quite reasonable now, I was able to take 45s, which I can solo without cloaking, without breaking my psi shield (buffed by aotw) , took a 50 reasonably well, pretty difficult, and a 55 ate my cornbread, so I feel like its fairly well balanced, at least for now if not permanently

[C Del[IS]]

I went and blasted some voltoi this morning and it works justnas kenu stated. I think it's quite reasonable now, I was able to take 45s, which I can solo without cloaking, without breaking my psi shield (buffed by aotw) , took a 50 reasonably well, pretty difficult, and a 55 ate my cornbread, so I feel like its fairly well balanced, at least for now if not permanently

You're CL 36 and you can solo 45s easily, and 50s are possible? I'm no expert on higher level stuff, as I only made it to 115-ish in live as a PW, but that seems not good...

[Hexersup[IS]]

You're CL 36 and you can solo 45s easily, and 50s are possible? I'm no expert on higher level stuff, as I only made it to 115-ish in live as a PW, but that seems not good...

CL is not really relevant if you have a much higher overall level, just takes a bit longer if the CL is lower because of lower level weapons.

greets

Hexergirl

[GenghisBob]

But he said he could solo the 45s without cloaking. So if this is not right, it's not cloak that is the problem.

Also, I would hate to see anything changed because of a report by one person. Granted, it may need further study, but many things need a little balancing. By the way, 50% damage may not be the right number, maybe 70%, maybe 40%... :-)

Related question: It was stated above that the Mordana use missiles. If a JE (cause I have one) un-cloaks and fires and missiles are launched, but JE warps away form target area but still within beam range of MOB, does he receive any damage from the missile, and will he if he then cloaks?

[Kyp [LDEV]]

It's all about hull and shield size, and in both cases those were based on overall level. Being that the hull had to be upgraded x number of times and the shield could be upgraded by skill levels until 150. I don't remember the exact spread I'd have to go look at the skill charts.

[Dalgothe]

dont forget the average player may never see the high level toys.

aotw among others.Just because this person has the toys doesn't mean everyone will.

That being said if you can take out mobs over 10 levels higher than yourself?.......solo?.....your a better player than me and gratz,

[kemperor1]

You're CL 36 and you can solo 45s easily, and 50s are possible? I'm no expert on higher level stuff, as I only made it to 115-ish in live as a PW, but that seems not good...

I wouldn't say 45s are exactly easy, I alpha from CC and spam psi shield after that, hitting the martyr's heart a time or two to keep energy up. I haven't tried anything that big without the AotW in, but I'm quite certain I'd die quickly. As for the 50s, we're talking apply psi shield with AotW buff, use cloak/debuff/fire/cloak strategy, and even with 59 resists (ivory ward + prides) they get into my shields pretty good in the time it takes my weak beams to get through them. It's not exactly practical by any means and I wouldn't hunt them on a regular basis. All in all, being balanced in overall level and having (quite) nice gear for my level lets me do this, I wouldn't think the average player with average equipment could take a mob more than 5 or so CL above them (unless much higher overall level).

[CheezeBaal]

for what it's worth, the way i remember it from live (i had 150 jenqs, i just played other chars more frequently),

if you were uncloaked when the mob fired the damage hit full whether or not you were cloaked with a chance to knock you out of cloak.

thats just how i remember it.

jenqs were damnned hard to play in live if you were doing combat solo and hitting above your combat lvl.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

I personally remember my limit as a JE being around CL46. However, I didn't have the best gear by any means, I mostly used the character to mine.

[Blondine]

In live it was really all about tactics as a Jenquai especially for a JE.

With projectiles you could kill even lvl 60s or higher, just it took a long time compared to warriors.

But with beams was kiting also possible, i had a range of 4.6k and could kite all mobs which were not using MLs.

I have to say though, that i had the best gear i could have for a JE.

With my beam setup i also killed lvl 58 Voltois in Antares. Just not without kiting. They hit too hard.

[Orga1]

I know my argument with JD being allowed a maximum of 4 gun slots well never die off in a debate, but I'm still offering that solution.

The way any other speedy class is balanced. If a JD in general can cloak&fire while having a bonus added to the beams doubling it's amount of dmg on all beams. By which depending on uniqueness of the beams, it's self could give ridiculous amount of dmg alone. Then by reducing a jd's weapon slot by 1 weapon, can the speed of the class + double dmg bonus not make up for a 5th slot? I argue that jd's had 4 beams not 5 back in live, but it would only make sense, sense their class specialty is speed and defense not to mention infinite energy.

The only way I'm dropping the idea is if someone has a pic from back in live with 5 weapon slots on a JD.

If you have a pic of a JD from back in live that shows 5 weapon slots then plz show us or me the pic.

Jenquai; 3-4, Terrans; 4-5 and Progens; 5-6 weapon slots. Does that balance structure not make sense? I know this is the emulator not live, but I bring this up because it seems the real topic is "Over Powered Jenquai".

[kemperor1]

I know my argument with JD being allowed a maximum of 4 gun slots well never die off in a debate, but I'm still offering that solution.

The way any other speedy class is balanced. If a JD in general can cloak&fire while having a bonusg added to the beams doubling it's amount of dmg on all beams. By which depending on uniqueness of the beams, it's self could give ridiculous amount of dmg alone. Then by reducing a jd's weapon slot by 1 weapon, can the speed of the class + double dmg bonus not make up for a 5th slot? I argue that jd's had 4 beams not 5 back in live, but it would only make sense, sense their class specialty is speed and defense not to mention infinite energy.

The only way I'm dropping the idea is if someone has a pic from back in live with 5 weapon slots on a JD.

If you have a pic of a JD from back in live that shows 5 weapon slots then plz show us or me the pic.

Jenquai; 3-4, Terrans; 4-5 and Progens; 5-6 weapon slots. Does that balance structure not make sense? I know this is the emulator not live, but I bring this up because it seems the real topic is "Over Powered Jenquai".

Rabble! Rabble rabble!

I think the jd is about like it should be in this regard and if we're OP (not my opinion but I wont pretend I'm unbiased) and need balancing it should be on the defensive end like this cloak nerf. I see the jd as an array of big guns that's hard to hit but drops quick and hard when you hit him.

[Blondine]

I know my argument with JD being allowed a maximum of 4 gun slots well never die off in a debate, but I'm still offering that solution.

The way any other speedy class is balanced. If a JD in general can cloak&fire while having a bonus added to the beams doubling it's amount of dmg on all beams. By which depending on uniqueness of the beams, it's self could give ridiculous amount of dmg alone. Then by reducing a jd's weapon slot by 1 weapon, can the speed of the class + double dmg bonus not make up for a 5th slot? I argue that jd's had 4 beams not 5 back in live, but it would only make sense, sense their class specialty is speed and defense not to mention infinite energy.

The only way I'm dropping the idea is if someone has a pic from back in live with 5 weapon slots on a JD.

If you have a pic of a JD from back in live that shows 5 weapon slots then plz show us or me the pic.

Jenquai; 3-4, Terrans; 4-5 and Progens; 5-6 weapon slots. Does that balance structure not make sense? I know this is the emulator not live, but I bring this up because it seems the real topic is "Over Powered Jenquai".

No, it was 5, and if you don't believe it you forgot the 3rd profession.

Jenquai 3-4-5, Terran 3-4-5, Progen on top of all racees 4-5-6.

ranking is Explorer, Trader, Warrior for all races.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Blondin

[fuulishone]

Rabble! Rabble rabble!

I think the jd is about like it should be in this regard and if we're OP (not my opinion but I wont pretend I'm unbiased) and need balancing it should be on the defensive end like this cloak nerf. I see the jd as an array of big guns that's hard to hit but drops quick and hard when you hit him.

/agree

- JDs are meant to be the glass cannons. High dps, high risk, needs a meat shield to protect them in a group situation. They shouldn't be immune to damage.

- PWs are your high dps, tanks. They're meant to take the focus fire.

- TEs are your "higher than others" dpsers and should be higher than the remaining classes. They're relatively low risk with their range, and in a group situation where inbound damage needs to be spread out, they can help mitigate some by kiting single mobs away from the others (assuming aggro and kiting works properly).

[Terrell [BT]]

In live it was really all about tactics as a Jenquai especially for a JE.

With projectiles you could kill even lvl 60s or higher, just it took a long time compared to warriors. But with beams was kiting also possible, i had a range of 4.6k and could kite all mobs which were not using MLs.

I have to say though, that i had the best gear i could have for a JE.

With my beam setup i also killed lvl 58 Voltois in Antares. Just not without kiting. They hit too hard.

Agreed, was all about tactics & equipment. 7.0K PL range with a HoDo, Shrukens, and a Zet PL, and no DPS penalty for using beyond half range. 40% turbo (with HoDo). The 2 downsides are you must have a HoDo to get the most out of PLs, and you're likely using post 150 dings to level them up.

No, it was 5, and if you don't believe it you forgot the 3rd profession.

Jenquai 3-4-5, Terran 3-4-5, Progen on top of all racees 4-5-6.

ranking is Explorer, Trader, Warrior for all races.

Agreed, but I don't have objection to the Scout breaking that rule with a 4th weap at the expense of it's 6th Device. Just means that JE's keep most of their device advantage, especially as many JE only devices exist, and others will likely be added in time.

[Orga1]

I went and blasted some voltoi this morning and it works justnas kenu stated. I think it's quite reasonable now, I was able to take 45s, which I can solo without cloaking, without breaking my psi shield (buffed by aotw) , took a 50 reasonably well, pretty difficult, and a 55 ate my cornbread, so I feel like its fairly well balanced, at least for now if not permanently

- JDs are meant to be the glass cannons. High dps, high risk, needs a meat shield to protect them in a group situation. They shouldn't be immune to damage.

So Like C Del, Where does this combat "group situation" come into play that you speak of? It seems more players rather solo then not, on a je or jd?

[kemperor1]

So Like C Del, Where does this combat "group situation" come into play that you speak of? It seems more players rather solo then not, on a je or jd?

This may be true in terms of solo play but comparing the three warriors in terms of solo ability, lets say against big mob x (bmx for short)

The jd can still use cloak/fire/cloak, but is no longer totally immune from damage. Bmx does lots of damage but with a hdc device the jd can use c/f/c to take him out before he eats the hull.

The te can still kite (if bmx has shorter range weapons than the te in question ) but can't totally avoid damage a la live and will have to rely on its bigger shield and hull and hdc skill to take out bmx.

The pw has never been immune to damage, nor should he. Big guns, shield sap, big shields and hull, powerful hdc skill let him walk up and kick bmx in the nuts, though taking a beating in the process.

Does this sound about right? Everybody can solo if they want, in a group the pw has to keep agro so the jd doesn't get whacked.

[Orga1]

This may be true in terms of solo play but comparing the three warriors in terms of solo ability, lets say against big mob x (bmx for short)

The jd can still use cloak/fire/cloak, but is no longer totally immune from damage. Bmx does lots of damage but with a hdc device the jd can use c/f/c to take him out before he eats the hull.

Does this sound about right? Everybody can solo if they want, in a group the pw has to keep agro so the jd doesn't get whacked.

I understand all class could solo, but there's no challenge at end game if they can continue to do so...

Now this makes more sense. A jd can solo 1 "bmx" all he wants, but if there was a "bmx a and bmx b" thrown in the situation. Then progen C would have to shield jd from "bmx a and b" because jd can't solo while holding multi argo. So jd calls for progen C to help and thus they start a group and without grouping there is no raids, without raids, content maybe pushed towards soloing issues more then grouping. This is the only problem I see.

How often does 2 mobs group up together and challenge that jd to not solo? Other then in the FB or near boss spawns. Back in Live, a PW couldn't touch a tengu in cooper at any nav without 2-3 of them on his tail, regardless of the supply spawn to player masses ratio. I recall not being able to solo anything passed cl 50 without needing a group or guild to help me back in live.

Sry if I'm emphasizing too much on grouping, but hearing things like soloing, needs to be discussed.

[kemperor1]

Well said. Some things should absolutely require a group morso than now. One on one, its all good that the warriors can solo very well but grouping is a lot of fun And a big part of the game. Having said that, there should be plenty to do solo as well. I for one usually play for no more than an hour in a sitting and don't get into a group as often as I'd like. But yes, group play should be encouraged and making more things that need a group is one way to do that. Anyway grouping is another discussion in itself and deserves its own topic.