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Loot stealing (sort of) Devs please read


Jamosite

  

17 members have voted

  1. 1. Should loot have a higher timer.

    • No. let it be a free for all no matter what.
      6
    • Yes. give me a chance to loot my own kills.
      11


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let me make it short but try to include everything. I was out with a small but strong group, we were killing mobs that spawn pretty well, it was

pure fun to work together and kill , at certain points the spawn would slow and when the group members got a chance to loot the corpses were

being looted by more then one cloaked Jenquai.

I don't usually get to play in the evening like tonight so I was shocked not having this experience before. it apparently happens most every day

around this time. I talked to two of the 3 people who were looting our kills. one responded and was nice , decided to move on.

the other explained that they are free to do this, because of the timer. this got me to thinking of raids in the past were the timer was high.

the timer is short in this game and i want to know if we can raise the time limit.

It isn't like you can tell the mobs to stop attacking so you can loot and then resume.

I do not see why anyone would disagree with this, i find it something that most people would want and only the few who level themselves by

bottom feeding off of other peoples kills would not want done.

I see this as a exploit of the game mechanics. so to fix this I implore you to raise the loot timer.

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I think it's a good thing to have a loot timer that's long enough for the people doing the killing to have a good chance at looting, particularily when there are other mobs around for Terran & Progen who have to fight the other mobs off so they can loot safely. I don't think that Jenquai should have the current looting restrictions w/r/t cloaking but I also think that looting someone else's kills, without permission, should be against the rules (ninja-looting). Now if there's an unlooted corpse and there aren't any other players nearby to identify as the killers of said mob, then it becomes a grey area, w/r/t whether or not the mob has been abandoned. Say if the corpse of a dead regular mob would disappear on it's on after 10 minutes, then perhaps 9 of it should be loot restricted, unless the person with looting rights releases said rights.

I think that the timer should last most of the time that the corpse lasts, and that the timers for the bosses, should be significantly longer than non-boss mobs. Particularily the bosses in raids, since there may be looting rights for raid members to sort out. (raids that decide to lotto loot rather than auction it) The Credit Kill command, will also be needed if it's not already implemented (haven't raided in emulator mostly played solo or small groups)

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so how about we x5 the timers for anything that's got a rare item in and add adjustable loot rights? Would that sort everything out?

Not sure how long to put the timers or increase them, but I wouldn't limit the extended timers to rare loot things. Even Junk loot has it's value, in that it can be vendored for credits and Trade XP. Adjustable loot rights would be a great thing.

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current timers seem to be in the 150 second range for open loot access, and two to three times that for corpse decay. For most areas of the game I'd say that's just fine, but for specific high spawn rate, or high value areas, making it more like 600 seconds for open loot access and 900-1200 for corpse decay would work fairly well, imho.

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current timers seem to be in the 150 second range for open loot access, and two to three times that for corpse decay. For most areas of the game I'd say that's just fine, but for specific high spawn rate, or high value areas, making it more like 600 seconds for open loot access and 900-1200 for corpse decay would work fairly well, imho.

hiya tien, i have noticed the same in many parts of the game and i was just keeping mum abt this so that ppl get to enjoy what they do but when it gets to hi-value loot then it really pisses the group that has actually killed the mob. the other day i saw another group beside us killing the fishie bosses...they were very decent and never ninja'd our kills and we returned favour by going a bit far away...when there are two civilised groups then there is no problem as such with the timer....but when there are ppl who are there specifically for ninja'íng then your X5 timer would help a lot....with all the uber sectors still closed i think it would be great if you as a dev represent with the other developers to arrive at a consensus in this!!

great going tien...

UmaXX

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I'd be fine with an increased loot time timer, but keep in mind the corpse despawn time will have to be greater than the time until everyone can loot. If this ends up making the despawn timer too long it could cause server problems or annoying amounts of corpses for people who don't loot (faction farmers and others).

changes sound like they are needed, but changes must be done very carefully.

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couldn't you fix that by only allowing so many corpses spawn in the same area at a time? Such as if there are only a few corps then they all have a 10 minute timer. If once a certain number of corpses appear, say like 15 or 20, then the older ones start to insta pop as new ones are created. Boss corpses are excluded from this list and are on a 30 minute timer.

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That was me Ninja Looting btw.

Here's the problem. Your group sat yourself right in the spawn point of the fishes. You were taking on 7-10 fishes at a time and your loots were not only opening the timer, but also exceeding the timer and blowing up infront of me and disappearing. I sat and watched for 10 minutes before I took any loot off anyone.

So my only consideration in this conversation is that you didn't have a problem with your loot exploding into oblivion until you saw someone else looting it. After we had the conversation about how I wasn't exploiting and the timer is there for a reson, (to give you an opportunity to loot)and you were going to report me for greiving you actually took the time to loot your own stuff. Funny enough you left all the unstackable items floating in the vastnest that is the fishbowl.

The problem is this as I see it, you can either hog all the fishes and rack up the combat levels, which is what it appeared you were doing, or you can kill them in a more gingerly pace and collect all your loot. Like I said, the loot seemed to be the least of your concern until you saw someone else looting it. You were just letting the loot explode before.

It appears you would like your cake and to eat it too.

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Increasing the corpse timer from 2.5 mins to 5 mins seems excessive, and having corpses lying around for 10 mins is just going to clutter up the sector, regardless of the sector you're in. Imagine folks that are farming high respawn chavez that never touch or loot the corpses? Those areas could very quickly become swamped with corpses. Not the least of which, this is addressing a very specific single event and not all around that useful.

The other condition that occurs is that the group can open and inspect the corpse, but then that person has to release the corpse so that a group mate can loot something from it. In that window of time, ninja looting can occur, and tweaking spawn timers will do nothing to fix that.

I prefer moderation when tweaking timers, but give group leaders more tools to self-manage.

- Set the default corpse release timer to 3 mins.

- Set the default despawn timer to 6 mins.

This should give a little more leeway to folks that are combating mobs at or close to their own level and need a little extra time with the new faster respawn times.

- Provide a slash command so groups can extend their own release timers to be equal to the despawn timer, thus 6 min releases. If a group can't get to a corpse within 6 mins of the kill, then no one gets the loot. Pretty simple.

This will help with folks that are stuck in "engine offline" mode and need to wait it out in order to get closer to the corpse to loot it.

- Once a corpse has been inspected, the default behavior is to release loot rights once you close/de-target the corpse. Groups need a way to change this default behavior so that "swapping" the corpse to a groupmate or assigned person doesn't allow ninja'ing to occur.

This should allow for the condition when a group doesn't care about folks looting their corpses, as well as allow for a group to lock the corpses completely without fear of ninja'ing.

- Lastly (and this was in Live IIRC) corpses of named bosses had much longer release and despawn timers, so these could justifiably be set to something like 6 mins release, 15 mins decay.

And this should allow for folks to kill a boss, and clear the nearby area of mobs in order to get to the corpse.

Just my two cents on this, thanks for reading.

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Same as live.

Kill what you can afford to loot, anything you don't loot in the specified standard time period then is flotsam or roadkill and is open to any scavanger to search.

Kill more and expect lurking opportunistic Jenquai (cowards ** Progen Terminology) to not do the honorable thing and stand still and wait for the enemy to fall by your shield nova or projectiles in a 3-4km radius easy to find with scan and can be searched. No! The inferior genetic strains in this galaxy choose to either hide and backstab or fire missiles at a range where they will not suffer any scratch to their overpriced vessels.

Long live The Progen Republic.

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current timers seem to be in the 150 second range for open loot access, and two to three times that for corpse decay. For most areas of the game I'd say that's just fine, but for specific high spawn rate, or high value areas, making it more like 600 seconds for open loot access and 900-1200 for corpse decay would work fairly well, imho.

I can remember from live just that the timers for loot from nomal mobs were in about ~3 mins.

And 3 mins should be enough to get the loot. Even in a group where are more kills in a short time, one of the group can go for loot. The corpse would then go in about 5 mins.

So 3 mins for the group that killed the mob and 2 mins open loot.

And if that should really not be enough, 5 mins for restricted and 2 mins open should do the trick

i guess.

Combined with the lootrights working, should all be fine with.

Don't argue now if you are alone it doesn't work. :) We are talking here about high level areas,

where it's designed for groups mostly. :)....or Ninjas...(Jenquais :P)

Boss loot timer was always 30 mins as i can remember and they had never an open timer if the corpse wasn't released to everyone.

Thats how i can remember it and it was working fine.

Just for something to work with.

greets

Hexergirl

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No need to change any programming, I was just advised by SoldierTS[GM] that loot stealing is a direct violation of the TOS. Regardless if they are letting the loot dissolve or not, you cannot take loot from someone else's kill, period.

Thanks for the clarification.

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No need to change any programming, I was just advised by SoldierTS[GM] that loot stealing is a direct violation of the TOS. Regardless if they are letting the loot dissolve or not, you cannot take loot from someone else's kill, period.

Thanks for the clarification.

Loot stealing, kill stealing, all these concepts may be in violation of the TOS... If they were performed in a manner that took advantage of a bug (i.e. an exploit). When such behavior occurs in complete and total compliance of the currently programmed game mechanics and are NOT designated a bug or an exploit, you can't really say it's a TOS violation no matter how folks may feel about it.

People really need to be careful about labeling something a TOS violation, versus behavior that they don't personally like or agree with. It's like the cherry picking thread. Too many people are focused on punishing behavior THEY personally disagree with, rather than looking at the mechanics that allow the behavior.

If a corpse is openly lootable by anyone, regardless of who killed it, it's fair game. Regardless of how people may feel about the action of taking loot from it when you know you didn't kill it, it's still fair game and NOT a TOS violation as it's not loot stealing. There's just no such thing.

Having said that, discussions about how/when a corpse should become fair game do make sense and should be had as it only goes to improve the game experience for everyone. You provide the players the tools to self-manage and move on.

Slapping disagreeable behavior with a TOS violation doesn't end up helping anyone other than temporarily inciting drama and making the invoker of the violation feel better for that moment. I think folks would do well to consider what they really want out of the game's mechanics and how it may affect their long term gaming experience before jumping to the conclusion that all (potentially) disagreeable behavior should be prevented.

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Agree with Fuulish, the game is designed so that you have a maximum amount of time to loot a corpse (if you have not released looting restrictions), if you are unable to do that, the corpse is open to anyone. That is not a TOS, that is a fact of the game (just as it was in live). I do also agree however, that in the case of the FB, if you see a group attacking a bunch of mobs and there is a ton of corpse's lying around, at least ask a member of the group first before you come in and start looting. Not a TOS, just a courtesy.

Even better, if it is not a full group ask for an invite, maybe you can pick up some CL's while you are at it. I was involved in a group the other day that had a Terran and Jenquai in the group that had no business being in the FB, but were there to pick up some CL's from the combat and TL's from trading the loot as long as they weren't being targeted, they did just fine.

Edited by Grendwal
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So the way I understand it, if a corpse is assigned to me and I inspect it, and then deselect, all loot on it is now free for all, right?

I think this could be changed such that if you are in a group, any group member can loot it within the remaining restriction time, and then free for all after until it explodes. If you are not in a group, it would remain unchanged. There should also be a way to set group free for all where non group members are still restricted for the duration of the set time, but any group member could loot it without the assigned looter necessarily having to inspect it first.

I like the idea of increased restiction/despawn times, but maybe just give the group leader an option to increase restriction/despawn time (a check box that adds 5 minutes or something) would be helpful, but you would keep off if you are just farming faction.

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Same as live.

Kill what you can afford to loot, anything you don't loot in the specified standard time period then is flotsam or roadkill and is open to any scavanger to search.

Kill more and expect lurking opportunistic Jenquai (cowards ** Progen Terminology) to not do the honorable thing and stand still and wait for the enemy to fall by your shield nova or projectiles in a 3-4km radius easy to find with scan and can be searched. No! The inferior genetic strains in this galaxy choose to either hide and backstab or fire missiles at a range where they will not suffer any scratch to their overpriced vessels.

Long live The Progen Republic.

Hesitation is weakness!

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That was me Ninja Looting btw.

Here's the problem. Your group sat yourself right in the spawn point of the fishes. You were taking on 7-10 fishes at a time and your loots were not only opening the timer, but also exceeding the timer and blowing up infront of me and disappearing. I sat and watched for 10 minutes before I took any loot off anyone.

So my only consideration in this conversation is that you didn't have a problem with your loot exploding into oblivion until you saw someone else looting it. After we had the conversation about how I wasn't exploiting and the timer is there for a reson, (to give you an opportunity to loot)and you were going to report me for greiving you actually took the time to loot your own stuff. Funny enough you left all the unstackable items floating in the vastnest that is the fishbowl.

The problem is this as I see it, you can either hog all the fishes and rack up the combat levels, which is what it appeared you were doing, or you can kill them in a more gingerly pace and collect all your loot. Like I said, the loot seemed to be the least of your concern until you saw someone else looting it. You were just letting the loot explode before.

It appears you would like your cake and to eat it too.

Since i was not going to call you out but you decided to bring it out there that is fine, my take is we were doing the work and you were getting the

rewards. as you may or may not know the bowl has been tweaked were its a full epic group event, so to not have the entire party die, all had to

work together to fight. I would like the timer to be increased to give us ( our group ) a chance to loot our own kills.

So I ask the Devs to increase the timer at least slightly on normal mobs and give it a bigger timer on epic / Boss mobs.

On a side note, the sad part is we had one spot open and we don't mind others not in our guild joining but it was

one of these situations were.

some folks, (not just the person quoted above ) was hiding below us waiting for our kill timers to be removed to

loot. ( i will not name them because I respect the folks that stoped after asking.)

also, if some one wants to level up by not doing any real work, i do not understand why they are playing.

please enlighten me to this fact.

Or you can add a pause button? /pause, and the mobs would not attack for 30 seconds (kidding)

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On a side note, the sad part is we had one spot open and we don't mind others not in our guild joining but it was one of these situations were

some one (not just the person quoted above ) was hiding below us waiting for our kill timers to be removed to loot.

also, if some one wants to level up by not doing any real work, i guess that is fine.

I believe in the pay-it-forward method. I don't mind building stuff for other people or giving away extra proto's that my JE has mined for free, or letting someone leech xp off my kills as long as they ask first and are willing to do the same for someone else when they "grow up".

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Kind of a non-issue at this point don't you think? It's a violation of the TOS to take loot that you didn't kill, I understand the rules crystal clear now.

Only a non-issue if you agree. I however do not. I'm sure there's plenty of folks that would agree, this makes no sense being in there in the first place.

The line in the TOS is meant to handle ninja-looting, which in and of itself is kind of silly. The ability to ninja-loot is completely dependent on whether or not the game mechanics allow it. And enforcing this kind of a "good citizens behavior only" type of game sets a bad precedent.

Taken to an extreme, then folks will start arguing that kill stealing is a TOS violation, when such an act cannot happen under game mechanics. There is no such thing as kill stealing regardless of what people may think. The mechanics are currently most dps wins the loot rights.

I encourage folks to think very carefully about what they're asking for when speaking about TOS violations and such.

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Only a non-issue if you agree. I however do not. I'm sure there's plenty of folks that would agree, this is a ridiculous statement in the TOS and I'm really saddened to see a GM arbitrarily quoting TOS over something that makes no sense being in there in the first place.

The line in the TOS is meant to handle ninja-looting, which in and of itself is kind of silly. The ability to ninja-loot is completely dependent on whether or not the game mechanics allow it. And enforcing this kind of a "good citizens behavior only" type of game sets a bad precedent.

Taken to an extreme, then folks will start arguing that kill stealing is a TOS violation, when such an act cannot happen under game mechanics. There is no such thing as kill stealing regardless of what people may think. The mechanics are currently most dps wins the loot rights.

I encourage folks to think very carefully about what they're asking for when speaking about TOS violations and such.

Agree 100%.

For those that are curious, I believe this is the statement in question - taken from the Net 7 Entertainment Code of Conduct:

12. Players may not "poach" or "ninja-loot".

The very fact that the terms themselves are in quotes, to me, means that they are begging for a definition. As it is it's left to the players to determine, via guessing, what exactly constitutes poaching or ninja-looting.

If, as Psio indicates he was told by SoldierTS, ANY looting of a mob corpse that was killed by someone else - after the timer expires - qualifies then one is left to ask . . . why the heck is there even a timer? Just lock the corpse/loot to the party that killed it. Period - no more drama.

It's ridiculous to have the system set up in the current manner - with different timers for exclusive looting rights vs corpse expiration - if it sets someone up for a TOS violation.

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Only a non-issue if you agree. I however do not. I'm sure there's plenty of folks that would agree, this is a ridiculous statement in the TOS and I'm really saddened to see a GM arbitrarily quoting TOS over something that makes no sense being in there in the first place.

The line in the TOS is meant to handle ninja-looting, which in and of itself is kind of silly. The ability to ninja-loot is completely dependent on whether or not the game mechanics allow it. And enforcing this kind of a "good citizens behavior only" type of game sets a bad precedent.

I agree with you entirely that it is inappropriate for this restriction to be in the ToS. This is equivalent to saying that it is forbidden to take more than four jobs at once, despite how many the server will let you have, for instance. The server is designed in such a way that it allows you to "ninja-loot", and, whether that was intended or not, it is ridiculous to require players to abstain from a practice allowed by the game system.

That said, it is the purpose of the GMs to enforce the Terms of Service, so it is unfair to criticize Soldier for quoting it in order to clarify the issue. For good reason, GMs do not make up the ToS as they go. The ToS may be stupid, but Soldier did the right thing.

In hopes that I can get voted down again, Hesistation is still weakness!

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I agree with you entirely that it is inappropriate for this restriction to be in the ToS. This is equivalent to saying that it is forbidden to take more than four jobs at once, despite how many the server will let you have, for instance. The server is designed in such a way that it allows you to "ninja-loot", and, whether that was intended or not, it is ridiculous to require players to abstain from a practice allowed by the game system.

That said, it is the purpose of the GMs to enforce the Terms of Service, so it is unfair to criticize Soldier for quoting it in order to clarify the issue. For good reason, GMs do not make up the ToS as they go. The ToS may be stupid, but Soldier did the right thing.

Fair enough, I retract my comment on that one.

In hopes that I can get voted down again, Hesistation is still weakness!

Sorry no can do... MUST...PUSH...UP...VOTE...

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I agree with you entirely that it is inappropriate for this restriction to be in the ToS. This is equivalent to saying that it is forbidden to take more than four jobs at once, despite how many the server will let you have, for instance. The server is designed in such a way that it allows you to "ninja-loot", and, whether that was intended or not, it is ridiculous to require players to abstain from a practice allowed by the game system.

That said, it is the purpose of the GMs to enforce the Terms of Service, so it is unfair to criticize Soldier for quoting it in order to clarify the issue. For good reason, GMs do not make up the ToS as they go. The ToS may be stupid, but Soldier did the right thing.

In hopes that I can get voted down again, Hesistation is still weakness!

I have to weigh in here and say just because the system allows something does not always mean it is AOK! If that were the case I want the exploit bugs I reported put back in the system let me do it and I want to exploit them again. I think while we are testing all things should be reported: looting someone else’s kills is almost as bad as kill stealing imo.

Edited by Mimir
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