Cherry Picking

[Yuritau]

Alright, seems like every night we end up having some talk on market/general about cherry picking. And every time it happens, you get the same two arguments:

1. "Ban cherry pickers!" (honestly, this does more to encourage cherry picking than anything else)

2. "Who cares?" or "What's the big deal?"

So I wanted to post and tell y'all how to end this annoying debate.

There's only two ways I can see o EVER stop cherry picking:

1. Start banning all cherry pickers.

-It would probably work, but that kind of heavy handed behavior would cause a reduction in playerbase. Both from the bans themselves, and from a loss of confidence in the Net-7 team.

2. Reduce the variation within individual ore fields.

-At present, it seems to me that a given ore field has an average tech level (eg: 6), and the roids that can spawn within that field have a ±1 variation around that number (tech lvl 5-7 in an L6 ore field), and on top of that, within each roid there is a variation of up to one level below the tech of the roid. So in a L6 ore field, you can get ores ranging from level 4 to level 7. Add in that each level of ore is likely to have anywhere from 2-4 different specific ores, and it's easily possible to come away with 16 different stacks from a SINGLE ore field. Also, there is a very large difference between mining L4 ores and mining L7 ores. Generally speaking a player that wants L7 ores doesn't care at all about L4/5, and a player that's actively mining L4 ores has no chance at all to pull even a single L7. This situation CREATES the cherry picking problem.

Suggestions:

-reduce the variation of roid level. A L6 field should only ever have L5 and L6 rocks.

-reduce the variation at each ore level in a given field. 1-3 ores of each level is MORE than enough variation, and would create more variation from field to field. You might have to explore around a little more to find the specific ores you're after.

Finally.. about hulks.. less debris please? Seriously.. I'd be more than happy to see overall LESS hulks if it would mean I don't have to mine 100+ damn debris and 50+ wreckage slag from every hulk field I visit. (for the record, and other miners can back me up here, I did NOT exaggerate those debris/slag numbers)

[Lot]

Alright, seems like every night we end up having some talk on market/general about cherry picking. And every time it happens, you get the same two arguments:

1. "Ban cherry pickers!" (honestly, this does more to encourage cherry picking than anything else)

2. "Who cares?" or "What's the big deal?"

So I wanted to post and tell y'all how to end this annoying debate.

There's only two ways I can see o EVER stop cherry picking:

1. Start banning all cherry pickers.

-It would probably work, but that kind of heavy handed behavior would cause a reduction in playerbase. Both from the bans themselves, and from a loss of confidence in the Net-7 team.

I often wonder why players allow themselves to become upset over cherry-picking. It's a fact of game play and it happened in live and in the emulator it is no different. Return for the respawn and go for it.

Probably most of these type of cherry-picking complaints come from hulk fields.

Personally, I don't think there should be hulk fields (except the one in Xipe Totec north of station) and they should be integrated into regular fields just like live. Hulk fields being on a slow timer makes them into a competitive resource - first one there gets the prototype item(s). Players who didn't get there first cry "cherry picker".

[Tukarjabi]

isn't there already a 20 pg thread about this subject already?? how much more can we beat this horse until there is no more of the horse left?

Tuk

[garblesoup]

isn't there already a 20 pg thread about this subject already?? how much more can we beat this horse until there is no more of the horse left?

Tuk

Agreed.

[Mimir[IS]]

Agreed

[seekeronos]

I'd like to highlight the issue with HULK cherry picking.

Short solution:

Reduce the hulk field respawn timers to be equal to that of the other asteroid fields.

As currently implemented (as a result of the [possibly former] ore dev getting a bit frosted over cherry pickers), hulks have a respawn time that varies from several hours to more than 24 hours.

And as the OP pointed out, since prototype gear has been thinned out, and the L1/L2 slag/debris added to the hulk loot tables as a broad spectrum result)...

...I can come away from hulking out Fenris with two or three stacks of the L1/L2 debris, a some level-appropriate junk (L6-L9 non-mappable ship parts and Mah Jong tiles) and if I am REALLLLLLY lucky, 10-12 half eaten space suits from any of the three playable races for faction trade.

Fortunately, that is because most people clean out the Fenris hulk spawns (which are at the shorter end of the hulk respawn cycle).

Now Shephard and Grissom Planet are real stinkers, since certain known miner alts are recently only brought online exactly at server restart, who cherry pick the suits out of these very long-respawn hulk fields.

I kid you not: After a server restart, I raced my fast-pulling TS from F7 to Redemption Point in Shephard, just in time to see one of those miner alts log out...and about 30 or so hulks with only debris and the occasional landing strut or shield attenuator (junk loot) or Mah Jong tile.

Dutifully, I'll clean up the junk loot (it is explore/trade exp and I had made the haul out there anyway)in order to kick off the respawn timer in hopes that a fresh hulk field might be waiting for me in about 23:30 hours or so.

I get that the suits are supposed to be rare and valuable (another aspect of the faction grind)... but the long respawn + rarity + inconsiderate jerks cherry picking = less motivation to want to bother harvesting suits (or whatever other goodies that might someday be seeded into hulks).

[Terrell [BT]]

we could also integrate hulks into the regular asteroid fields, for most hulks. I don't think we should entirely get rid of hulk fields, but they probably do need to be moved from time to time. One thing that may help, at least for hulks of L4 or higher, is no L2 things in hulks over L3. Let junk loot in hulks be the same level as the hulk, plus or minus 1 level. The hulks also should continue to have space suits, prototype equipment, and some other things that explorers might want to analyze, use, or sell, level apropriate of course.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Just thought I'd add: Option 3, we completely and totally randomize what appears in each belt. Then cherry pickers won't know where to go to pick their cherries, now will they?

[fuulishone]

Just thought I'd add: Option 3, we completely and totally randomize what appears in each belt. Then cherry pickers won't know where to go to pick their cherries, now will they?

The whole discussion of cherry picking and how it's just impacts one's gameplay in such a terrible manner is all a bit melodramatic and overplayed. To be perfectly honestly, what does cherry picking really do that affects one's gameplay? Aside from game mechanics that get borked (which are all fixable), I would submit that cherry picking doesn't actually affect anyone at all (assuming the perceived game mechanics issues are resolved).

The only thing that I can tell that's affected is that cherry picked roids don't despawn. But is this truly how it's supposed to work? Way back when, there seemed to be some discussion that fields (and thus roids) that were interacted with at all would start a timer that would respawn the entire field. Now if that was working, then it would be highly likely that picked fields would simply come back at some point in time, all fresh and new. If that's not happening, then it's either a bug which a dev needs to look at, or a change in field behavior. Either way, you need a dev to make a statement about it.

On the topic of field clears... Again, it shouldn't matter to anyone. Granted one may say, the miner that fully clears the field doesn't get the full credit of the field clear, but again I submit that it's hearsay. The clear "credit" doesn't seem to come from the act of pulling an ore out of a roid, but from whomever finishes the roid. This should be easy to test. Find a small field, have two miners clear it. One miner only pulls one ore from a multi-roid, and never touches single ore roids. The miner is solely responsible for clearing the roid. Then see who gets the clear bonus and what they get. If both get it, seems reasonable then this shouldn't work this way. If only the "clearer" gets it, then that's behaving in a positive manner for well-behaved miners.

On the topic of pickers getting the best stuff out of fields. This one's touchy, but I'm going to have to say, that's tough and is the nature of playing MMO games. No one is entitled to getting the best stuff, or even having access to it 100% of the time. EnB was built in a manner that actually encouraged competition in this area. It was all about whoever got there first gets the goods. If you want to take the time to clear a field, then you miss out on the opportunity to check other fields. It's that simple. If you choose to fly around and cherry pick, then you may hit more fields overall, but then again, maybe not as others are racing to them at the same time as well. It's all a gamble.

All I'm really saying is, folks need to stop complaining and venting about cherry picking and perhaps come up with a better game mechanic to address that makes the whole process more enjoyable and rewarding for everyone, while keeping the competitive nature of the game alive.

[Yuritau]

Just thought I'd add: Option 3, we completely and totally randomize what appears in each belt. Then cherry pickers won't know where to go to pick their cherries, now will they?

If you did that with LESS VARIETY per field, I'd be completely fine with it. The biggest reason we even HAVE cherry picking is because there's such a large variety of ores per field.

[garblesoup]

If you did that with LESS VARIETY per field, I'd be completely fine with it. The biggest reason we even HAVE cherry picking is because there's such a large variety of ores per field.

I don't believe that's the BIGGEST reason . . .

[Yuritau]

I don't believe that's the BIGGEST reason . . .

I do. The only exception being high level hulk fields.

[Mykael]

What could be done to enhance the game so that "cherry picking" is looked on as a positive thing and everyone has the same opportunity to be selective in their choices without reducing the opportunity of other players to have the same selection?

Maintain the same spawn rates as the devs feel are necessary for each asteroid, crystal, or hulk BUT create an "internal rotation" of the items so that they change on a much more frequent basis.

In this way if a player looks at an asteroid or hulk and does not like what he sees he can leave it and go on to the next asteroid or hulk. The next player who inspects the asteroid or hulk will find something totally different and EVENTUALLY that asteroid or hulk WILL have something that a player will mine.

In this way, selectivity of mining is up to the miner and in no way affects any other miner.

In a Non-game situation, selectivity would be a normal competitive process but in a game environment the only way for selectivity to be a productive game component would be if it was available to all.

Anyway, this scenario would eleiminate any "cherry-picking" concerns.

[Bovyne]

I can think of a few ways to stop this,

If you loot a roid/hulk you then loot it all (automatically, but maybe with a warning if it will drain you reactor so you can choose)

Make resources unspace-able, but trade-able and sell-able.

Give miners slightly better cargo holds for resources. (not sure how but maybe extra slots that can only hold resources?)

Or

as soon a roid/hulk has one item removes sets timer to destroy roid/hulk (it becomes unstable)self destruction happening in maybe 5 to 10 mins?

Also could have field just de-spawn and re-spawn completely randomly over 6-12 hour period or whatever re-spawn time is good. which would least allow other a chance that it might be a fresh field.

I also like the idea of slightly less randomness in the asteroids, when your looking for sand say, you can clear fields and have alot of other stuff other than sand, I would suggest maybe 3 different types per type of void per level, in a field.

Or each roid type has main resource say copper, with rare silver, main resource iron with rare gold etc, maybe odd gems etc might need to redo resources need for items though.

Hulks surely if they are higher level they are going to be made of higher level material? So higher level wreckage? or thinking of it another way basic hulks might be iron based, while medium are aluminium based and best are titanium? or 1-3 hulks level 2 wreckage, 4-6 level 5 wreckage and 7-9 level 8 wreckage for example? plus the bonus bits like suits, items and other parts suitable for the level. With similar idea as above for fields, and mining.

Well some my thoughts anyway, whether they can be done is also unknown to me.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Bovyne

[graveyard]

Wild Idea for fixing cheery Picking Make each roid contents must be mined in Tech lvl order or else Roid pops

Edited December 7, 2010 by graveyard

[capybara]

Just thought I'd add: Option 3, we completely and totally randomize what appears in each belt. Then cherry pickers won't know where to go to pick their cherries, now will they?

A little randomization is aways good..

Guess my memory is off, or everyone elses is, but i could swear in live that once an ore was "opened" that it would fairly shortly thereafter go "poof" and then the respawn timer would kick in, and it would respawn... You could then return to a field in 20 or 30 minutes at it would be good as new, provided you had opened every ore.

So the question is: Why can't this be done with the hulks too... Once you crack it open with your mining icon, it effectively ends its life after say 5 or 10 minutes or so, in much the same way a mob courpe does (i forget how long it took in live) then it goes on the timer for respawn.. ?

There are three or four main reasons people cherry pick... sometimes it comes down to cargo space - though i personally prefer to space stuff when it comes to the hulks, so they will respawn after they are cleaned out... Second is because its in a danger zone, an example of which would be GOBB and Controller area, where decloaking and recloaking can mean life and death. And of course people who are trying to quickly gather particular items, or are just plain greedy...

So there are some legitimate reasons, and some not so legitimate... You can't lump everyone together...

Anyway, if the hulks explode (or pop) once you crack em, then that pretty much takes care of the main issue with cherry picking... as it comes down to first find first serve.... then its back on the random timer for someone else to find.

Cheers,

[wootage]

Been playing a miner for a bit lately and have felt some effects from this, mainly from clearing hulk fields with portions of the field missing and no proto items. I've done enough to know the size of some fields and what the general catch of proto stuff from them can be (from catching them right after restarts or off prime hours)

While learning to prospect, I noticed something that I couldn't explain, but that I think is the the #1 enabler of cherrypicking, and that is miners can see the contents of any roid or hulk from any scan distance. When I first discovered it, this made me go... huh?? Prospectors use the prospect ability to open asteroids and extract their contents. Where does the magic X-ray vision come from?

I'm going to suggest that taking that away would go a long ways towards eliminating the problem while causing legit miners no grief at all. Miners out to mine legitimately start at one end of the field and go until they get a field clear bonus. So taking away the magic X-ray vision thing does not reduce the ability to prospect for anyone.

But having to prospect first to see what's in the roid or hulk means you're spending almost the same amount of time and effort cherry-picking it as you are just mining it out. So it makes taking the explore experience from finishing the rock an attractive option compared to cherry-picking and moving on.

W

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

seriously, whats cherry picking?

i can only think of "love making" stuff here heheh

[lpalgarvio[IS]]

nm, someone explained to me in the game.

the fields need roid respawn and poproids, with mobs aggroing when you leave roids behind.

btw, hulks in carpenter, around lagrange 4, have way too many proto items.

in half an hour or less i picked up just about every variant (multiples of them) of prototype reactors, shields, engines, missiles, projectiles and beams, lvl2-4.

its too damn easy.

Edited February 16, 2011 by LPCA

[Orga1]

If you did that with LESS VARIETY per field, I'd be completely fine with it. The biggest reason we even HAVE cherry picking is because there's such a large variety of ores per field.

No you needed to double the amount of roids to supply the demand of miners, which sense the log-in cap is now at 500, make sense to me.

I'm not one to cherry pick but I wouldn't be happy to know that the cherry picky is a macro or bot. That means the cherry pickery is spending less effort to discovery the ore in the fields and mock everyone who is trying to do it legitimately. I've heard they depend on sight to see what is in the roids and to possible take away the x-ray can stop the bots from memorizes the areas.

Along with making them random, which in Live I thought they were all random spawns.

I like the idea of having a small environmental field around all the hulks and have them drain your reactor, because like damaged parts leaves toxic radiation emanating out into space ect..

That is a good reason to need and use your environmental shields skill. Sense other then the suns in other system "VT,Venus,GO" barely dmg your ship when you get to close which rarely anyone does anymore. This would pose a greater challenge to any hulk problems. I don't see anything wrong with the idea.

When 2 legit miners fight over an ore field it's somewhat intense, I enjoy that glory if you mine more then your opposing miner. I have done it many times before hehe, but i agree if one person cherry picks and then other clears the field, then whoever clears the field gets all the credit!

If maybe 50% was mined by both miners then both could get the credit. Only because both showed through a sum,if or value scale that more then 1 roid was mined from a particular field, but thats gonna take some math and a new system for keeping count on such things. Just a thought...

[Tyran]

Just going to put this out in the open...

It is gorgeous to cherry pick knowing it frustrates people. Basically it is like purposely not flushing the toilet. The next person to use that toilet, or perhaps the cleaner (the other miner) will not like what they see. While they may be able to bear the odour or the artwork to some extent, their tiny brains will generally associate an unpleasant experience with that place, be it a toilet or a roid field.

That unpleasant experience can make a roid field unattractive for the person if it happens too often, so they go elsewhere.

The devs can lessen the cherry picking easily by changing the roid fields so those that do it purely for profit won't need to anymore.

But then there are those men who just want to watch the world burn

[Cadaverdog]

I would like to propose a simple solution to the problem of cherry picking. It would involve placing the lowest value item in the top spot of the box with higher values below. The person mining the roid/hulk would be limited to accessing only the top field of the box. Consequently the miner would be required to remove the lowest items first before accessing the higher value ones. This would eliminate the current epidemic of opening hulks and finding only debri.

 

It should be a simple change to hulks as all the ones  that I have seen have the debri in the top spot and the valuable items below. You would be forced to clear the hulk to get to the valuable item.

 

Tree/Cad

[Terrell [BT]]

Things that are cherry picked should despawn after a while.  Most hulks won't have much more than debris, slag, or other "junk" loot. Some of the "junk" you find in hulks can be turned in for faction, various locations depending on what you find.  The L1 debris can make you some pretty good credits, as it comes in pretty high quantities, that increase with the hulk's level.   You won't get any Trade XP for the slag after a certain TL, but it's worth your time to mine & vendor it.

[Mattsacre]

And still people call it the "problem with cherry picking", *sigh*. It's not a problem! It's W.orking A.s I.ntended.

 

When you gain to much weight you either go on a diet or increase your activity, gaining weight was a "problem" but it was a natural consequence from a action.

When you drink to much booze for too long your liver gets pickled, you want to avoid this "problem"? Decrease your consumption or live (or don't) with the consequences.

 

The "problem" with cherry picking is a natural consequence of mining activity, it don't need adjusting, you may find it annoying true...I find people smacking their lips around a wad of gum while they attempt to communicate with me annoying, I chalk it into the "it annoys me, but nothing needs be done about it" category since it don't need adjusting. (If only it was legal for me to punch them in the gut until the gum fell out...we all have our fantasies :))

 

The "problem" is people thinking something that is merely annoying is the problem.

 

Is the trash needing discarding a "problem"? Don't see a solution, everything has  a package, you can only reduce the packaging..you still have trash, just less.

Criminals us guns to commit crimes, let's solve that "problem" lets outlaw all guns....oh wait! they are criminals! Oh well I'm sure they will stop using guns right? Wrong, so the fix to the "problem" would only make the "problem" worse by disarming law abiders from protecting themselves from those that refuse to adhere to the laws in the first place.

 

You are never going to "fix" cherry picking, there are only 2 solutions:

1) totally remove all ores, hulks and minable resources (you want that "fix"?)

2) remove every other player in game so they can't cherry pick (it's a MMO..really?) (that solution is sort of like my punching them until the gum drops out...it's a "solution" but the other ramifications to that "solution" out weights the means :))

Edited May 31, 2013 by Mattsacre

[cpwings]

Dead Horse syndrome rears its ugly head again :(