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Future raid set-up


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Ok, so here is something that may have not been covered, so I figured I would post it and open a discussion. I know that there is still so much to work on, so bear in mind that this is for future plans after a full beta version is released.

I did not do much raiding when the game was live even though I was in Merchant Marines and Freedom Fighters...the reason being I played a JE for most of the time the game was live, and their usefulness is limited on a raid.

I do remember that in groups and raids that the skill Enrage didn't do very much, and raids consisted of PW's and TE's blasting away and taking turns stealing aggro and backing out when the damage was too much to take.

In other MMO's I have played the raids are MUCH more technical, requiring a good balance of DPS classes, support classes, a couple good "tanks", and a balanced group of healers. However, in those games, the mobs aggro is far more controllable, and the encounters are set up so that without a properly balanced group the encounter cannot be defeated.

I guess the question I want to pose to the players and dev's is if raids will be kept identical as they were in live, making everything but the best healers and the best dps warrior classes useless, or if given the chance will the emu attempt to "fix" raids to make JE's, TS', PS', PP's, JD's and JS's more valuable in raids.

Even if some minor alterations were made to make enrage a fully working skill and make the skills and device buffs and de-buffs other classes have useful in raid encounters would make raids more balanced and make other classes besides the TT, TE, and PW actually worth bringing to a raid.

This issue is something that isn't of dire importance, but I figured the discussion should at least be brought up so that developers and the community could discuss in the months prior to even a beta release of the emulator.

I guess it would be nice to see buffs and de-buffs that made enough of a difference that even the weaker "scout classes" would be a valuable asset to a hunting party or raid.

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The Explorer classes could be used in raids, since they could Jumpstart fallen Traders & Warriors. For classes like the JT I agree, I don't really see much place for her in a raid, while the PT can get in just fine due to it's great firepower.

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Well in raids like FB every class had a use..the explorers for their obvious jump start to get others back in the action and to lower debt, they also were buff bots..the explorers all could get devices that even vendor bought added +20 resist to various damage types, just the +20 was nothing to sneer at especially over a raid wide it lowered just how much healing and patching a TT had to do..kept the tanks up longer etc.

The explorers also had things to their type..JE added reactor recharge and could give chunks of energy to others via devices, plus leech. PS had shield recharging buffs via devices and repulsor shield could cumulatively dish out a lot of counter dmg (plus they could spam gravlink helping PW save the power and debuff rotation)if they should get the fluke menace in that was a huge help.

JD (depending on player count) would be alt tank, psibuffer, or puller. In FB the healers would stand off from boss so they didnt draw any agro from them via area heals and the JD would summon peeps getting dinged over to the healers to heal/patch then they could get back in the action. They also could push/pull jump starters so the didnt have to wade through boss ADDs to save people.

TT roll was obvious...in big raids like full FB they would group 1 TT per group for group heals and then a group of 3 or so TT for the JD to pull to.

PW usually was the heads up tank and TE the switch off tank or pickup if PW went down. A second group w/ TE and PW was usually used for placement of ADDs or secondary dmg.

With the 3 new classes that should add a new demension for variance and should be interesting...I would image the JS would be a healer and recharger..probably be the best in that back group of JD pull/healers. The PP I bet would be less a fighter but the healer in the combat group rather than the TT (if they did both fight and spam heal they would be out of juice fast) they might also be spam heal and menacer. The TS can jump start and patch..I bet they be the best in the push/pull jumper via JD, as well as a reapply the device resist buffer.

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Don't make the mistake of thinking the explorers are "less" in a raid..their influence is subtle but can make or break a raid...just think a L9 chimera (JE)device debuffs a mob for 60ish% dmg versus plasma, a L9 baselisk (PS)device debuffs a mob for 60ish% for chem. So the debuff is CRUTIAL..+ 60% dmg VS mobs! In raids they are not close to a base..even if you are willing to take the xp debt and tow..you have to warp all way back from that station to the raid....no way will a raid survive if people have to tow..thus they NEED a jser.

For that matter don't under estimate a JS(JT) heals are crutial..but also reactor juice..with the JS reactor buff on it would keep juice hungry PW and TE in the fight....don't forget in live the mobs and bosses had debuffs also...some of the Tengu had reactor draining effects..the JS buff would counter that.

Some of the Tengu and many of the arduinne had a sig boost buff (making everything see you and aggro you) the group stealth skill would counter that. Gravlink was nasty if you couldnt warp away...what would you give to have a Jenny to teleport you away? subtle but valid tactic. Gravlink not only debuffs explosive-impact dmg..and slows the mob down so group can kite it..but it also lowers the mobs maneuver rate (which is used to calculate if they dodge a missle or not) Mass field grav link slows the mob AND everything around it...if they was swarming you could hit one and trap all the other mobs around it.

These are just some of the tactics you could employ there are many others that I leave you to discover and enjoy.

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well, I should have clarified...it was rare that I was invited to a raid where I wasn't on the sidelines out of group passing out jumpstarts. Yes, on some BBW raids the reactor transfer was useful when dealing with EMP equipped mobs, but that seemed to be the extent.

I know that you can find a use for any class on raids....for example the TS can hull patch, use all sorts of useful devices, and jumpstart just to name a few features. However, anyone I talk to says that the class is pretty much useless in raids or serious grouping.

Maybe I am completely off base, and every raid leader will want a full and balanced set up, but I didn't get the impression that support classes other than TT's and an ungrouped explorer class to jumpstart would be in great demand. so this thread is to discuss if people feel that everything is fine as is, or if there are ways to make support classes possibly more useful in a raid.

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  • 3 weeks later...

well, I should have clarified...it was rare that I was invited to a raid where I wasn't on the sidelines out of group passing out jumpstarts. Yes, on some BBW raids the reactor transfer was useful when dealing with EMP equipped mobs, but that seemed to be the extent.

I know that you can find a use for any class on raids....for example the TS can hull patch, use all sorts of useful devices, and jumpstart just to name a few features. However, anyone I talk to says that the class is pretty much useless in raids or serious grouping.

Maybe I am completely off base, and every raid leader will want a full and balanced set up, but I didn't get the impression that support classes other than TT's and an ungrouped explorer class to jumpstart would be in great demand. so this thread is to discuss if people feel that everything is fine as is, or if there are ways to make support classes possibly more useful in a raid.

I'm sorry..but if a raid boss is exluding any class then he is a fool. EVERY class has a skill that is valid and vital.

ALL explorers (je,ts,ps) can use dmg resistance devices..thats a MINIMUM of +20% dmg mitigation (and those devices are vendor gettable)..that translates to 20%less healing the healer has to do....leaving more reactor juice for spot heal/patch.

EVERY explorer has something unique to them in devices (progen more shield centric, jenny reactor) the TS seems to bridge the gap a little. When new stuff comes in for the 3 "lost" classes the TS will have uniques for them as well.

EVERY explorer has some skill based buff/debuff that is useful (repulsor,menace,leech,enviro shield,hull patch etc.)

Keep in mind that the "lost" classes are still far from fleshed out...there are many devices and gear missing for them still..the PP are truely screwed in the device department still. So to your point, yes maybe the raid boss is shoving a class to the side..if so they are penny smart pound foolish.

If you are basing impressions on the usefulness of classes in current raids in...keep in mind the current raids are abreviated at best..and boss/adds skills aren't even emplimented. FB took LOTS more players live to accomplish and needed a full spectrum of skills to counter/achieve.

At this time TS and others may be religated to the heap...but in full flesh out I can Guar-an-frekn-tee they will fill a VITAL nitch in future.

Like in live PS were the very last picked kid for the ball game in P.E....thats until someone took a risk and included them and took note of just how better the group did as a whole with them..and then took the time to research the "hidden buffs" they imparted..after several of the big players saw what was what they wouldn't even dream of a group without a PS in it. This I'm quite confident will be true for other classes in the future.

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The only class I'm not quite sure how she would be grouped is the JT, would there be one extra group with a TT, JW, and 4 JTs? If so I can see some possiblities, she being just behind the front lines, checking to make sure every warrior in the raid has their reactor power increased, (which makes her ultra-girlie graphic for reactor opt very useful, she can see who needs it reapplied) but she needs something else she can do. Wonder what devices she'll get, but I think as her L135 skill, and as some JT only devices she needs to bring some healing to the raid beyond shield recharge (since she doesn't have the TT's hull patch or the PT's firepower), and maybe some useful buffs or debuffs not covered by the explorers.

Based on Serinna's raids run on Andro I could see most groups consisting of:

3 guns: (any combo of PT, TW, and PW, JW as alternate)

1 explorer: (TE, PE, or JE)

1 Medevac: JW

1 Healer: TT

I see how the PT and TE get in, but not the JT. Maybe the JT has some really good devices in store for her that we're not aware of, she'll need them.

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In the raids I went on, I always asked if my PW (Spa) was needed or my JE (Zzorana) or my PS (Xminny)

and because I was well equipped on all, 9 out of 10 times I was asked to bring my PW for the firepower I provided

When the raids where in USA Prime Time, my JE was asked for more often, followed closely by my PS. And as I was one of the few who actually used my 'uber' loot, as I wasn't worried about loosing quality, I had a ball

One of the fun toys I bid and won, was the cube of leech, 50/50 chance of working, and when it did, the Boss Mobs were hurt bad when the leech stuck. Of course the menace worked better in live than now and was used mainly to scare the minions away so all firepower could be directed at the Boss Mobs and I was asked to bring the PS when the server was low

Not sure how the new classes will be used in the raids, but thats the fun part

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well in live the class types in group effected the grouping passive bonuses, now they arent class specific but population. What I mean by this: If a TT was in the group the passive group bonus would be increased shield cap/recharge and higher cash reward from loot (so a mob that gave x amount of credits and loot would give x+n credits) the TE wouldn't add shield rate..but the cash as more players grouped..i.e. "negotiate". Then TE only added 1 passive, the TT 2 as the TE had rally..his was "active".

The jennies passives was reactor based..the reactors would get a fast recharge rate for the group and the active for the JD was the psionic shield, the 2nd passive from the je was the scan range of group.

Keep in mind that these all had a icon for them and popped up as players added to group in the buff pane.

The progen was a bit different..they didn't have icons pop up for when they added...so while the PW was desired for his tanking abilities he wasn't what was considered "group enhancing", consider the plight of the lowly PS then..his icons both didn't pop up but he wasn't even considered a group tank! So from a grouping stance most assumed the progen sucked...this was a mistake, and raid bosses soon relized that the progen group buffs were "hidden" the PW actually did add a group buff "crit" it just didnt show in the group icons, all the group got a better chance at crit hits. So what was the lowly PS's addition? He actually had a hidden "active" debuffs, his menace and grav links had a increased chance of hitting (grav link slows and lowers mobs manuever rate..i.e. less dodging hits..increasing dmg) menace makes the mob cut and run (i.e. no counter attacks, debuffs etc.) in a group setting the menace actually lasted longer than advertised..once again "hidden".

So the role of JS? I figure like the TT 2 passives, the jenny reactor recharge rate for group and something specific to JS...maybe a hybrid group buff...reactor/shield..jenny trader....maybe the PP could get shield/crit? or one of the PS hiddens like increased active rate.

I keep saying..the bosses and adds dont have all their debuffs in yet...most of them had reactor debuffs, either hack based *shudder* or rate reduction, this gave the warriors coniptions for sure. So the JS skill of boosting reactor charge rate would counter the debuff...maybe the passive could be reduce reactor hacking...something I'm sure.

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Not so sure for the other classes, but the bonuses brought passively by grouping with a Jenquai are:

JE= Reactor Recharge

JW= Critical Hits

JT= Warp Recovery Time

JE and JW are same as they were in Live. JE and JW can increase your scan range, if they max their scan skill, since Scan 7 shares scan range. JT does not have that option since she only gets Scan 5. If you're a JE or JW, with max scan, you only need to apply scan buffs to yourself, and they affect the whole group, so long as you're not beyond a certain distance from them. Ghost's Edge energy laser had a good scan buff on it of a little over 5K @ 200% quality. Unfortunately that buff isn't available on any existing plasma beam. (GE also has buffs to reactor recharge and cloaking)

Basically I think that the JT just needs some more utility, but since we don't know what her device lineup will look like after she's been balanced, there could be utility yet to come. Most of the things she can do fairly well, raid wise, someone else can do better.

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@Terrell, is the max scan skill working? i.e., is it being shared to group members properly?

Don't know for sure right now. I do have 1 toon with scan maxed, will have to test it out.

Edit: Tested it with my JW Torrence and my PE Toria. Torrence has a scan range of 6.3 with Scan 7 and no Scan buffs included, Toria has a scan range of 5.0 with no scan buffing gear installed. When I brought them together outside of Arx Spartoi, and grouped them, Toria's scan range did not go up. So it's still broken. Now Torrence is a Ten'shao and Toria is only a Librorum, so she's pretty small, but grouping her with my JW when he has max scan, should improve her scan range. (I haven't maxed scan on my JE, left it at 5 for now)

This also means that the Scan skill isn't giving the right buff at L7 as well.

Edited by Terrell
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  • 2 months later...

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