Seeker, L9 engine or L9 device

[Terrell [BT]]

Pretty straightforward, do you think that the JT would be better off if she had L9 engines, and L8 devices, like she does now, or would she be better off with L8 engines & L9 devices, like she did between the implementation of Reactor Opt, and the end of ST3?

I'm a vote for L9 devices, and L8 engines. Even though the JT is a trader by profession, in combat she's going to need to do debuffer duty, and a L9 debuffer is more effective at least in terms of percent debuffed than a L8 one. As a race Jenquai are both more device and skill dependent than the other 2 races. It's how we get around our poor shields. If a JT has a L9 coma, she can blind a mob better than if she has a L8 one, and she can debuff both energy with her Manticore, or plasma with her Chimaera if they're level 9 than if they're L8.

While L9 engines are nice for trade runs, does a JT really need to get a L9 one, since she can get pretty fast with a L8 one and travel gear. Also in my opinion the L8 Solar Sail, given it's zero sig, great buffs (particularily in terms of energy use) and great stats, is probably the best choice for a JT. I can't really think of a L9 engine that I would use on a JT, other than maybe the Intent of the resolute, but that's a hard sell for only 250 more warp about 20 more thrust (at 200%quality), and buffs that are not as useful as the SS8.

There are a few L9 devices I would love to use on a JT, Specialized build Computer R9, Scientist's Data Cube, L9 Coma, L9 Manticore, L9 Chimaera, L9 Roadrunner Plus, L9 Lazarus are just a few. \\While the class could work with either configuration, I think she'll be better in combat and combat support with L9 devices, than she would with L9 engines to choose between the two. Don't know what the devs have planned for this class as far as class specific devices or engines as of yet so the opposite may be true depending on what equipment, particulairly in devices & engines (L8+) that she'll be able to use, when the game goes live

Edit: forgot the poll:

[Lot]

Seekers without device tech 9 always stuck me as an oddity.

Engine tech 8 or 9 either would be arguable.

Guess there was a dev way back yonder who said "this is how it shall be, make it so!" and cursed seekers.

[Noxmire]

Jenquai have always been a Device-heavy race, even though Reactors are their true specialty. I say give them Lv9 devices and Lv8 engines (we are the only race host to a class with six device slots, after all). If given level 9 engines, they'll be the only class I know of with Lv9 capability in two out of three core components (reactor and engine.)

[Mattsacre]

Well according to the lore of E&B the Terrans are supost to be the rulers of trade routes and engines..as in live they were the engine makers it would seem more likely for the JS to have 9 device, 8 engine. In practice later on they let warriors types have L9 engines but the engines were more combat geared and the L9 TT entended engines had buffs for them and ecluded the warriors.

The jenquia were always device heavy/hull light as the progen was hull heavy/device light. PS did get L9 device...but there was VERY few they could use..it was a major gripe very few PS went to L9 because of it..that one reason they created the Oni device/ boss encounter like it was..to force them to L9 (it took L9 device PS, L9 device JE and a terran to put all their 1/3 together to make the oni device).

Also remember the PP only get L8 engine/L8 device it would be out of line for JS to have a L9 engine. To be balanced they should get that higher level of device to balance the PP 5 weapon slot.

[seekeronos]

Gonna hop on the bandwagon here, even though it means that "if enacted... the only people who could use a L9 {stealth-buffing engine whose line I can't remember} would be Terrans".

And a bit ironic in the sense that no Jenquai would be able to use their top-level engines: somehow I think this is the key point that the devs will use to strangle this otherwise really cool idea in its crib.

Of course, the other recourse would be to take away L9 reactors instead...

[Noxmire]

What, the Ursa NGC 9 or Trifid LGS 9?

A lot of races have equipment that seems "meant for them" but is at a techlevel that they can't reach. Take a look at the RE-X9 "Supernova" MK.IX reactor. Turbo, boosted missile range, looks great for a TE, right? Well, the only characters that can use it are Jenquai, since no Terrans or Progen can equip Lv.9 reactors.

[Terrell [BT]]

Gonna hop on the bandwagon here, even though it means that "if enacted... the only people who could use a L9 {stealth-buffing engine whose line I can't remember} would be Terrans".

If you are talking about the Trifid (Mercurius & Halley at lower levels), those engines work better on Terrans than Jenquai at all levels in terms of stealth, compared to a Solar Sail of the same level.

The reason for this is that Jenquai have a base racial sig of 0.5, compared to the 2.5 of the other races. As a result the Mercurius/Halley/Trifid engine will always add more sig to a Jenquai from it's engine sig than it takes away from it's sig reduction buff (which is percentage based), while with a Terran it does the opposite. This results in the Solar Sail being the stealthiest engine a Jenquai can use

[fuulishone]

What, the Ursa NGC 9 or Trifid LGS 9?

A lot of races have equipment that seems "meant for them" but is at a techlevel that they can't reach. Take a look at the RE-X9 "Supernova" MK.IX reactor. Turbo, boosted missile range, looks great for a TE, right? Well, the only characters that can use it are Jenquai, since no Terrans or Progen can equip Lv.9 reactors.

Actually Progens Warriors and Privateers can and do equip level 9 reactors. They just don't choose the Supernova line because there's much better available (Heart of the Master as an example) that's more "for them." Now whether or not Progen Sentinels can use level 9 reactors... That's a question for a PS to answer. The character planner at Net-7.org definitely shows PS as limited to level 8 reactor, but somehow I think that's not what's happening in game. Comments?

Also, if you look at the character planner, Jenquai Seekers are listed as Dev 9, Eng 8 as Terrell has pointed out several times already. I think overall the issue is that there's a desire to have only 2 techs at level 9 and 2 at level 8 for every race/class combination, and it's almost a coin toss whether you choose to follow class lines or race lines.

In the class mentality, JS should be dev 8, eng 9, but then the PP should be eng 9 as well. In the race mentality, JS should dev 9, eng 8, but then by this same standard, TS should be dev 8, shield 9. So how do you decide where the compromise lies?

[Noxmire]

Wait wait wait wait, I thought Progens got racewide access to Level 9 shields? Which Progen class gets a level 9 reactor and do they have level 9 shields as well?

[fuulishone]

Wait wait wait wait, I thought Progens got racewide access to Level 9 shields? Which Progen class gets a level 9 reactor and do they have level 9 shields as well?

PW, PP are lvl 9 reactor/shield

PS are lvl 9 shield, not positive about reactor (char planner shows 'em as max lvl 8)

[Lot]

PW, PP are lvl 9 reactor/shield

PS are lvl 9 shield, not positive about reactor (char planner shows 'em as max lvl 8)

PS tech limit is indeed lvl 8 reactor.

[C Del[IS]]

PW - L9 Shields and Reactors, L8 Engines and Devices

PS - L9 Shields and Devices, L8 Engines and Reactors

Not 100% sure about the PP, but I played PW and PS in live, and I'm certain the above is correct. I'm thinking PP either has the same setup as the PW, or gets L9 engines instead of reactors.

[Noxmire]

Well heck then, change my vote. If other races can have a class with 2 Lv9 core techs ("core tech" being defined as reactors, shields and engines, the three things you aren't supposed to leave a station without), then I don't see any reason why the Seeker can't have two, as well.

Right now, no Jenquai has access to 2 Lv9 core techs; the JD is 8/9/8 and so is the Explorer.

[fuulishone]

Well heck then, change my vote. If other races can have a class with 2 Lv9 core techs ("core tech" being defined as reactors, shields and engines, the three things you aren't supposed to leave a station without), then I don't see any reason why the Seeker can't have two, as well.

Right now, no Jenquai has access to 2 Lv9 core techs; the JD is 8/9/8 and so is the Explorer.

Devices are considered a core tech as well, insofar they're a passive tech and one of the tweaks used to "balance" the classes. For the JD and JE, Device/Reactor are the two L9s, Engine/Shield are the L8s. The contention is what the JS should be at.

[Lot]

PW - L9 Shields and Reactors, L8 Engines and Devices

PS - L9 Shields and Devices, L8 Engines and Reactors

Not 100% sure about the PP, but I played PW and PS in live, and I'm certain the above is correct. I'm thinking PP either has the same setup as the PW, or gets L9 engines instead of reactors.

PP is the same as PW.

[Noxmire]

If you're going to count devices as a "core tech" then you have to count weapons as well, since weapons can hold buffs just as easily as a device can; in fact, some classes (Terran tradesmen come to mind) choose weapons that are positively crappy but have useful buffs to other skills (like Equipment Engineering on the Great Dane line of lasers).

That means the PW is at 9/9/9/8/8, PS is at 9/9/8/8/9, PP is at 9/9/9/8/8, JD is at 9/8/9/8/8, and JE is at 9/8/9/8/9. JS are currently sitting at 9/8/9/*/*... which means the JD needs a tech bumped from 8 to 9 (I vote shields).

As for the Seeker, putting the matter in this format makes the decision a bit harder. I'm tempted to say "Trader = Engines" but that's just because of the long tradition of the Terran tradesman. I'm also tempted to say "Jenquai = Devices" but that's just because of the long tradition of the Jenquai Explorer, the closest they had to a trade-class prior to the implementation of the missing three classes.

Thinking on it a bit more, Devices are, technically, the more powerful of the two choices. Devices can do a lot of things, and some Lv9 devices are ridiculous in the sheer amount of buff they can apply. Further, Jenquai have some of the widest selection of devices... though admittedly a lot of those are class-restricted to Explorers. I'm going to tentatively change my vote back to devices. JSes do have at leat 5 device slots, correct?

[Terrell [BT]]

Seekers do have 4 weapons and 5 device slots. The JW and JE would both be counted the same, as far as core techs, even if you include weapons, since all Jenquai get L9 beams.

One of the really big things with respect to devices, is that most debuffers come in the form of devices. While there are weapons with debuffers, like the Hellbore, the Jenquai only have one and of course it's an ENERGY weapon, rather than a more useful Plasma one. Weapons also don't usually have activate buffs on them, and I can't think of any engines that have such a buff either. Shields & Reactors, do sometimes have activate buffs on them.

[fuulishone]

If you're going to count devices as a "core tech" then you have to count weapons as well, since weapons can hold buffs just as easily as a device can; in fact, some classes (Terran tradesmen come to mind) choose weapons that are positively crappy but have useful buffs to other skills (like Equipment Engineering on the Great Dane line of lasers).

While weapons are core, they don't really factor into the tweaking aspect of the other cores. All races/classes have one weapon class that maxes at L9. And really that's all that's important.

In the area of the questionables, pretty much any class can live with L8 devices or engines. It's just a matter of which is more useful/desirable to a class due to the ITEMS that are currently available. I think that if there was some super-uber Jenquai compatible engine at L9 available now, the discussion in this thread would change.

[Lot]

Progens all have engine 8 and shield 9.

(PW/PP/PS Reactors 9/9/8, Devices 8/8/9)

Terrans all have reactor 8 and engine 9.

(TT/TE/TS Shields 9/9/8, Devices 8/8/9)

Jenquai all have shield 8 and reactor 9.

(JE/JD/JS Devices 9/9/8, Engines 8/8/9)

Those are the consistent tech characteristics of each race.

I am beginning to swing to leaving Seekers with engines 9 and devices 8 because the other races, apart from those two consistent tech characteristics, have variety in the other two techs. If Seekers got device tech 9 that would give Jenquai a consistent three tech charateristics -- more consistent than any other race.

I think that argument in a nutshell explains the how and why seekers have got engines 9 and devices 8.

If you consider the "third" tech near characteristic you'll see a trend. For Progens it is reactors, for Terrans it is shields, for Jenquai it is devices. The trend doesn't become a complete characteristic, just a nearly characteristic, by variety.

/end of discussion

[Noxmire]

In the area of the questionables, pretty much any class can live with L8 devices or engines. It's just a matter of which is more useful/desirable to a class due to the ITEMS that are currently available. I think that if there was some super-uber Jenquai compatible engine at L9 available now, the discussion in this thread would change.

So what would qualify? This zero-sig, reactor-shunt, shield-recharge buffer? This Low-sig, sig-improving, turbo weapon engine?

[fuulishone]

Neither are particularly useful for a Jenq. The Intent of the Resolute is nice and all, but as has been pointed out in a different thread, Jenq don't really kite and so the extra maneuverability isn't all that useful. Our cloak serves us better. On the shunt and recharge shield, it's equip only and not activated and as Jenqs have atrocious shields for the most part and good reactor, we don't need something to hurt our shield regen, nor help our reactor.

With respect to the BS9, the turbo on that is crap compared to the turbo on raid weps, and they don't stack as they're both equip buffs. The reduce sig is helpful, but since the engine itself has .5 sig of it's own, it's kind of a wash. Again, kind of a meh engine for a Jenq.

[Terrell [BT]]

Not to mention the SS8's buffs are Reactor Renewal (which stacks with Reactor Recharge), Shield Renewal (Which stacks with Shield Recharge), Increase Maneuverability, and Device Energy Conservation. In addition to all this, it has zero sig, and great stats. I don't think that, overall, there's a better engine a Jenquai can use in the game than this engine. Why would a JT want to put any other engine on her ship in combat? The Ursa 9 is useful for trade runs, the 3700 sig is a dealbreaker for combat or combat support. Why waste the skill points for that one engine that is of limited use?

I'm just not seeing a L9 engine that's worth the use on a JT. At least not among the ones that exist, none hold a candle to the SS8. Unless you add an SS9 there really isn't another choice for the high level Seeker.

[Zyrith Skye]

Just because there aren't any items in the game currently doesn't mean that isn't what the original developers had in mind. Maybe they just never got around to making lvl9 engines for a class that was never released.

Keeping them at Devices 9/Engines 8 will make all the Jenquai the same, which is kind of boring if you think about it. We can't give them Shields 9 or take away Reactors 9 due to racial qualities and back story.

Engines 9 on a trader class makes sense from a role-playing aspect. But also so does Devices 9 for a trader as they can use the Matrix devices for builds.

I could possibly see the JD get Devices 8/Engines 9, as they're the rogue of EnB.

[dcwestby]

I say go devices, after all, at least at the moment, I'm not too crazy about pushing any toons engines up past 7, let alone 9, so devices it is.

[Mattsacre]

Just because there aren't any items in the game currently doesn't mean that isn't what the original developers had in mind. Maybe they just never got around to making lvl9 engines for a class that was never released.

Keeping them at Devices 9/Engines 8 will make all the Jenquai the same, which is kind of boring if you think about it. We can't give them Shields 9 or take away Reactors 9 due to racial qualities and back story.

Engines 9 on a trader class makes sense from a role-playing aspect. But also so does Devices 9 for a trader as they can use the Matrix devices for builds.

I could possibly see the JD get Devices 8/Engines 9, as they're the rogue of EnB.

See now there is exactly why its engine 8 device 9....the build matrix etc. If it was felt that the JS needs some access to L9 quality engines/buffs its much easier to have aL8 item with L9 assets reserved to a specific class (L8 engine/trader only/jenquia only) wouldnt be so hard as completely redesigning the devices around them (and thusly having to adjust it for other L9 device users etc.)

In fact to get the L8 JS only engine you can have a whole mission line/story line wrapped around it. Just like other items for other races. Me I would have a mission line along the lines of say the L30 HU the progen go through or the insperation one (hey someone else should feel the pain ). And actually be realistic..you have to drag your butt to and fro all over the universe fetch and carrying at a slower rate warp..to get to the higher rate warp engine.