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Kiting Live vs. Now


  

30 members have voted

  1. 1. Should kiting stay as it is or was kiting in live more fun?

    • It is good as it is now
      10
    • In live it was better / more fun
      16
    • I don't like kiting / no need of kiting
      4


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As the title says, i want to know what players think about kiting.

Just to clarify what kiting means:

Kiting means to be able to hold a distance between mob and player where mobs fire range is lower then this distance.

Most of the player base knows kiting from live so i think it will be interesting what they think.

greets

Hexergirl

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Although I checked "Better in Live more fun", I think it is more of a challenge Now and you'll need to be on your toes more and the use of a JD (Summons) and a PW (Gravity Link).

And also the use and need for a better engine comes into play more now and the Need for the Classes to build those engines.

If you got to chase an NPC you'll also be putting yourself in danger, its like the NPC is pulling you into a trap.

It was a little more fun in Live but it makes more sense now and more of a challange the mob AI mimics that of what you or I would do.

Phorlaug...

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Never really liked kiting or the idea of kiting, personally. It made guns kinda weak for Progen and devalued lasers for Jenquai. Missiles have that obscene combination of incredible range and no need to face your target, making kiting so much easier for Terrans than anyone else. Everyone else has to contend with subpar missiles and the fact that most of the equipment that would improve missiles for them is race-restricted to Terrans.

Sure, Jenquai and Progen can kill stuff without missile kiting, but they need to make heavy use of their active skills (Cloak and Foldspace for Jenquai, Gravity Link and Menace for Progen). Terrans don't need to do much; just throw up Rally, target a victim, set your missiles on autofire, turn tail and run like hell - only thing you need is plenty of ammo and a clear lane of retreat.

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Is really no comparison to live currently, mob AI hasnt been finished yet, and mobs skills are still basic at best imo (both of which will get better). Also currently grav link does not slow down mobs for those who hadn't realised it yet.

Sorry, but mob AI wasn't asked. :lol: Just kiting...... ;)

greets

Hexergirl

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Never really liked kiting or the idea of kiting, personally.  It made guns kinda weak for Progen and devalued lasers for Jenquai.  Missiles have that obscene combination of incredible range and no need to face your target, making kiting so much easier for Terrans than anyone else.  Everyone else has to contend with subpar missiles and the fact that most of the equipment that would improve missiles for them is race-restricted to Terrans.

Sure, Jenquai and Progen can kill stuff without missile kiting, but they need to make heavy use of their active skills (Cloak and Foldspace for Jenquai, Gravity Link and Menace for Progen).  Terrans don't need to do much; just throw up Rally, target a victim, set your missiles on autofire, turn tail and run like hell - only thing you need is plenty of ammo and a clear lane of retreat.

Kiting wasn't designed only for Terrans, but they were th:lol:best. ;)

All races were able to kite(kite as i described it in my first post), if with beams, projectiles or missiles.

greets

Hexergirl

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Is Menace considered kiting? :lol:

I think that's reverse Kiting.

Didn't really play Terrans much in Live, started a TT as a comp builder but couldn't really get in to using her in Combat. I find that I like my TW and TE much more than I liked my TT from live, in terms of combat so I think for my Terran toons the game is more fun now than it was in Live. My Terran toons use kiting tactics exclusively.

For my Jenquai toons the game is harder than it was in Live, but with the fixing of Fold Space, so that it works almost the way it did in Live, Fold Kiting works much better than it did earlier in the Emulator. My JE, JW, and JT are liking being able to Fold Kite again. My Jen toons simply need the Coma device and they're good to go. (Jen toons rely heavily on skill and device use in combat, so I think it will be more fun when everything in that arena works fully. Thanks again for fixing Fold Space)

My PE so far likes the game, and it's just as fun to play her now, as it was in (late) Live. Especially if I make my PT build her some reactors. She's still pretty small now, so I do kite with her, but when I get and put some points into Menace, she'll be reverse kiting.

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Kiting wasn't designed only for Terrans, but they were the best. :lol:

All races were able to kite(kite as i described it in my first post), if with beams, projectiles or missiles.

Yeah, technically any race can kite, but keep in mind; beams and guns both require you to face your target, and additionally, beams tend to have a short range: even the best of beams, range-wise, can barely reach 3.5k range without some form of range-boosting device or equip. Compare that to a minimum of 4.5k range for missile launchers, held by the worst-ranged ML in the game to my knowledge.

This means that you have to find a mob that is slower going forward than you are at full reverse (very difficult, especially at lower levels where kiting helps the most - my JE can only properly kite with beams while on-planet. In space, his impulse is just too slow), and if you're a beamer, you also need to either stack range enhancing devices or hunt short-ranged mobs, lest the enemy get a shot in on you every time you move in to land a hit of your own.

So yes, while kiting is technically possible with any weapon that has nonzero range, it's likely to be a complete impossibility in practice unless you are highly levelled or armed with missiles.

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When the Coma device & mobs' scan range works properly, if they don't already, kiting for Jenquai will be easier.

Blinding a mob's scanners with your coma device also effectively reduced the mob's weapon range. For a Jenquai toon in combat, using a Solar Sail, and a Coma are almost mandatory for kiting. Getting a DG or GoD also helps plenty, since they both boost beam range and reduce sig which makes kiting easier. Also don't forget to use the Fold Space skill to keep your distance. Jenquai don't need that much speed, our rather average engines are adequate to the task, if we remember that we can teleport. Jenquai have plenty of energy to pull this off, especially the JE and JT.

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All the speed and foldspace in the world doesn't mean anything if the enemy outranges you. Using a Coma is a good idea to blind the enemy's scanner and reduce their effective range, but that also means they have a harder time following you when you foldspace away; I don't think enemies can chase someone outside their scan range.

But still, that just only just emphasizes my point; your average Terran doesn't need any of these skills or equipment to kite effectively - just an ML (or two, or three) and ammo, and a not-entirely-crappy engine. Thus they can put the same skill/device/equip slots that a Jenquai or Progen use on reducing enemy range and increasing their own to use in dealing more damage. GoD and DG are both high-level beams, and so aren't all that good of a choice early on. In fact, most low-level beams don't have enhanced range, leaving you stuck with the various proto beams, which have few to no secondary properties beyond above-average damage and range, and more importantly, aren't manufacturable, meaning you'll never find one over 180%.

Really, the best trick for Jenquai is to not kite at all: Get combat cloak, and get the most damaging per hit beams you can get. Cloak, move in, spike a mob with everything you've got, and recloak. Let your shield recover (the DoT from your plasma beams will keep your enemy from recovering his), or recast psionic shield once the enemy is out of range, then let them have it again. Your beams' recharge rate doesn't matter because they can cool down while you're cloaking; fast beams don't do you any good because they'll be restricted to the slower beams' cooldown.

This way your beams' range honestly doesn't matter, because you'll be spiking them from point blank anyway for maximum damage (remember that beams lose damage from longer ranges, or are supposed to, anyway.) You'll take a hit or two in return, but hey, that's why shields regenerate and JDs get psionic shield on top of it all. They'll be taking a lot more pain than you do.

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If you're playing a low level Jenquai toon, you can get a beam range boost on your reactor starting at L2 with the Gallina, and following your development all the way up to L9 reactors. Switch to Draco at L4 & Cygnus at L7 (all have a beam range boost, and a reactor buff). You can get any JE or JT who builds reactors to make you a PM one, or you can go to Ishaun station and buy the Gallina reactor. (My JT can build all those reactors, barring any bugs in reactor recipies if you provide the parts) Getting your Coma will be a bit more difficult, since you will have to find a builder, but you can use them starting at L3 devices (OL 20 for JE/JW, OL30 for JT).

You should be using a low level Solar Sail as soon as you can find someone to build one, until then use a Mercurius. In terms of Siggy, for a Jenquai, Solar Sail is the best choice of engines when compared to engines of the same level (makes me wish for a L5 and L6 SS).

For Fold Space you only need to put 3 skill points into it prior to L150 for any Jen toon. I used L3 version of it in Live, and since it was fixed in the emulator. Instead of teleporting myself away from the mob, I'd teleport the mob away from me. In Live whether I was using Beams or Projectiles, (had both maxed on my JE) they didn't seem to have any problem moving towards me after they were aggroed on me and teleported away, even outside of their range to either see or shoot at me.

Haven't got my hands on a Coma in Emulator yet, not sure if that still applies.

I agree with you that kiting comes way easier to Terrans, but for a Jenquai, with the right equipment, and L3 fold space (requires EL 5), you can can make a living doing it, though some mobs are more vulnerable than others to these tactics.

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I think people are missing a very very very important point....

Right now in EnB emulator people mostly fly solo, do stuff solo, kill solo..

I don't think Live was meant that way.

This is how I think 'roles' were meant in Live.

Pw = Tank

JD = Thief

Terran = Damage dealer/Ranger

TT = Combat Support.

PE/JE non-combat support.

PW's Grav Link skill was not supposed to help the PW, it was supposed to help the JD. GL does decreased manouvrability, helping the JD to outmanouvre the enemy and strike from behind.

Hence the JD has a paper hull, who needs hull if he doesn't get hit...

The TE was supposed to 'sit behind' the PW, dealing damage. It;s a classic setup with the TT being the White Mage.

I'm convinced that hacking and biorepressing was supposed to reduce damage output, just to aid the PW in being a tank.

The JD psi-shield was supposed to aid the PW, since they get huge deflects for everything except for psi-attacks.

You know where I;m getting at?

Back to the poll:

I like kiting as it is now, because it enables people to solo things easier.

However.. if EnB emu should go 'live' again and there would be like 1000 people online every time of day (*dreams*), kiting should really get nerfed.

The NOS device should be removed if EnB goes Live again..

Last thing: I think the last kite-nerf affects some species more than others.

For instance: GoBB zapped me real close to death before I noticed my reverse speed had dropped by 150 since last time I logged in... (-500 vs -350)

That was eehh fun :lol:

Good move, you folks really scared the hell out of me.

However... now we're back to the situatie that a JD can eaaasily solo GoBB, a TE can solo GoBB reasonably well, and a PW reaaaallly has to look out when trying to solo GoBB.

I don't mind speeds being nerfed, but the nerf doesn't affect all species equally.

I see a JD zap a mob from 8.2k, using eehmm.. DG(not sure) and L9Proto's, they don;t kite anyway..

TE's still have a foreward speed of 900+ but for a PW going from 500 back to 350.. thats huge.

p.s.

@Rabidcajun: GL speed reduction does work I'm pretty sure.

However I only notice a reduction in speed for a few seconds, and only when I use a 200% Binder Octo (combined with GL5)

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Yeah, technically any race can kite, but keep in mind; beams and guns both require you to face your target, and additionally, beams tend to have a short range: even the best of beams, range-wise, can barely reach 3.5k range without some form of range-boosting device or equip.  Compare that to a minimum of 4.5k range for missile launchers, held by the worst-ranged ML in the game to my knowledge.

This means that you have to find a mob that is slower going forward than you are at full reverse (very difficult, especially at lower levels where kiting helps the most - my JE can only properly kite with beams while on-planet.  In space, his impulse is just too slow), and if you're a beamer, you also need to either stack range enhancing devices or hunt short-ranged mobs, lest the enemy get a shot in on you every time you move in to land a hit of your own.

So yes, while kiting is technically possible with any weapon that has nonzero range, it's likely to be a complete impossibility in practice unless you are highly levelled or armed with missiles.

Ok, i see, the time since E&B was gone til now is to lo:lol:. ;)

It was just easy to kite because all Mobs were much slower than now in emu.

Kiting wasn't only a Terran thing, Progens did it with pls, Jenpies, did it with pls and beams and some even with missiles(JDs).

 

Btw, i had a beam range of 4.7k.;).. ;) And almost all mobs were slower than i with a trust of ~350 backwards.

And as a Jenpie you are able to use cloak backwards ;)o. ;)

Only the Tengu in Cooper were a bit faster so there was a need of a TT atleast for Jenpies if they would want to kite there(bad idea in live)

And at the Ardus Mobs or the Bogeril in 'Der Todesengel' or the Vrix in Roc you were toast without kiting at its best.

I thought the base of player knows how it was in live, so my fault.

And i didn't want to go for one side or the other so i did just a short post to not affect the opinions.

Right now, if i see a Terran in Grissom, flying towards a Grissom Patrol, behind him, back and then the same over and over til the patrol dies, i ask my self why have Terrans such a long range? Why have Progens such a long range?

For me, there is something wrong if that happens, but hey, was just interested if its just me, and it seems it;)s. ;)

greets

Hexergirl

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Never really liked kiting or the idea of kiting, personally. It made guns kinda weak for Progen and devalued lasers for Jenquai. Missiles have that obscene combination of incredible range and no need to face your target, making kiting so much easier for Terrans than anyone else. Everyone else has to contend with subpar missiles and the fact that most of the equipment that would improve missiles for them is race-restricted to Terrans.

Sure, Jenquai and Progen can kill stuff without missile kiting, but they need to make heavy use of their active skills (Cloak and Foldspace for Jenquai, Gravity Link and Menace for Progen). Terrans don't need to do much; just throw up Rally, target a victim, set your missiles on autofire, turn tail and run like hell - only thing you need is plenty of ammo and a clear lane of retreat.

cant agree more with nox....the terrans are born to kite...jenquai and progens are totally different in this regard...although i have recollections of kiting the birdies in antares with my pw in live....

Edit :

who has been providing data on the mob's flying speed? cos my tt and te were on their best possible gear (TT is OL 81 CL(16) and TE is OL 51 CL(14)) and i was a bit over ambitious to try my hands on the lev 25 trevor just outsite OMP and he flew so fast i just couldnt fly away from him....three shots and both my ships were toast :lol:

Edited by Indianajones
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EDIT: I had a huge post here about the merits of group combat and how each character type could contribute to a group, but then I realized that it was totally off-topic and pared it down to the essential stuff; kiting.

Thinking about it a bit more, perhaps kiting could stand to be nerfed a bit, to bring it in line with the "intended" strategies for the other warrior classes: Tanking for the PW, and Hit-n-Vanish for the JD. Terrans should be able to kite, but they shouldn't be able to get away totally unscathed - perhaps when enemies have/more actively use skills like, say, Gravity Link, Terrans will be forced to carefully select their opponents to avoid getting snared, locked in place and torn to pieces, just like JDs have to carefully separate one enemy from the pack to avoid being overwhelmed and Progen have to make sure they don't engage enemies too high level for them to tank effectively.

Edited by Noxmire
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I find it amusing that almost all of the responses are from non terrans... kiting is the terrans bread and butter it was fun and it was the style of combat that you chose as the one you liked over the other 2... not saying better or worse... but the one you liked...

now it is nerfed and needs to go back to the way it was in live imho... and dont think that kiting was a walk in the park either like any other skill (beams, projectiles) there was a method to it and if you broke from that or were not careful you were dead...

imho from what I can see, the reason kiting was nerfed here and the cause of concern over it is due to the fact that the devs are not finished with the game... mob ai is not what it should be, players are op, and world physics are still a little off... so this makes kiting seem op and has the jenpies and progpies screaming for the nerf bat... where in actuality if people would just relax... you would see that over time kiting will become less effective as the game comes into its own...

so puhlez give us terrans a break...

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so puhlez give us terrans a break...

Like I said earlier...

Terrans should be able to kite, but they shouldn't be able to get away totally unscathed - perhaps when enemies have/more actively use skills like, say, Gravity Link, Terrans will be forced to carefully select their opponents to avoid getting snared, locked in place and torn to pieces, just like JDs have to carefully separate one enemy from the pack to avoid being overwhelmed and Progen have to make sure they don't engage enemies too high level for them to tank effectively.

Right now, kiting is a walk in the park for those with missiles, but a pain in the neck for those who don't. My problem isn't with the latter; it's with the former. I see Terrans get off completely unscathed against mobs that, even with cloak-and-dagger attacks, would drain half or more of my shield bar. Maybe missile kiting wasn't easy on Live, but on here, Terrans get away with it scot-free - so much so that even Progen and Jenquai sometimes consider missile-kiting over their racial tactics, just to remain competitive, despite the fact that they can't have Level IX missiles.

IMO two things need to happen to bring Terrans in line with other races in terms of effectiveness: mobs need to use skills and longer-ranged weaponry, and there needs to be enough mobs to make running away over long distances dangerous - fleeing one enemy will likely run you into another that will aggro and slaughter you. Terrans will have to carefully choose their angle of attack to ensure a clear lane of retreat, and make sure not to pick mobs that can use skills that can lock down or hinder their ability to run, like Gravity Link, Summon, Enrage, Hacking, Menace and Fold Space.

I do agree that more terrans need to get into this topic, if for no other reason than to tell us exactly what slaughtered them most in the live game, so that the devs can duplicate it here.

Edited by Noxmire
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Like I said earlier...

Maybe missile kiting wasn't easy on Live, but on here, Terrans get away with it scot-free - so much so that even Progen and Jenquai sometimes consider missile-kiting over their racial tactics, just to remain competitive, despite the fact that they can't have Level XI missiles.

Where does one get these mythical Level XI missiles and how does one use them?

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I do agree that more terrans need to get into this topic, if for no other reason than to tell us exactly what slaughtered them most in the live game, so that the devs can duplicate it here.

In live it was simple. There were a lot more mobs, and there was no mob tether. So if you weren't careful in your kiting, you'd either hit the sector edge and thus take a pounding until you could reach optimal kite range again, or you'd area aggro other mobs. An example from live was Antares. Folks used to go there to farm Khizz (sp?) for the CVE device. He was often surrounded by aggressive aggro CL60 Voltoi at roughly 12km or so. So it was a VERY tight kite indeed for most Terrans. You'd have to take the time to clear a path in, then pull the named mob. The difficulty was that if you weren't careful, you'd pull others.

Terrans are also balanced by a lvl 8 reactor, moderate scan, and a large enough sig that they need to be careful about their vector of approach.

Here in the emu however, there's GoBB loot that never existed before, thus removing some of the balance originally intended from the equipment caps. For all classes regardless, mobs aren't as densely populated in the prime areas, so again overall less risk. And with mob tether as a bandage for incomplete mob ai, pretty much all classes enjoy some amount of "escape" from a bad situation. The only exception is when you get triple grav links by swarm aggro'ed Tengu in Cooper and can't escape.

Overall I think this poll is inappropriate for the emu. The situation and circumstances are completely different from Live and should warrant something more along the lines of, "What is the spirit/feeling of kiting in the emu as compared to Live? Is it fun?" I believe folks are too fixated on recreating the letter of "Live E&B" rather than the spirit of "a live E&B game."

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Like I said earlier...

IMO two things need to happen to bring Terrans in line with other races in terms of effectiveness: mobs need to use skills and longer-ranged weaponry, and there needs to be enough mobs to make running away over long distances dangerous - fleeing one enemy will likely run you into another that will aggro and slaughter you.  Terrans will have to carefully choose their angle of attack to ensure a clear lane of retreat, and make sure not to pick mobs that can use skills that can lock down or hinder their ability to run, like Gravity Link, Summon, Enrage, Hacking, Menace and Fold Space.

I agree, for this point. But at all your posts you miss one important point: All races have 2 weapon skills!

if all races, should only be able to use there race weapon effective, a second weapon skill isn't needed.

And: Projectiles are also made for range attacks not to sit in front of a mob. That is maybe the case in groups but not solo.

Yes, you are right, right now a Progen can just sit in front of a mob and kill him.

But we will see when mobs doing their job correctly and try to kill you with all they can;);)

But hey, my mind does nothing here. I wanted just to see how the players feeling is.

I'm often online on play server and in addition of playing my toon i read the chat and i have my eyes widely open to see

what's going on in the galaxy.

Thanks for the good feedback, there will be more Polls coming, just to see how things are going.

greets

Hexergirl

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I agree, for this point. But at all your posts you miss one important point: All races have 2 weapon skills!

if all races, should only be able to use there race weapon effective, a second weapon skill isn't needed.

greets

Hexergirl

I agree with you on use of secondary weapons, I think the 3 biggest barriers to their use are:

  1. No L9

  2. Limited Skill points available before L150 (other skills/equipment more important use of the points)

  3. No in race support, and little non-race support for alternate weapons

I can't really propose a solution for the first 2 things, but for the third thing perhaps Blacksun could do it, maybe there could be some other companies that make such stuff available in game.

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Where does one get these mythical Level XI missiles and how does one use them?

That was a typo and a good reason never to try and use roman numerals to distinguish equipment levels, even though the game does most of the time. It's fixed, happy?

*mutters about nitpickers*

I agree, for this point. But at all your posts you miss one important point: All races have 2 weapon skills!

The thing is, most of these secondary weapon skills aren't any good to use, with maybe the sole exception of missiles. Terrell hit upon the big 3 reasons why, but there's also another reason - the rest of your skills typically don't work (or don't work well) with these alternate weapons.

Let's use the Jenquai Defender as an example. Let's, for argument's sake, say he's using missiles instead of beams. Now, not only doe he not get access to the level 9 missiles (*glares at Jarod*), but most of the strategies he would normally use no longer work.

  • Summoning is pointless; the ML's strength is its huge range, so why would you want to shorten it?

  • Foldspace could be useful, provided you either use the level that teleports enemies away from you, or the level that lets you control the direction you teleport in, but if you opt to cast on enemies, it might not take and a "missed" foldspace would leave you vulnerable.

  • Cloaking would still be as useful as ever from a tactical viewpoint, but you would not get the bonus damage from dropping out of combat cloak; that only works with beams.

  • A JD is generally slower than a Terran of any kind, so kiting is a slower process, if you can do it at all.

  • The JD lacks Rally and Hacking to self-buff and debuff the target, respectively.

So yeah, even though you can technically use missiles, you're missing out on some of the perks of your best skills (Cloak's ability to double beam damage when dropped), and some of your most iconic skills have no use at all (Summon). A JD in this situation would have to fight like a miniature-TE with Foldspace; anything he could do with a missile launcher, a Terran could probably do just as easily and probably do it better. In live. The ability to use weapons other than your "main" was probably intended as something of a novelty, kinda like how mage-classes in most other MMOs technically CAN hit an enemy in melee and stat themselves appropriately towards it, but will never be as effective as an actual melee class and are better served by focusing on their strengths.

Here, we've got sparse mob spawns and limited mob AI; missile kiting becomes much easier and far more viable for more than just Terrans, to the point where I've had PWs and JDs outright recommend to me to go missile instead of guns or beams respectively, should I take those classes. And honestly, that disturbs me.

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