MINERS - please respond - cherry picking

[seekeronos]

#### WARNING #####

Before voting, please read the following:

This is not at all intended to be a "drama post", though I realize straightaway that some may take it as such.

This poll does not refer to any particular incident.

I bring it to this forum only to assess the mind of our miners as it touches on the subject of "cherry picking", that we may gain a community consensus on what it is and isn't.

Please be civil, and please discuss your thoughts on the subject.

Respectfully,

-Seeker

EDIT: Added a fifth answer to hopefully provide another perspective for those who didn't vote earlier.

[xulei]

I picked the first definition, but it really only has to be not emptying a roid - just depends on what folks are after (just usually goes the way you worded it)

[Danbetheroy]

No such thing in my opinion, this is no different to when in combat you take out what you want and leave the junk. It is just a mere inconvenience to the next person who wants to mine, but again like in combat they will eventually spawn again..

Most MMO's make me laugh in situations like this, if there is an exploit or a quicker way of doing things, players WILL find it and use it. It usually only gets classed as the above once players themselves start complaining or if the Devs realise it shouldnt work that way, then its up to the said Devs to fix it so it works the way it they wanted it to.

If it is really a problem for people, heres a suggestion, once a player opens a roid, make the said player be stuck to the roid till its empty. problem solved (till he runs out of vault space then it becomes an inconvenience whilst he trashes the stuff he dont want), but then we do the same for combat of course...

/Flamesuit ON

Edited so i dont get picked up by those pesky spelling type police lol or should that be laugh out loud for the people who hate computer speak..ah stuff it who cares

[Amethyst]

So who is actually complaining? The person who comes along second, who wanted the best ores themselves, and are too late? First the roids naturally respawn after a period (an hour?), and second, can be forcibly be respawned by completely emptying the field. You then know it will respawn in the next 10-15mins. And you will have collected a nice field clearance reward. Because someone has already visited the field clearance will be easier too.

There are a lot of reasons why fields are left half empty - 'cherry picking', the nasty mob, your dinner is ready, or you find something better to do.

All I can suggest for those who like a clean field is go round clearing the fields. However, the altruists have a dilemma. Do you completely clear your last field and let is respawn afresh for the next luck person or not. If you dont clear the field arent you a cherry picker too.

Lastly - its just impossible to manage a tiny hold with the variety of ores so you really should be selective. There are not many good fields with single roid types (it would be nice Devs??). To get the ores the builders need I have no alternative but to fly to the furthest reaches for the best ores, and selectively mine to a list. I really dont think there is a problem as there are just so few miners and so many roid fields. However if you are one of those competing for the small number of juicy roids in a risk-free, mob-free Glenn - well - go explore. There is plenty out there. No hulks mind <nudge>.

[Guest Builder]

IMHO

Don't forget Progen limited scan range for potential asteroids too!

And full cargo holds that may also have ammunition in them too limiting the ore types you may want to get.

Cherry picking could be defined as 'leaving ores that no-one wants' in which case why arn't you clearing them up too!

Cherry picking is similar to boss mob spawns, or spawns for rare items, or the best jobs. You know that anyone who will want it will go for it. There may be some kind of respect in the order, possibly; but enforcing ones rules on others may lead to resentment. A mining group with agreements as to what ore everyone is getting is the best route; then trade over ores later that may be needed by others.

Cherry picking was also applied to the job terminals, although that was the 'norm'. Some jobs quickly vanished in live, whoever could click on them first from what I recall as a TT. Its a fact of the game, although how you interract with others may smooth your passage later on. I do remember on Galileo that Caveat Emptor had a bad rep for a bit for cherry picking a certain mob drop and cornering the market for those builds.

Cherry Picking is simply 'cornering the market'; similar to being the few with the analyzed gear, or the farming of the sought after mobs, or the selection of the highly sought after mobs. It'll happen, but the game is multiplayer and there is always cause and effect. And this is why cherry picking shoudn't be banned - if players want to cherry pick then they may get bad rep back; some may choose to selectivly cherry pick and invite others to mine, fight, build etc. Unfortunately, getting rich quick tends to be human nature!

[Work Computer]

[bondct]

I didnt vote cuz the first question needs another choice... I love to vote in polls... but really this poll will never accomplish its goal imo cuz some people will by pass the vote due to poor filtered choices... you need an all of the above choice imo...

anytime you leave an ore in a roid for any reason imo you cherry picked it... but also imho and keep in mind that except for the sole tt I will make to build me stuff... ALL my toons are miners... and imo its a players right to pick and choose at their discretion what they will and wont mine from a roid.

unless I am missing some options here, I can only think of 2 reasons why a person would not like a cherry picker

1. they wanted those resources

2. xp bonuses (which btw if you are a role player you have no right to worry about as a role player would not know what xp is )

In both of those cases I say too bad on you... if you wanted resources and someone else got them oh well... and sorry but its not my job to max out your xp so oh well...

Keep in mind that the devs could easily take away this freedom to cherry pick by locking a roid so while this debate is age old a consensus is also pointless unless we are going to make a new kind of server in addition to the pve server, the pvp server, and now introducing the NO Cherry Picking Server (which we would interestingly enough combine with the no multi-box/macro server lol).

[irrelevant]

what ever you call it, its inconsiderate to not empty asteroids, and in the current mining respawn setup, not to empty a field (depending on situation), because then the roid/field will not respawn until someone comes along and cleans up your crumbs.

But its mostly on the level of inconsiderate, could only be griefing in very very specific situations.

Not voting because of the second question has nothing I agree with.

[dcwestby]

I'm not voting because there frankly could be more options then what you have up there.

[Vinzent Zeppelin[IS]]

It's a non-issue in my opinion -- you don't get the "missing" minerals for another 20 minutes or so, but you can clear the entire field more quickly for a nice gain of experience.

[Guest Lets Camp]

Cherry picking is part of the game, just like Kill Stealing and using the nice online map database.

[bondct]

Not voting because of the second question has nothing I agree with.

Well at least a number of us can agree that we there seems to be an issue with the poll selections

[Terrell [BT]]

I don't think that cherry picking amounts to griefing and I don't see any obvious situation where it would. But I do agree with irrelevant that it's inconsiderate. I think the roid clearing XP bonus is a strong enough answer to it as far as how the game works is concerned. Since we don't have that many players on at once an explorer (includes TE and PE) can always mine somewhere else, especially when all the orefields, and the hulks are in.

Scan range isn't really a big issue for the Progen and Terran explorers, like the Jenquai Explorer, they have a base scan range of 5.0K. The PE and TE (E=Explorer) also have Scan 5 which adds 2K to base scan range. Only the JE has better scan range than the PE and TE before buffs. What makes the JE have the best scan range, is the combination of both Scan 7, the expanded Scan range given to all Explorer classes, and fairly commonplace scan range buffs for Jenquai. JW is next with 3.5K scan range plus Scan 7, JW does have readily available scan buff equipment. JT follows with 3.5K Scan range and Scan 5. Everyone else has 3.5K plus whatever scan buffs they can find.

[StarSeekerVDS]

I'm the last person who'll engage in "bad" tactics in a game, but honestly, for the convenience of other players a miner is expected to fully loot any given asteroid that he comes across, regardless of his cargo space, reactor capacity, or free time--given also the fact that the asteroids are found all across the game universe and respawn regularly besides? Ridiculous.

If this is a real problem, it should be addressed by changing the spawn rates and/or locations of the fields, not by imposing unrealistic expectations on the players.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Princess Ayami

[Starkor]

In my personal opinion, I don't think there is a such thing as cherry picking. If someone gets their first, they get what they want and if they don't clear everything including the field, they don't get that bonus... that's again, MY O-P-I-N-I-O-N.

[Yazuly]

I didn't vote but I will make a comment.

Sometimes I don't clear a roid because it has ores that I really can't mine or it takes an entire reactor to mine 1 ore. When I get a roid that has 2 level x ores and 5 level y ores, I may only be able to mine the level x and have to leave the level y. Sometimes I don't clear a field because it isn't worth the exp debt from the overpowered mobs guarding a field (level 23 mobs guarding a level 2 resoucre filed isn't worth it). Sometimes, because of whatever constraints I may have, I may only mine two types of roids because it gets too time consuming to dump other ores out of the hold because there are way too many ore types than I have cargo holds.

[bondct]

if a miner cherry picks in an ore field and there is no one else to see it, is it still cherry-picking AND... does it make a sound?

[seekeronos]

I had to revisit this and saw that I was indeed missing a possible answer, which actually lines up pretty close to my way of thinking on this issue.

IMO: I really don't get to chuffed about people mining for this and that. If you got to those roids with the L9 "Unobtainium" - good on you. I'll come back some other time to look for it, or find another field where I can get it. So in my book, pick away. The server will make more.

I'll generally clear a field if I'm doing it for exp. (and in that case will try to find fields with only one or two resource types so I have a good chance of clearing it).

Lately, because of an apparently decreasing amount of room in my vault, I'm mining for specific resource types.

The "incident" if you will, that lead me to post this poll this was a mostly friendly discussion I had with a fellow miner whilst clearing stuff out in the Niff Cloud (lots of mixed type fields, and some areas that stray close to some particularly nasty mobs, if they aren't necessarily guardians).

She had an definition closer to the third option (leaving behind a certain type of resource roid - i.e. not even touching it being somewhat inconsiderate - this may have been in the context of a presumption that we would clear the field for the bonus).

In my case, it was leaving behind crystalline and gas resources, since I have very little room in my vault and inventory with numerous stacks of radioactives, metals, and hydrocarbons --- and I didn't feel compelled to tempt fate or Nagifars by going for those two crystal roids which might have been within their aggro range.

We resolved it pretty amicably, though I'll still disagree with her opinion on leaving roids behind as a "cherry pick".

[irrelevant]

As my post above indicated, i am of the "cherry picking is inconsiderate" mindframe, but I do NOT think that applies in many of the situations you guys described (too dangerous, ore level is too high, completely out of room, or my own reason when I do it, gotta /quit for rl). What I'm talking about is miners who simply don't want to dump/vendor ores that are too low or too useless or them, so they leave those ores in the roids/field for the next miner who comes along... again, I don't think it goes beyond being inconsiderate in most cases.

[Amethyst]

...some game mechanics I observe as a regular miner...

If I mine the best L8-9 ores from a field, and return an hour later they miraculously have refilled, albeit with a slightly different mix of ores. Apart from Glenn I am yet to see hordes of miners fighting over rocks. There are plenty of roids and not enough miners. The areas I frequent are rarely visited by other miners. In fact there are 4 systems I go to for 3-4hrs a day and I am yet to see a miner there.

Once things get busier I'd suggest the issue is about respawn, intensity and distribution. And once hulks appear in their fullest sense - then cherry-picking will become a way of life for many miners. First come...

[Falstar [MOD]]

Many of you brought up good points I will say that it has been admitted that there is still some work to be done on roid fields, one notable one is the distribution of types of roids. I believe that a goal in the future is to have more 'types' of fields, so you don't run into the "I've filled my cargo space and have 1/3 of the field to go which is a totally different type than what my hold is filled with" You'll be able to see a few more crystal fields, or radioactive fields or whatever, than what I see as a very mixed selection at the moment.

[Guest Builder]

Yes,

Byakhee has been 'refining the selection of ores that will drop in Progen areas'

Relative to limited ores in live for the ore fields seen, and for the new ones limited to the 'nice' progen projectile ammunition component ore requirements in a concentrated field, guarded by mobs. The terminology here is 'guarded'.

Ps.

Migrated a change over to play regarding the Trade Embargo and Trade Blockade missions. Also level 100 final bonus has changed. Missions are evolving.

[Work Computer]

[bondct]

I don't think that cherry picking amounts to griefing and I don't see any obvious situation where it would. But I do agree with irrelevant that it's inconsiderate. I think the roid clearing XP bonus is a strong enough answer to it as far as how the game works is concerned.

if your L150 who cares about xp bonus? and as far as how the game works... if "the game" wanted you to clear, they would force you to do it and not give you the choice. while I dont think its inconsiderate in the least I will always clear cuz I got the space or will send out a mule to pick up stuf.. (hey its all money) and the faster I clear the faster I get respawn and I am usually looking for something anyway... but I will say this... when it comes to the uber L9 ores... its really just a race from roid to roid to grab and run...

rare ores are like rare spawn mobs... you dont worry about the random belter X you were killing when belter joe spawns...

what I wonder is if you mined every last level from el1-el50 and mined it solo and got every last clear bonus... how many levels would that equate to in the big picture... could be like one... wouldnt that be funny..

[Terrell [BT]]

Even at L150, XP earned is important, until you max all your skills. (which will take a while with 1 point per level beyond 150, and no referrals)

Cherry picking, btw, is just taking the good stuff out of a roid that you've opened, and leaving the rest rather than emptying the roid. (absent insufficent reactor, insufficent space, or being attacked) I don't begrudge those who get to the roid first mining it. I do think it's inconsiderate to the next miner to go from roid to 'roid and get the good stuff, without emptying any of the roids you open. (There is a rather specific definition of what cherrypicking is, beating the other miner to the 'roid in and of itself is not cherry picking)

I don't think that game mechanics should require you to empty a roid, or to clear a field, but I do think it's a good thing to reward miners who do so. I would also favor a de-spawn timer on an asteroid if it's only partially emptied.

BTW, I didn't vote in the Poll, as I didn't see an option that fit my point of view closely enough in the 2nd question, and there's no option to vote only on the first one.

[bondct]

i didnt vote in the poll either... ill say that again just to reinforce that once again we have a poorly worded poll on the forums... and taking the good stuff is very subject to interpretation... the good stuff (short of rares) is what you need at the time... and while it takes awhile to max all skills after 150... for the most part at L150 your toon basically does what you want it to do and imo the post 150 gains are usually minimal... for example a TE maxing engine skill post 150 or a TT maxing befriend, enviromental shield, secondary weapons, etc...

also imo and just imo the only reason we have some of these mining bonuses is just to appease whiners (note whiners back in the day... no reference to now) so EA would not have to deal with them

[Kutless]

Can anyone confirm how roid respawning works?

Do you have to clear out a whole field to respawn it or can individual rocks respawn?

If you take 1 type of ore out of a roid but leave the rest does this stop the roid from respawning?

If taking 1 ore out of a rock stops it from respawning it might not be griefing but it is kinda of counter productive. You will eventually be left with a field full of trash and have to look elsewere, instead of clearing and having more respawn.