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Black Spitter


Lot

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Plasma? Ugh. Give me a decent (not ISTABBQ powered like that one beam...) manufacturable energy debuffer and I'd never equip another plasma weapon again.

I would disagree, since in Live there were enemies that could not be killed with energy weapons. Manes, which were often orefield guardians, were an example of one. The high level ones were actually healed by energy. Voltoi were also immune to energy in Live.

There were some other mobs that, while not immune, were resistant to energy, and you would be better off with plasma weapons, than energy weapons, even though you could get the job done with energy. Spindles come to mind.

JT's have access to a line of energy debuffers. The Manticore line of devices, but they can only be used by JT,TT, and PT.

When mob resistances are implemented, it will be beneficial to have access to more than one damage type.

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I always hated how in live EMP was useless for any situation, impact/explosive/energy was useless (or at least sub-par) for 90% of situations, chem was only useful in weapons that didn't have plasma ammo, and plasma was what was loaded 99.99% of the time, regardless of which mob being attacked or which class attacking it. IIRC I never found any mobs that were plasma resistant, much less plasma immune. I was hoping the EMU would change this.

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I always hated how in live EMP was useless for any situation, impact/explosive/energy was useless (or at least sub-par) for 90% of situations, chem was only useful in weapons that didn't have plasma ammo, and plasma was what was loaded 99.99% of the time, regardless of which mob being attacked or which class attacking it. IIRC I never found any mobs that were plasma resistant, much less plasma immune. I was hoping the EMU would change this.

On this I agree with you. I do think that there should be some mobs that are resistant or immune to plasma, requiring people to use Energy, Impact, or Explosive, depending on race. Some of the worms in Arduinne Planet may have been resistant to plasma in Live, but I'm not sure of that.

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always hated how in live EMP was useless for any situation, impact/explosive/energy was useless (or at least sub-par) for 90% of situations, chem was only useful in weapons that didn't have plasma ammo, and plasma was what was loaded 99.99% of the time, regardless of which mob being attacked or which class attacking it. IIRC I never found any mobs that were plasma resistant, much less plasma immune. I was hoping the EMU would change this.

Let me offer some modification on that...the mobs on arduinne planet were immune to plasma and were actually healed by it. Many a time I had to tell fellow progen to go back and change out their ammo because they was healing the mobs I was shooting with impact or chem (they were a bit weaker to chem).

The vindi drones in Niff used a EMP projectile that was wicked, especially to power short progen..since they had to get in range to shoot back, the vindi's EMP very shortly ate up the progen reactor juice. But the vindi also were weak to EMP, so if you were a terran or progen that wanted to toss in a slot or 2 of EMP ammo you knocked down their shield fast..but did diddely to hull, so most didn't bother.

Indeed most manes either resisted or were immune to energy and the jenquia were eternally bemoaning lack of "good" jenquia plasma beams. Most good ore spots were guarded by 1 or more manes.

As a general rule chem went to hulled mobs quite well..especially the body snatcher type mobs as they had a huge hull to shield ratio..and had a shield/hull patch skill, chem chewed through hull better and had a disruptive effect to their hull patch buff. Also the ostrea in VT(and other areas) had a fellow shield patch (healed each other but not self) while chem didnt eat through their bio-shield as fast as plasma did..like the body snacher the chem had a "stuttering" effect on the heals..if it didn't stop the heal all together it at least interupted and slowed them down.

The RD in sheppard had a mean EMP beam with a moderate reach, if you did't stay out of its reach you soon was crying for a JS..but they too were weak to EMP.

As a rule of thumb most things that threw off a set type of dmage also had a weakness to that damage. (there were a few exceptions)

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Oh forgot the plasma immune named mobs, Miguel chavez guy in rag was 85-90% immune to plasma, also a semi-rare named chavez in freya was completely immune to plasma, but he was really weak to chem. As I can recall other than the vindis and the RD in sheppard EMP was useless and very few even bothered switching ammo for those..the devs back then intended to expand on mobs to make EMP and other damage types more usefull..but as we all know EA had taken over WW and stuff like that went to the wayside.

The Ten-gu were about 50% immune to impact and bosses even more but had no immune to plasma or chem. so sometimes it paid to toss in a bit of chem for that "stutter" effect because some of the ten-gu had wicked debuffs other than just gravlink (like reactor slowing recharge...or sig boosters etc.)

The voltoi in antares was energy immune (jenny hated that also) so they had only the plasma option, I always added at least 1 chem in with my plasma ammo when hunting there with my PS to stutter their wicked tricks.

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hmm, i have looked at the Black Spitter, really nice PL and good buffs.

turbo weapons

improved projectile handling

scan range +6120 !!! pew.....

Impact Resistance

Energy Resistance

non manu

unique

And you want more ammo options?.......wow...why?

40% turbo

3,53 levels better accuracy and criticals ....Progens, no they haven't enough criticals....;)

a scan increase over 6k.........

2 of 3 the most used weapon damage types as resistance

All a progen needs: less devices needed, powerful, turbo.

darn.....

Maybe for the sake of completeness an energy type to add, because it has impact and energy resistance.

But you can't have all goods on one weapon. That's life ;)

I'm not speaking for Webby, but i don't think he will see that different after he made such a weapon for the progens. :)

Pah, Progens, never satisfied.... :)

greets

Hexergirl

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hmm, i have looked at the Black Spitter, really nice PL and good buffs.

turbo weapons

improved projectile handling

scan range +6120 !!! pew.....

Impact Resistance

Energy Resistance

non manu

unique

And you want more ammo options?.......wow...why?

40% turbo

3,53 levels better accuracy and criticals ....Progens, no they haven't enough criticals....;)

a scan increase over 6k.........

2 of 3 the most used weapon damage types as resistance

All a progen needs: less devices needed, powerful, turbo.

darn.....

Maybe for the sake of completeness an energy type to add, because it has impact and energy resistance.

But you can't have all goods on one weapon. That's life :)

I'm not speaking for Webby, but i don't think he will see that different after he made such a weapon for the progens. :)

Pah, Progens, never satisfied.... :)

greets

Hexergirl

1.Well why would a progen want other damage type? Because some mobs (like Tengu have damage resists they resist impact) and as mobs come in like live even more of the ones you are used to now are going to be resistant to one type or another..and do a wider range of dmg types also. I t would be nice to be able to switch ammo type for your mob type (thus differing ammo types!) could you imaging if the only beams in game were energy and (like live manes were energy immune) the jenny couldnt get plasma? Oh what a cry would emit from theior lips! :)..or imagine if the only ammo a terran could use on their uber ML was EMP...do you think the terrans would remain mute? I' KNOW they wouldn't :)

2.The progen are "device lite" on debuffers etc. the only plasma debuffers they can get are high end (bully eye) or mid range (taniwa) which are loot only..they can't get a PM debuffer like others can, as the PM ones are all restricted, in the case of bully eye its warrior only..so the PS and PP can't even get that. In fact the one and only debuffer line that a PP can use that is PM is basalisk (chem debuffer) and at 5-6 it has a deal breaker debuff they don't want. So if and until they can get some devices that a PP/PS can use (there are some PMed a PS can use I think), would not it behoove a PP/PS to try to use ammo types that maximized there dps if they are familiar with the mob...especially tengu that have a +50% resist to impact..even with grav links (which a PP dont have) -25% debuff to impact dmg..thats still a +25%..for sure a progen in the know would use something else for dmg ammo wise.

3. Some of the ammo types have side effects..like chem has a bonus to hulls..sucks on shields, but it has/had a stutter effect on mob tricks..as more of the mobs buffs/debuffs come into play this can become very important. Or EMP..when they start getting mobs lined up with factored for shields/reactors/buffs etc. being able to lock down there reactor juice with EMP or a jenquia coma device will be a valued tactic.

4.The weapon in question is the progen UBER weapon..they have to loot it to get it....like every terran and their brother wants a hellbore..that and the flinger are the terran ubers...THEY get a choice in ammo..why not progen..the buffs on those qeapons are mega good for terrans...why not progen? While the spiiter must be looted (no PM) the terrans can get hellbore built (yes I know right now you have to rip a hellvbore for the part to make a hellbore...but it is POSSIBLE to do, if not now then in the future as content enters. Tell you what take impact ammo away on the spitter and give it the build in plasma debuffer the terran uber gets.

Just my 4 cents worth (inflation don't you know :))

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And you want more ammo options?.......wow...why?

Pah, Progens, never satisfied.... :)

You're kidding right? Go look at the Caster and it's effects and it's ammo options then comment.

:)

Edit: Actually I'll give you a clue -- Caster has same buffs and FOUR ammo types, all I've been asking is to add plasma ammo to the Spitter so that it goes from one ammo type to two. It will give an option to Spitter users to switch ammo for mobs that are impact resistant.

Edited by Lot
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@Mattsacre:

Hellbore isn't manu, so it's whatever quality you happen to loot it at. Also your representation of what's considered uber isn't exactly right. For Progens, the DT ballistas and late game V'rix stuff were pretty highly desired. The same was true for Terrans. For Jenq's there were no drops for them from DT afaik. As much as people like Hellbore, it's a horrible piece of kit. It's nice now since the full item database isn't in game yet... But once the Sting of the Mordana and Intolerance device are in game, I have to wonder if the Hellbore will continue to be so popular and desired.

@Lot:

Perhaps the better answer (altho likely to be unpopular) is to reduce the ML's four ammo types to one - explosive.

@All:

tldr version

Limitations to the very best of gear is a healthy thing and forces you to consider what to use and when and keeps things fresh. Everyone having exactly the same end-game kit is boring. Remember, GoBB wasn't in live and likely hasn't had the benefit of a balance pass in terms of his drops. Things may change.

long version

When discussing the weapons that GoBB drops, why is there no discussion around the fact that the Black Streak comes in only one flavor? One damage type per weapon is a reality that all Jenqs have to deal with, and nothing can change that. Look at some of the weapons that are/were most desired by level 9 beam users:

Black Streak - Energy

Defender's Pride - Plasma (JD only, is this even in?)

Devastating Gaze - Plasma

Emerald Devastator - Plasma (JD only, no trade, self-manu similar to Dragon's Fang pl and Rage ml)

Eye of the Dark One - Plasma (no trade, no manu)

Eye of Destruction - Plasma (can be pm, similar to Bile Cannon/Launcher)

Ghost's Edge - Energy (not in game yet, afaik)

Glare of Devastation - Plasma (no trade, no manu)

Prototype DM Force Emitter - Energy (not in game)

Sun Focus 2000 - Energy (not supposed to be in game)

So all told we have exactly two damage types available, and we MUST mix the damage types if we are maximizing buffs. Putting on all Plasma only forces you to lose out on the buffs on the Black Streak for example. It's a matter of compromise and deciding what's best for your style of play, and who you're grouping with.

If Tengu right now were actually impact resistant, then yeah the Spitter would be less useful than other choices in terms of the ammo restriction. However, you could choose to use a different weapon and compensate the buffs in other ways, either through mixing and matching the other equipment slots, or by picking appropriate group mates to help in that regard.

For debuffing...

Impact: L5 Taniwha's Pride, or strap a Terran into your group and have them use the Gorgon's line.

Chemical: L6 Thordis' Lament, or use a Basilisk up to L9

Plasma: L4 Tatsu's Pride, L8 Pulsing Bullywere Eye (if you're a PW), or bring a Terran w/ Rada line (up to L5) or a Jenq w/ Chimaera (up to L9). A TW/JD in group with Bullywere Eye, or a Terran with Hellbore would work too.

This is the group aspect of the game. The Spitter is a wonderful piece of kit, but the min/max for a solo situation seems... Overkill.

One final thought... Keep in mind that GoBB was never in live, so his loot probably hasn't been fully balanced.

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@Lot:

Perhaps the better answer (altho likely to be unpopular) is to reduce the ML's four ammo types to one - explosive.

Nope, that's a terrible way to answer the problem. And it's about as likely to happen as having all MLs in the game restricted to just one ammo type. If anything I suppose the buffs might get looked at on the GOBB weapons but the ammo options should be increased on the Spitter. Most projectiles come with at least two ammo choices and MLs often have more choices available compared with projectiles.

Black Streak is also a problem item because the re-load is too short for me to be comfortable with using it. And Jenqual have always wanted more options for IX beams and it would be great to accommodate them.

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Nope, that's a terrible way to answer the problem. And it's about as likely to happen as having all MLs in the game restricted to just one ammo type. If anything I suppose the buffs might get looked at on the GOBB weapons but the ammo options should be increased on the Spitter. Most projectiles come with at least two ammo choices and MLs often have more choices available compared with projectiles.

Black Streak is also a problem item because the re-load is too short for me to be comfortable with using it. And Jenqual have always wanted more options for IX beams and it would be great to accommodate them.

That's a good point, would Chem fit better than Plasma since Progens have non-restrictive Chem debuffers available to them?

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That's a good point, would Chem fit better than Plasma since Progens have non-restrictive Chem debuffers available to them?

I don't know but may be both plasma and chemical because looking at level IX projectiles many seem to have three options i.e. impact, plasma and chemical. Lower level projectiles seem to be the ones limited to two options. May be three options for the Spitter would be closer to what everyone wants ideally.

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Black Spitter is already in this version an uber weapon, so why all you need to one weapon?

Now, you have 6 weapon slots on a PW, what you load on the other slots? Right, you can choose what you need, plasma, impact, chemical..

So, where is the problem? :)

Black Streak is energy, are the Jenquais crying because its not the more liked plasma?

I could now tell you a bit more about the Black weapons, but hey, no need, who ever looks a bit more specific at the stats would never have in mind to cry in the forum about only one choice of ammo........

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Black Spitter is already in this version an uber weapon, so why all you need to one weapon?

Now, you have 6 weapon slots on a PW, what you load on the other slots? Right, you can choose what you need, plasma, impact, chemical..

So, where is the problem? ;)

Black Streak is energy, are the Jenquais crying because its not the more liked plasma?

I could now tell you a bit more about the Black weapons, but hey, no need, who ever looks a bit more specific at the stats would never have in mind to cry in the forum about only one choice of ammo........ ;)

greets

Hexergirl

It's hardly an "all you need weapon" when it had only one ammo type.

How about instead of posting crap you take a serious look at why the Black Spitter is popular? I will clue you in and educate you yet again. It has the best DPS of the turbo projectile weapons. And if you bothered to look you might see that the other level 9 turbo projectiles each have three or four different ammo types.

DPS is one reason for the popularity of the Spitter. It has better DPS than FotM which in turn has better DPS than than the FotTG. A secondary reason is the buffs - the scan range buff is pretty useful for example.

It is because it has the best DPS that the Spitter is #1 choice.

Same reason also makes the Caster #1 choice.

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Anyway, to get this thread back on course again.

It would be an idea and I am suggesting that Spitter gets one or two more ammo types. That would put it inline with other projectile weapons at the same level i.e. they offer more than one ammo option.

The issues of balance should be addressed by whomever whenever they have time. For example, they might want to give the other projectile weapons (e.g. Fury of the Ten-Gu, Fury of the Master) slighter better DPS and make the Spitter have slightly less DPS and close the performance gap between them all.

The ammo types is just a simple issue as far as I see it -- it needs more options.

Fix one problem at a time -- ammo options and then balance.

Debating everything at the same time is non-productive as this thread so far has demonstrated.

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Oh another reason (your post jogged my memory)

AMMO COMPS: FoTM needs bio items from FB to make the ammo since they removed the Maws from outside the FB. If your not a constant denizen of the FB you wont be able to feed your FoTM. If you are a miner...or play the market with miners/comp builders you can get the ores/comps to feed you spitter its ammo. The FoTM ammo comps if you don't get yourself are hard to pry from other players hands..since they are feeding THEIR guns ;)

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It's hardly an "all you need weapon" when it had only one ammo type.

How about instead of posting crap you take a serious look at why the Black Spitter is popular? I will clue you in and educate you yet again. It has the best DPS of the turbo projectile weapons. And if you bothered to look you might see that the other level 9 turbo projectiles each have three or four different ammo types.

DPS is one reason for the popularity of the Spitter. It has better DPS than FotM which in turn has better DPS than than the FotTG. A secondary reason is the buffs - the scan range buff is pretty useful for example.

It is because it has the best DPS that the Spitter is #1 choice.

Same reason also makes the Caster #1 choice.

Ok, first point:

If you want to talk to us, then you should have a last look to your post before you send it.

Second point:

You should first read the post,  and then read again, before you give an answer..

But i'll help you a bit: 

I could now tell you a bit more about the Black weapons, but hey, no need, who ever looks a bit more specific at the stats would never have in mind to cry in the forum about only one choice of ammo........

What you think means that?

now yours:

How about instead of posting crap you take a serious look at why the Black Spitter is popular? I will clue you in and educate you yet again. It has the best DPS of the turbo projectile weapons

 

And yet to that one ' I will clue you in and educate you yet again', i played from beta to May 2004 i don't need any help from you to understand the game mechanics.

I really can't understand it, one side you want something and on the other side you post like that...........

I like it to help and to talk about what can we do to make the game better, but hey, that was the last post in this thread for me.

Maybe you have luck and Webby has fun to read such posts, but not me. Thanks for reading.

Have fun all.

greets

Hexergirl

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A little hint for those who don't Hexergirl is one of the most pro active devs in the project.

A well worded argument is what is required with some reasoning.

Hex puts alot of time in to this project, and is willing to make changes where needed.

Even in our sector reviews we make suggestions and you know what I think I get the fastest responses from her.

Remember what may be dead obvious to you , may not be as obvious to us as we are often testing many toons at varying levels at anytime.

All the best

Alkemmi

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A little hint for those who don't Hexergirl is one of the most pro active devs in the project.

A well worded argument is what is required with some reasoning.

Hex puts alot of time in to this project, and is willing to make changes where needed.

Even in our sector reviews we make suggestions and you know what I think I get the fastest responses from her.

Remember what may be dead obvious to you , may not be as obvious to us as we are often testing many toons at varying levels at anytime.

All the best

Alkemmi

lol

Edit: White knighting aside may be this thread needs to start again and may be Hex can look at the subject again with an open mind and behave how you have described.

Edited by Lot
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What I think Hex is trying to say, and I agree, is that why do you think the Black spitter should be the best weapon in every category.

You've already said it has the best DPS, and some of the best buffs. Right now its ONLY limitation is that it only has one ammo choice. If it could use any ammo type why would anyone ever NOT use it if they had it?

This game is about choices, there should never be a weapon (or shield/engine/reactor/device for that matter) that has a PERMANENT slot on your ship. There should always be a different equipment choices that must be made when ever you hunt in different sectors.

If anything I think the ML version of this weapon should only get to use explosive damage.

I know Tengu are impact resistant.. boo friken who. There are plenty of other weapons to use and plenty of other sectors to hunt in. Jenquai don't bitch and moan when half of their weapon choices go out the window whenever they set foot into Antares(Which aren't just energy resistant, but IMMUNE to and some are actually HEALED by energy).

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What I think Hex is trying to say, and I agree, is that why do you think the Black spitter should be the best weapon in every category.

You've already said it has the best DPS, and some of the best buffs. Right now its ONLY limitation is that it only has one ammo choice. If it could use any ammo type why would anyone ever NOT use it if they had it?

This game is about choices, there should never be a weapon (or shield/engine/reactor/device for that matter) that has a PERMANENT slot on your ship. There should always be a different equipment choices that must be made when ever you hunt in different sectors.

If anything I think the ML version of this weapon should only get to use explosive damage.

I know Tengu are impact resistant.. boo friken who. There are plenty of other weapons to use and plenty of other sectors to hunt in. Jenquai don't bitch and moan when half of their weapon choices go out the window whenever they set foot into Antares(Which aren't just energy resistant, but IMMUNE to and some are actually HEALED by energy).

Wellllll...actually they do complain about the antares thing....all the time in fact....they complain about there not being "any good jenquia good plasma beams with jenquia buffs" most notably. And if there was some 4th type of beam possible i would help them argue for it (don't see how you could have a chemical beam...unless urine stream counts :D)

I follow OPs post quite well...he was arguing for a 2nd ammo type...NOT all 4..a 2nd...like terran get all 3 on thier BBW ML..is 2 too much? I would argue that chemical would be the logical choice..since PP get screwed out of ANY high end plasma or impact debuffers (they only get the basalisk at high end (chem))

He wasn't arguing for a nerf bat to PO the terrans or the jenquia..just 1 small ammo tweek..OUTRAGIOUS!!!???really?? 0.o

Choices:yes other guns give you're choices..but the usual short sightedness of EA has a little problem..to get the better guns oyu have to use inferior first right? Then you hope to get a good gun in a raid..Good you got that FoTM, or FoTG...oh wait...I need bioparts to feed it...were do i get the parts..oh...got to raid again to feed the guns...so I use my comps to get the comp...jeez hope I got a few left over so I can kill BB to get another gun of a ammo type I don't like.....

Why shouldn't there be something that you equip that never leaves that slot? You say. Maybe a CFB should be the end all shield until new high end content overshadows it..THEN thats the new CFB.

Its only draw back is is ammo type..its better than all the others? Well depends on your outlook..what makes a gun "better" yes the dps is more..and the buffs are desirable...but is it "better" that the ammo comps are a mandatory PM? If you dont have a comp builder or a buddy that is..is it "better" you have to beg market for the ores...then the comps built? Wouldn't a reaver gun be a "better" gun at that point. By your very arguement the spitter isn't in the permenant slot...nor is it the end all gun.

While I'm on your "it shouldn't ever be perment slot..how about asking JE's if they ever take out a golden tooth? I know I don't..its the great all around device...should we nerf it to spite other classes?I don't think so.

About the hexer girl thing... He/She made a snide remark on another posters considered opinion...then got a snide remark in return..then huffed off with hurt feelings. Then others rushed in to hex's defense. Scrollup...if you dish it..take it. This doesn't mean Hex isn't a great person...nor the other posters..it dosen't mean anyones contributions are to be made slight of..it's all OPINIONS..and like they say...opinions are like...<what we sit on> ;) everyone has one.

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Have to agree with Mattscare on us Jens (JEs especially) and our complaints about plasma choices. I've listed the reasons before, but he covered them just fine. My JE did take out his golden tooth, but it was because he got a Loony's Special Gizmoblatsit & a Veiled Oyoroi (not at the same time), which covered the buffs in question, plus gave other ones.

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