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Mining Thoughts and Observations


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It keeps rolling around in my head that each rock had a small bonus for taking all the ore in it and that even if you took just one (cherry picked) it would respawn in live. To be honest I don't remember bonuses for clearing fields.

It feels like: "I know you need ore x, but if you clear the field you can have y amount of bonus xp"

If I'm a component builder and need one ore, is it realistic to expect me to clear an entire field? We miners will take the whole field just for the sake of the clear and because we enjoy mining. There are times I'm sure someone might be building an item and just need that one piece of ore; maybe they have to log and want to finish the item/get ready for a raid that won't wait for them to clear a field/don't have the cargo space needed to properly clear and finish their build. There are many reasons to not clear a field, all valid at the time.

Might I suggest instead of a field clear bonus or rock clear bonus we boost the trade xp for refining? boost the explore xp per rock? This might compensate for cherry picking and accomodate rl situations as well (being in middle of clear and you're needed for a rl emergency/situation that takes you away from game) Perhaps it will help people "share" more and take away the concern about "bonuses" or "this is my field don't mess up my bonus" or I cleared it and got no bonus, not knowing someone had to log out for rl situation halfway through the field; which means neither player gets the bonus and you guys start getting bugged about "ore fields are bugged/broken".

To be honest sometimes it is a bit difficult to see where one field ends and another begins so can be confusing if you're working an area and someone else comes along.

I like the mixed ores in fields, too; it's just like killing a mob they don't always have level specific loot on them ;-). I'm sure it'll get ironed out content wise to be more of the level appropriate with some other levels in it. I'm not against have a few that are pure level x, y, or z, just not a lot of them, that would take some of the fun away ;-)

/I approve this post

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Humm.... i think there's actually quite a bit of level 9 ore. <snip>

Yes may be but it's not as concentrated or as available compared with live.

On average I find between 3-5 rocks containing 9s in a field, more if two fields overlap one another. In live there were dozens of 9s in a field. For me, there are three problems with lvl 9s - the 30 minute spawn timer, the low density of 9s in a field and the scattering of types of 9s across different systems.

I don't have issues with level 8 and below.

It's just 9s that have to become easier.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'll add my two cents in here.

I wonder if everyone here making suggestions is thinking about what happens when this game gets out of testing and goes "live" again? I see a lot of suggestions that are based on the belief that the player base will stay roughly the same once we go live again, and I think that's faulty thinking. Chances are, the numbers that we have now will at the very least double, and likely increase by a factor of ten, once this game is re-released back into the public and everyone is playing a finished game.

Using that logic, the chances of any given mining field being cleared, regardless of how large it is, are pretty high in the more popular mining spots. Even the less-popular mining spots will see a fairly high number of miners, and all because mining brings in a good profit, is fun, will be frequented by those who don't want the competition of the popular spots, and is vital for every builder in the game. I remember playing a miner during live, and while the lowbie spots were usually fairly clear... the highbie spots were camped like mad, and the fact that cherry-picking was common, it didn't matter because there were always those willing to clean up behind those highbies. Easy money for midbie miners, since mobs got cleared by the dozens of highbie miners scrambling to grab that popular asteroid/crystal/gas/whatever. I know... I did it all the time. One of the reasons I never cared about cherry-pickers, because SOMEONE below them is happy to grab what's left over for easy profit.

My point is that the fields will get cleared. The question is how it will be cleared, and by who? Will there be griefers hanging around, letting everyone else clear that field while he holds one asteroid open, then steals the bonus for himself on the last asteroid? Does the field-clearing bonus go to the person who mined the most, in which case clearing an asteroid becomes more important? And how exactly is one person able to clear a field without someone coming along and helping themselves to that field? No matter what happens, someone gets pissed because they "deserve" the bonus and someone else stole it. Multiply that by every mining field, and by one half-hour per respawn. It equals more hassle for mods and devs than they want. You'll have more complaints flooding your mailboxes about that than all of your actual legitimate problems combined.

Personally, I like the asteroid-clearing bonus, but not the field-clearing bonus. When there's more than one miner per field, who's going to get that bonus? If they're not grouped, which is very likely since most miners are in competition with each other, it'll be whoever grabs the last one, right? What happens to the other miner/miners who helped clear that field? They're out in the cold, and if they aren't speed-demon miners or willing to grief other miners, they'll always be out in the cold. Bonus to griefers and people who play all day with no lives! Hurray! :)

However, the asteroid-clearing bonus does all that's required to help clear up the cherry-picking problem. Why not just stick to that? You can't grief that. People are more willing to stop cherry-picking (until they hit L50 explore, anyway). It's a good set-up.

As for more "hidden" minefields, come on... they'll only be hidden until the first excited player gets on the forum and says "Hey, guess what I found! L9 EVERYTHING located at this precise spot, and no one knows about it! I RULE!" Ten minutes later, that "hidden" spot is no longer hidden, and it becomes yet another campground for people to ninja each other on. Think I'm kidding? This game isn't even live yet, and already there are threads here saying "Hey, this is where some great spots are!"

I like the idea of larger minefields and shorter respawn times. World of Warcraft handled their biggest issues of griefing and resource camping by simply making resources much easier to get and much more plentiful. Suddenly, everyone had access to tons of stuff to make their items, improve their item-making businesses, and more gold to buy them than they knew what to do with. They made the game all about the quests and the game-play instead of all about the resource-collection. If I'm reading this forum right, it sounds like that's what most of the players are looking for here, as well.

When I was playing live, I remember very clearly what the biggest complaints were about Earth and Beyond... no PVP (and I hope it stays that way, ENB should be non-PVP. Let EVE do that), not enough content and missions, and the gigantic resource-camping problem that prevented the casual gamer from being able to do much in terms of game-business. Since that pretty much took away sideline businesses from the average player, that left only two things to do in the game... grinding, both trading and combat. People got bored.

Concerning mobs in the mining fields... I hope Mr. Merlin wins his fight to remove or minimize them. Not just because it will make resources easier to get (see above), but because the majority of the mobs protecting those fields are ridiculously powerful considering the average level of player trying to mine it. Bear in mind, I'm taking this from Live, since I haven't been playing the emulator for very long, so my comments are based on those days. Their scanning range is crazy-huge, and somehow manage to see even the lowest signature from a long distance away; they're powerful enough to seriously threaten even Warrior classes, much less the much-weaker mining classes; and just player-wise, it's frustrating as hell to be happily mining away in a field, and suddenly you're one-or-two-shotted by a re-popped mob that either you or someone else had previously cleared. Bye-bye profits, hello exp-debt. And all you wanted to do was do some mining!

Now, if you want to keep the mobs in the fields, how about a random sprinkling? On one day, X number of fields has mob spawn in them; on another day, those mobs disappear and reappear in other fields; the next day, a different set of fields; and so on. It may call for more programming, and I don't know what would be involved in that, but it would still put the mobs in there without taking away from the mining experience. Plus, it will encourage people to move from field to field rather than gravitate to one specific field all the time, since the mobs will naturally discourage miners in that field.

If that's not a good idea, or is too much to implement, how about increasing the time between respawns, maybe doubled or tripled? Maybe limit the mobs to the high-level fields, or those fields that have mission-necessary things? Or simply make the mobs in those fields a nuisance rather than a threat, thus making those fields difficult without being lethal.

So, to summarize, since this thread is about mining and not about content and missions, I'll just say this: make the mining more proliferate, do away with the field bonus, keep the asteroid bonus, and keep up the fight to minimize or do away with mob-protected fields.

Thanks. Hope it was helpful. :)

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I'll add my two cents in here.

I wonder if everyone here making suggestions is thinking about what happens when this game gets out of testing and goes "live" again? I see a lot of suggestions that are based on the belief that the player base will stay roughly the same once we go live again, and I think that's faulty thinking. Chances are, the numbers that we have now will at the very least double, and likely increase by a factor of ten, once this game is re-released back into the public and everyone is playing a finished game.

Using that logic, the chances of any given mining field being cleared, regardless of how large it is, are pretty high in the more popular mining spots. Even the less-popular mining spots will see a fairly high number of miners, and all because mining brings in a good profit, is fun, will be frequented by those who don't want the competition of the popular spots, and is vital for every builder in the game. I remember playing a miner during live, and while the lowbie spots were usually fairly clear... the highbie spots were camped like mad, and the fact that cherry-picking was common, it didn't matter because there were always those willing to clean up behind those highbies. Easy money for midbie miners, since mobs got cleared by the dozens of highbie miners scrambling to grab that popular asteroid/crystal/gas/whatever. I know... I did it all the time. One of the reasons I never cared about cherry-pickers, because SOMEONE below them is happy to grab what's left over for easy profit.

My point is that the fields will get cleared. The question is how it will be cleared, and by who? Will there be griefers hanging around, letting everyone else clear that field while he holds one asteroid open, then steals the bonus for himself on the last asteroid? Does the field-clearing bonus go to the person who mined the most, in which case clearing an asteroid becomes more important? And how exactly is one person able to clear a field without someone coming along and helping themselves to that field? No matter what happens, someone gets pissed because they "deserve" the bonus and someone else stole it. Multiply that by every mining field, and by one half-hour per respawn. It equals more hassle for mods and devs than they want. You'll have more complaints flooding your mailboxes about that than all of your actual legitimate problems combined.

Personally, I like the asteroid-clearing bonus, but not the field-clearing bonus. When there's more than one miner per field, who's going to get that bonus? If they're not grouped, which is very likely since most miners are in competition with each other, it'll be whoever grabs the last one, right? What happens to the other miner/miners who helped clear that field? They're out in the cold, and if they aren't speed-demon miners or willing to grief other miners, they'll always be out in the cold. Bonus to griefers and people who play all day with no lives! Hurray! :P

However, the asteroid-clearing bonus does all that's required to help clear up the cherry-picking problem. Why not just stick to that? You can't grief that. People are more willing to stop cherry-picking (until they hit L50 explore, anyway). It's a good set-up.

As for more "hidden" minefields, come on... they'll only be hidden until the first excited player gets on the forum and says "Hey, guess what I found! L9 EVERYTHING located at this precise spot, and no one knows about it! I RULE!" Ten minutes later, that "hidden" spot is no longer hidden, and it becomes yet another campground for people to ninja each other on. Think I'm kidding? This game isn't even live yet, and already there are threads here saying "Hey, this is where some great spots are!"

I like the idea of larger minefields and shorter respawn times. World of Warcraft handled their biggest issues of griefing and resource camping by simply making resources much easier to get and much more plentiful. Suddenly, everyone had access to tons of stuff to make their items, improve their item-making businesses, and more gold to buy them than they knew what to do with. They made the game all about the quests and the game-play instead of all about the resource-collection. If I'm reading this forum right, it sounds like that's what most of the players are looking for here, as well.

When I was playing live, I remember very clearly what the biggest complaints were about Earth and Beyond... no PVP (and I hope it stays that way, ENB should be non-PVP. Let EVE do that), not enough content and missions, and the gigantic resource-camping problem that prevented the casual gamer from being able to do much in terms of game-business. Since that pretty much took away sideline businesses from the average player, that left only two things to do in the game... grinding, both trading and combat. People got bored.

Concerning mobs in the mining fields... I hope Mr. Merlin wins his fight to remove or minimize them. Not just because it will make resources easier to get (see above), but because the majority of the mobs protecting those fields are ridiculously powerful considering the average level of player trying to mine it. Bear in mind, I'm taking this from Live, since I haven't been playing the emulator for very long, so my comments are based on those days. Their scanning range is crazy-huge, and somehow manage to see even the lowest signature from a long distance away; they're powerful enough to seriously threaten even Warrior classes, much less the much-weaker mining classes; and just player-wise, it's frustrating as hell to be happily mining away in a field, and suddenly you're one-or-two-shotted by a re-popped mob that either you or someone else had previously cleared. Bye-bye profits, hello exp-debt. And all you wanted to do was do some mining!

Now, if you want to keep the mobs in the fields, how about a random sprinkling? On one day, X number of fields has mob spawn in them; on another day, those mobs disappear and reappear in other fields; the next day, a different set of fields; and so on. It may call for more programming, and I don't know what would be involved in that, but it would still put the mobs in there without taking away from the mining experience. Plus, it will encourage people to move from field to field rather than gravitate to one specific field all the time, since the mobs will naturally discourage miners in that field.

If that's not a good idea, or is too much to implement, how about increasing the time between respawns, maybe doubled or tripled? Maybe limit the mobs to the high-level fields, or those fields that have mission-necessary things? Or simply make the mobs in those fields a nuisance rather than a threat, thus making those fields difficult without being lethal.

So, to summarize, since this thread is about mining and not about content and missions, I'll just say this: make the mining more proliferate, do away with the field bonus, keep the asteroid bonus, and keep up the fight to minimize or do away with mob-protected fields.

Thanks. Hope it was helpful. :)

I believe there was a post a while back (can't remember exactly when due to faulty memory circuits) that stated things are being based on current population and can be adjusted as the population grows. Merlin has also posted in other threads his progress on getting the fields into the game. recently we have had hulks put back in, there are still quite a few "markers" around that need the fields put in place.

I'm sure the amounts will be adjusted the same way mobs and things like fishbowl will be as the population changes.

Edited by Dakynos
reduce post size by adding spoiler
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Believe me I am not picking on you, but I just don't want the players to get all "Whoopy Twang" about problems that just are not there. TTYL :-)

Merlin

your da best merl...

oh and I dont know what Whoopy Twang is... but damn im gettin excited :)

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your da best merl...

oh and I dont know what Whoopy Twang is... but damn im gettin excited :)

Hello,

Lol, sorry about that! It was a phrase that my 1st wife used all the time! Whoopy Twang meens to get all upset or freaked out. They use that phrase in the Denver area alot! TTYL :-)

Merlin

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  • 6 months later...
Would be nice to either increase the explore xp on the roids if you say mined the whole roid and not took what you wanted and or if you removed the refining costs of the ores themselves not sure the second is possible seeing as how everyone pays a fee for whatever they build but it would alleviate issues with refining ore if say the cost was lower for a new player.

Increase the cost you are paid for refined ore sometimes its not worth refining an item when its a few credit difference yet it costs you more to refine it than you make back
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i definitely agree that refining costs are pretty high. i don't remember what they were like in live, but I definitely don't remember losing all my money to the refine terminal. (which I have done, twice now)
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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1301120241' post='37195']
i definitely agree that refining costs are pretty high. i don't remember what they were like in live, but I definitely don't remember losing all my money to the refine terminal. (which I have done, twice now)
[/quote]
use TT to sell them.
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[quote name='Celticwarrior' timestamp='1301108561' post='37194']
Would be nice to either increase the explore xp on the roids if you say mined the whole roid and not took what you wanted and or if you removed the refining costs of the ores themselves not sure the second is possible seeing as how everyone pays a fee for whatever they build but it would alleviate issues with refining ore if say the cost was lower for a new player.

Increase the cost you are paid for refined ore sometimes its not worth refining an item when its a few credit difference yet it costs you more to refine it than you make back
[/quote]

You already receive a bonus for clearing an asteroid or a gas cloud.

As to the credits, my JE makes the most credits of any my characters the quickest and easiest.
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Thanks to everyone who is making this a really worth while thread. I LOVE MINING. I'm 150 JE--many players are telling me to go on, do other things. But a few, like me, realize that mining is relaxing. I can be productive in the game and not HAVE to fight.

Absolutely do I agree that valuable fields need tough guardians. Yes! But "sorta" valuable fields and average fields don't. They should re-spawn like they are, quickly, and just be there to ENJOY. Have a cup of coffee, chat with your EnB friends, look at (what I think) is still some of the most beautiful science fiction art ever to have been created on any generation of computer. Thanks for your consideration or my ideas. (And GREAT JOB MERLIN!)
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we had a problem with purely level 9 fields creating level 10 roids which had nothing in them and were glitchy so that's the main reason why there aren't too many purely level 9 fields. I think this bug is fixed though I am unable to check it because the dev server is down. I hope to get more level 9 fields in jenquai space in the next update.
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[quote name='Kenu' timestamp='1301180959' post='37244']
we had a problem with purely level 9 fields creating level 10 roids which had nothing in them and were glitchy so that's the main reason why there aren't too many purely level 9 fields. I think this bug is fixed though I am unable to check it because the dev server is down. I hope to get more level 9 fields in jenquai space in the next update.
[/quote]

Thank you Kenu.
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by the way, what would you guys think about the whole "ore A is only found in A sectors and ore B is only found in B sectors" thing?

pros to this system:
- if you're looking for a certain ore you don't have to mine other ores to clear the asteroid
- you can't sit in one sector and mine every ore of that level
- easier to mine and not fill your inventory

cons to this system:
- frustrating for players with no knowledge of which roid fields are where
- you can't sit in one sector and mine every ore of that level
- makes some ore fields much less desirable (like ones with no grail water)
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[quote name='Jarod' timestamp='1301153422' post='37201']
You already receive a bonus for clearing an asteroid or a gas cloud.

As to the credits, my JE makes the most credits of any my characters the quickest and easiest.
[/quote]

The post i made wasnt to ask or beg for something its was an honest idea as to how to improve the current system with prospecting and refining.

as it stands now im not putting anymore points into prospect because the only profit i seem to make with doing that skill for say 6 hours is to refine negative energy wards the point i was trying to make is as it stands i recieve 45 explore xp for clearing a lvl 4 roid of 3-4 ores when i can spend the same time going and doing a 10 min trade goods run for alot more explore xp as well as trade xp

so yes refining 5 garnets or emeeralds costs 548 per refine yet the vendor buys for 300 per thats a loss and therefore not worth the trouble. as for your je thats awesome but i just came back to the game and am focused on my PS and reliving why i loved this game
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[quote name='Celticwarrior' timestamp='1301279125' post='37476']
The post i made wasnt to ask or beg for something its was an honest idea as to how to improve the current system with prospecting and refining.

as it stands now im not putting anymore points into prospect because the only profit i seem to make with doing that skill for say 6 hours is to refine negative energy wards the point i was trying to make is as it stands i recieve 45 explore xp for clearing a lvl 4 roid of 3-4 ores when i can spend the same time going and doing a 10 min trade goods run for alot more explore xp as well as trade xp

so yes refining 5 garnets or emeeralds costs 548 per refine yet the vendor buys for 300 per thats a loss and therefore not worth the trouble. as for your je thats awesome but i just came back to the game and am focused on my PS and reliving why i loved this game
[/quote]

I'm not sure where you could possibly interpret anything I said as even faintly implying you were begging. I was merely pointing out that - of all of the characters I have - the one that makes the most xp and credits the fastest is my JE. So much so that he tends to finance all of the other chars. Don't know what you are doing differently than me, we all have our own playing styles. Hey, if you succeed at convincing the Dev's to turn up the XP/Credit knob for miners even further, great, just that much more gravy for my JE - but it already seems pretty easy to me.
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Prospecting has become a nightmare for me. I dont do it for a relaxing time, I do it to stripmine fields as fast as possible for exp and cash, which has become rediculously difficult with all the changes to warp since ST3:
~Come out of warp upto 6k or more past our target(roid).
~Passing the target(roid) and manually ending warp only to see my ship do a 180 and warp the other way.
~Come out of warp still going warp speed, slowing down at normal deceleration rate.
~One second delay after exiting warp until it says we're no longer moving. - comfirmed with L1/2 cloak, which now also says still moving for one second after exiting warp.
~Irriducible one second delay between activating/deactivating warp, NOT Warp Charge/Cooldown, but a seperate delay that prevents spamming warp on/off to float items.
~With 1k thrust on a JE/TS, coming to a stop to mine isnt practical without using warp to stop, now that its been updated to how it was in Live where we have to come to a complete stop before being able to prospect.
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[quote name='will' timestamp='1301314648' post='37509']
Prospecting has become a nightmare for me. I dont do it for a relaxing time, I do it to stripmine fields as fast as possible for exp and cash, which has become rediculously difficult with all the changes to warp since ST3:
~Come out of warp upto 6k or more past our target(roid).
~Passing the target(roid) and manually ending warp only to see my ship do a 180 and warp the other way.
~Come out of warp still going warp speed, slowing down at normal deceleration rate.
~One second delay after exiting warp until it says we're no longer moving. - comfirmed with L1/2 cloak, which now also says still moving for one second after exiting warp.
~Irriducible one second delay between activating/deactivating warp, NOT Warp Charge/Cooldown, but a seperate delay that prevents spamming warp on/off to float items.
~With 1k thrust on a JE/TS, coming to a stop to mine isnt practical without using warp to stop, now that its been updated to how it was in Live where we have to come to a complete stop before being able to prospect.
[/quote]

Sounds like you got connection problems! Are you on wireless with someone working a microwave oven nearby, that can be a problem.

I'm about as far away from the server as you can get geographically, on what's recognised as the worst internet in the 1st world (Australia) and I don't see connection issues like this. When I warp to an asteroid I usually stop just before it.

I do agree with the complete stop thing being a bit too sensitive at the moment - I only just changed that to fix a bug where you'd be completely static and still get the 'you must stop to mine' message. I'll try to get the sensitivity reduced a bit as it can be a bit annoying. Having a dud connection doesn't help the issue either.
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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1301357754' post='37557']
Sounds like you got connection problems! Are you on wireless with someone working a microwave oven nearby, that can be a problem.

I'm about as far away from the server as you can get geographically, on what's recognised as the worst internet in the 1st world (Australia) and I don't see connection issues like this. When I warp to an asteroid I usually stop just before it.

[/quote]

I'm sure these arent connection issues, Ive managed to reproduce all of them once I realized what was happening:

~Irriducible one second delay between activating/deactivating warp, NOT Warp Charge/Cooldown, but a seperate delay that prevents spamming warp on/off to float items.
I know this exists, because I abuse this at most grav-wells,
because it's what causes:
~Come out of warp still going warp speed, slowing down at normal deceleration rate.
It's not the delay itself that causes it, but because it shares the same state of 'unable to warp' as trying to warp while targeting something that is too close for warp, or trying to warp while targeting yourself, both of which will also trigger it. However, just being in warp-cooldown does not trigger it.
Its done by double clicking warp, while already in warp, and unable to re-enter warp. You instead are left thrusting at whatever speed you were warping at, while decelerating at the normal rate. Obviously, its great for getting past Grav-wells, if you have enough starting speed to make it through, and currently the only way, until L7 Navigate is fully implemented.

~Come out of warp upto 6k or more past our target(roid).
This has become much more of a problem after the minimum warp distance was lowered to 1k, it would appear the game is having problems warping such small distances without overshooting the target. Back when the minimun warp distance was 4k/5k, I would only pass the target by 1-2k max, not upwards of 6-7k max.
The distance might be related to warp speed, and maybe why there was a warp cap in Live, just a guess though.

~Passing the target(roid) and manually ending warp only to see my ship do a 180 and warp the other way.
Hitting warp at the moment warp ends, will cause you to re-enter warp bypassing the warp cooldown. This existed back in ST3 as well, and was far easier to execute, but now it occurs almost exclusively without trying, or wanting, it to happen.

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1301357754' post='37557']
I do agree with the complete stop thing being a bit too sensitive at the moment - I only just changed that to fix a bug where you'd be completely static and still get the 'you must stop to mine' message. I'll try to get the sensitivity reduced a bit as it can be a bit annoying. Having a dud connection doesn't help the issue either.
[/quote]
Thank you, good to know another bug was being fixed in the process though.
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[quote name='will' timestamp='1301399214' post='37623']
Its done by double clicking warp, while already in warp, and unable to re-enter warp. You instead are left thrusting at whatever speed you were warping at, while decelerating at the normal rate. Obviously, its great for getting past Grav-wells, if you have enough starting speed to make it through, and currently the only way, until L7 Navigate is fully implemented.
[/quote]

ahha! I have seen this too but I wasn't sure why it happened. I'll see if I can reproduce this and hopefully get it fixed.

Maybe the reason I don't see it is because my warp speed isn't that great (around 3000 or so).
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[quote name='will' timestamp='1301399214' post='37623']
~[b]Come out of warp up to 6k or more past our target(roid)[/b].
This has become much more of a problem after the minimum warp distance was lowered to 1k, it would appear the game is having problems warping such small distances without overshooting the target. Back when the minimun warp distance was 4k/5k, I would only pass the target by 1-2k max, not upwards of 6-7k max.
The distance might be related to warp speed, and maybe why there was a warp cap in Live, just a guess though.
[/quote]

I noticed this after my TS gained Max Navigate and warp cap of about 7500, before this i would almost never warp past a roid or target.
Also noticed that I warp into roids more often when usually before I would warp next to it, and also the "minning laser" bug is still there were if u mine inside a roid the game would create an infinate mining laser to nowhere until you docked or gated out of the system.
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