Censorship?

[JavaJimFl]

I was looking for any documentation I could find on the L75 Progen HU mission when I found the locked post about the other group trying to build their own version of the emulator based on an older snapshot of the code this server runs. I read the entire thread with an open mind, but what really got my attention was the way it was abruptly locked. For such a collaborative group effort, I was surprised at how heavy-handed the this emulator's leadership was in it's response.

When I went back and reread the thread, I saw things that really disturbed me. Being a developer myself, I've used a fair number of open source tools and APIs to get the job done. While I don't know for sure if this effort is technically open source anymore, it definitely violates the spirit that started the movement. It was sad to see one senior team member claim the code was still open source while another used the phrase "took our privately-held data" (ironic choice of words; I wonder what EA thinks?). You can't have it both ways.

I liken this whole situation to a group of people finding an abandoned car on the side of the road. They know it belonged to someone else at one time, but it looks like the owner doesn't want it anymore. So what do they do?

1. They pitch in and get it running.
   
2. They travel for bit, then can't agree on where to go next.
   
3. Part of the group becomes weary of that so they swipe the tires and head off to build their own car.
   
4. Another part of the group then decides what's left belongs to them and locks the doors.
   
5. The rest of the group? They're stuck in the backseat.
   

Back to the other thread. Other than the occasional troll, I thought the discourse was generally civil. However, between the two camps, the folks on this side of the fence came off looking much worse in my view. The icing on the cake was when the other side started to make headway in their argument (respectfully IMO), all opinion was effectively censored by locking the thread. Not the way folks who aren't afraid of a little competition would normally act. Actually, it reminds me of the bickering between the Spring and Hibernate projects a few years ago, with this project playing the Hibernate role.

All that said, I'd like to see the two groups come together again. What's been accomplished so far is really amazing, the product of everyone involved. Perhaps they could get together and see if they can apply the same processes that make other open source projects so successful to this one and take some of the egos (on both sides) out of the equation. The project should come first.

[C Del[IS]]

When I said "privately-held data" I was referring to our content database, which is, in no way, open-source, largely because it's not "source", it's a database. I hate to say this, but this is becoming infinitely and overwhelmingly infuriating. I don't know how many times I can say that we were wronged and betrayed by members of our staff, and they are certainly no better than we. We don't censor; the thread was locked because it was obvious that there was no consensus to be reached, no headway to be made on either side. In fact, we had the chance to remove the thread before anyone had even read it, but we decided not to in the interest of transparency. We just want to let it go. We aren't going to meddle in their business, nor will they in ours. I have little energy left with which to argue these points ad nauseam. Let us please drop the subject.

[Tyran]

When I said "privately-held data" I was referring to our content database, which is, in no way, open-source, largely because it's not "source", it's a database. I hate to say this, but this is becoming infinitely and overwhelmingly infuriating. I don't know how many times I can say that we were wronged and betrayed by members of our staff, and they are certainly no better than we. We don't censor; the thread was locked because it was obvious that there was no consensus to be reached, no headway to be made on either side. In fact, we had the chance to remove the thread before anyone had even read it, but we decided not to in the interest of transparency. We just want to let it go. We aren't going to meddle in their business, nor will they in ours. I have little energy left with which to argue these points ad nauseam. Let us please drop the subject.

You may have misunderstood what the OP is saying. The Admin said that thread is locked because it was getting out of hand.

However, the thread was not really getting out of hand, as Azasha was being very civil and polite. Azasha mentioned something from the other project only to answer a question from another developer.

This is why it looks like censorship and that is the OP's point.

[C Del[IS]]

You may have misunderstood what the OP is saying. The Admin said that thread is locked because it was getting out of hand.

However, the thread was not really getting out of hand, as Azasha was being very civil and polite. Azasha mentioned something from the other project only to answer a question from another developer.

This is why it looks like censorship and that is the OP's point.

If the thread was getting out of hand, Azasha was surely not the cause of it. She has been polite and civil, as you said, in communications with Net7. I don't believe the thread was getting out of hand, but I do think it was for the best that the thread was locked. I think it could only have grown more confrontational from that point, largely due to third parties beyond the scope of Net7's and the other project's staff. I really think it's best for our two projects to accept our differences and try to coexist peaceably and independently, as too much animosity remains between us to allow for collaboration.

In response to your last comment, Nillus: what we fear is a fracturing of the community. Our community is already quite small, and to have ourselves split up between two separate projects would hurt gameplay. I understand completely how this can look like an ego-fueled debate from the outside, but the situation is a great deal more complex. I've always said that what I care about the most is EnB, and I could never bring myself to put infantile conflicts of ego before its resurrection on my priority list.

I hope that answer is of some satisfaction to someone out there...

[Kenu [CDEV]]

sorry to say, I don't think the two emulators will ever come together. The origin of the other emulator from our perspective was not to make a more traditional EnB. It was to make an EnB where the ex-devs were in control. A rival meant to defeat the emulator they could not be a part of.

I for one think the only reason the other emulator claims to support the "classic" EnB is because they thought that would be the way for them to drag the most number of players away from us in order to run us out of town. One of the devs who started the other emulator was actually very involved in adding new "non-classic" EnB content while they were on our team. For him to leave the project because he wanted a more classic EnB just doesn't make sense to me.

Let's think about the goal of this project: To recreate EnB.

Well, what is EnB and how do we recreate it?

First of all we have to redevelop the game, but we also have to recreate the community. EnB would not be EnB without its many players in a single game universe. This is why fracturing the community is a threat to us. The universe is a cold place that needs players to make it lively. These are the grounds that EnB was designed on. Splitting this community would damage what we all know as EnB. Spliting the players would also slow the development side of EnB. We need players to test the game and make bug reports for our developers to fix. We need donations from these players to keep both of our servers up to allow our developers to make changes on the dev server and test them before we upload them on to the play server. We need this same server to run our forums, our teamspeak, and our backups. Without you guys we can't do all that we've been doing. Keeping our community unified benefits EnB as a whole.

*hopes he didn't start a flame war*

[Jamosite]

Here is a simple solution

you like this one stay here

you like there's .... Go there

its the right of the people who developed this version of the game to keep there work to themselves. its there choice to branch out and give what

they have done away. All I can tell you is there is room on the Internet for both to exist. I get the feeling some people on the forum are plants

trying to get this staff to release code and database info , when they do not get there way, they attack personally ( not in this post but in previous)

I am happy to play this game, as i'm sure many others are. if you are not attempting to "borrow" everything and start your own EnB server then drop

it and continue to play.

[JavaJimFl]

When I said "privately-held data" I was referring to our content database, which is, in no way, open-source, largely because it's not "source", it's a database. I hate to say this, but this is becoming infinitely and overwhelmingly infuriating. I don't know how many times I can say that we were wronged and betrayed by members of our staff, and they are certainly no better than we. We don't censor; the thread was locked because it was obvious that there was no consensus to be reached, no headway to be made on either side. In fact, we had the chance to remove the thread before anyone had even read it, but we decided not to in the interest of transparency. We just want to let it go. We aren't going to meddle in their business, nor will they in ours. I have little energy left with which to argue these points ad nauseam. Let us please drop the subject.

Unless you or the group that locked down the database created all that content, it's not "yours" to do with as you wish. Period. Just because someone contributes to an open source project doesn't mean they automatically release their work into the public domain. Furthermore, this project simply doesn't meet the definition of open source. I've gotta tell you, had I worked on the stuff you've locked away and built on, I'd be pretty ticked off about now.

When I first came to this site I found a mission statement. I don't remember exactly what it said, but I know I liked it because it reflected the best qualities of the folks I played alongside of in Live. I can't find that mission statement now. Can you point me to it? Actually, can you just clearly state here and now what flavor of license you're working under? Because between the two groups, I'll personally go with the one that's the most transparent.

For the record, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I'm just tired of hearing the words "them" and "us". SourceForge is full of dead projects that began their demise this way and I don't want to see that happen here.

[Mimir[IS]]

IMO I don’t really think that there should be a terrible issue with two (or more) servers. Yes, right now there are not enough players to fill a single server, but perhaps one day there may be.

Remember in live there was more than one?

What I find interesting is that both sides are pointing fingers at the other saying “they are the dark side”. And the funny part they both say that they are the ONE that is trying to get EnB back to its glory days. Is this common ground that may be worked on to get the two groups back together?

Find a way to open a dialogue instead of sniping each other in the forums and blogs, getting together will only help us all.

[JavaJimFl]

sorry to say, I don't think the two emulators will ever come together. The origin of the other emulator from our perspective was not to make a more traditional EnB. It was to make an EnB where the ex-devs were in control. A rival meant to defeat the emulator they could not be a part of.

I for one think the only reason the other emulator claims to support the "classic" EnB is because they thought that would be the way for them to drag the most number of players away from us in order to run us out of town. One of the devs who started the other emulator was actually very involved in adding new "non-classic" EnB content while they were on our team. For him to leave the project because he wanted a more classic EnB just doesn't make sense to me.

Let's think about the goal of this project: To recreate EnB.

Well, what is EnB and how do we recreate it?

First of all we have to redevelop the game, but we also have to recreate the community. EnB would not be EnB without its many players in a single game universe. This is why fracturing the community is a threat to us. The universe is a cold place that needs players to make it lively. These are the grounds that EnB was designed on. Splitting this community would damage what we all know as EnB. Spliting the players would also slow the development side of EnB. We need players to test the game and make bug reports for our developers to fix. We need donations from these players to keep both of our servers up to allow our developers to make changes on the dev server and test them before we upload them on to the play server. We need this same server to run our forums, our teamspeak, and our backups. Without you guys we can't do all that we've been doing. Keeping our community unified benefits EnB as a whole.

*hopes he didn't start a flame war*

I agree with you Kenu, but the player base is already contracting. That tells me something isn't going well in general. I can't speak for others, but once again, the whole reason I even ventured out here is that I can't find any information about how the L75 Progen HU is supposed to work. That's just sad. How can you test something (and try to break it) if you don't even know the 'happy path' behavior? I spent an hour flying around last night hoping I would magically trigger something so I could move forward. The New Player's channel was no real help because no one else really knew how the mission was supposed to work either. I even tried looking for the documentation for the mission (yes, RTFM), which doesn't seem to exist. Based on what I read in chat, my situation is not unusual. The staff isn't making it easy to for us to perform our role as testers while we play the game. It's terribly difficult to determine if a bug has been reported, much less to see how many are outstanding and how they may be linked together. I can see how casual players would lose interest if it's so hard to contribute.

If the other emulator solves these kind of problems, they're naturally going to draw players to their version (all other things being basically equal). Maybe that's how it should be, I don't know. It's a shame how focused the two groups are on code and content. I wish they would compare development processes too.

[bondct]

well let me start by saying I love everyone... I am on good terms with all three groups... and for abit, I was playing on all three servers... in the end I came back here cuz the other 2 servers usually had less than 10 people online at a time (one of them between 6-10, and the other between 0-4)... so unless that has significantly changed, I do not see how they are effecting the player base here...

one of the things that drew me to the other servers was that there was talk of bringing back enb to exactly the way it was in live sunset and that pwipes would (and maybe I misunderstood that part) be nonexsistent... well there is talk of pending pwipes on there forum last time I was there... and with no people and a small team work was a little too slow for me... sorry I know that is selfish...

as for censorship... I have run many forums, and while its great to have 100% open conversations uneditted or censored all the time... that is not really practical... EVERY... did I say EVERY forum censors from time to time... its a judgement call in the best interest of the forum and to avoid internet fights... because NO ONE EVER WINS an internet fight... peoples balls get as big as water tanks on the net since no one knows who or where you are... and its really just ugly...

this forum rarely censors or edits imo (in my opinion) compared to other forums... we have a good group here and they do a good job with mgmt... the post in question was a tough one... but tbh, I would have cut it off much earlier than they did... its a no win thread that just leads to fights

so +1 forum team imo

[Tyran]

Mayhaps there should be talks, combined efforts are ofcourse best...

Anyway, the one that implements leashed jenquai slaves that walk on all fours in stations wins it for me...

[r8rsfans75]

the whole reason I even ventured out here is that I can't find any information about how the L75 Progen HU is supposed to work. That's just sad. How can you test something (and try to break it) if you don't even know the 'happy path' behavior?

Progen has always been my favorite class going back to the days of Live, but I'm sorry to say you are preaching to the choir and most of this type of critique seems to be falling on deaf ears. If you dig back far enough in the forums, you will find a post from me about the progen lvl 50 HU bonus mission that never got answered/replied to/commented on from anyone.

The amount of work that was done to create these missions had to be pretty extensive, plus the fact that the work is being done during someone's personal time for no pay is greatly appreciated, but when the stuff doesn't work as intended and the perception is that the person who created the issues doesn't seem to have any accountability (except to say "it worked on the dev server"), is a little bit of a put off.

I also work as a programmer, so I know all about when code goes right in testing and wrong in development. I am committed to helping this project though, I will not stop playing until someone shuts off the servers for good and I also will not stop playing the progen toons unless they become completely unplayable. When I have some extra money I also plan on become a donator, regardless of whether the project is completely open source because I know the intent is to get this game to a playable phase that is fun for everyone.

/stepOffSoapBox

[Praetorius [GM]]

point of fact, when the other group chose to start a new team, this was not the problem, when a specific member of their team continued to harass, berate and make public comments, about members of this emulator, and then insult this whole team with comments, like eat your hearts out and make it incomfortable for either team, to keep channels open to work together, this team continued to leave the original source open and available, but new content and storyline and software code was held within the team to be tested and before it was moved from dev server to live, this was done so that transition to our main server would be smooth, and this information would be released on a bi monthly date, rather then as peicemeal and untested. it is still the enb emulators, goal to make the game open source and free for the public. We just do not want to be dragged into debates that occur daily, their is too much work being tested and developed, to waste time responding to repetitive forum discussions. fact the originator of the other enb team is no longer with the other team as they found problems with his leadership and goals and daily comments. we wish the other teams trying to bring earth and beyond back to life all the best, and would gladly work within a civilized communication, without all the drama.

[Azasha]

sorry to say, I don't think the two emulators will ever come together. The origin of the other emulator from our perspective was not to make a more traditional EnB. It was to make an EnB where the ex-devs were in control. A rival meant to defeat the emulator they could not be a part of.

I for one think the only reason the other emulator claims to support the "classic" EnB is because they thought that would be the way for them to drag the most number of players away from us in order to run us out of town. One of the devs who started the other emulator was actually very involved in adding new "non-classic" EnB content while they were on our team. For him to leave the project because he wanted a more classic EnB just doesn't make sense to me.

Let's think about the goal of this project: To recreate EnB.

Well, what is EnB and how do we recreate it?

First of all we have to redevelop the game, but we also have to recreate the community. EnB would not be EnB without its many players in a single game universe. This is why fracturing the community is a threat to us. The universe is a cold place that needs players to make it lively. These are the grounds that EnB was designed on. Splitting this community would damage what we all know as EnB. Spliting the players would also slow the development side of EnB. We need players to test the game and make bug reports for our developers to fix. We need donations from these players to keep both of our servers up to allow our developers to make changes on the dev server and test them before we upload them on to the play server. We need this same server to run our forums, our teamspeak, and our backups. Without you guys we can't do all that we've been doing. Keeping our community unified benefits EnB as a whole.

*hopes he didn't start a flame war*

I don't have time to reply to this whole thread right now if it is still open maybe.

One thing I am going to comment on because it severely bothers me. The finger pointing and stating by DEV's or members over here about what our intentions are. Saying that we only exist because we weren't allowed to play in the sandbox is not true and leaves a bad taste in anyone's mouth.

Most of the team on our project wasn't even part of the team over here. I myself am very interested in getting the game back to the way it was in live and any new content being added the same way it was in live. I know that many of the other team members on our project feel the very exact way. This is not just a "ruse" as someone put it and is one of the reasons for the proposed joint installer and launcher to connect to both servers. To keep the community together (which is a large part of Earth and Beyond) and allow them without too many problems to wake up in the morning and say "Do I want to play this version or that version today?".

I personally would appreciate being shown the same respect I and the current staff on our project show Net7. If you look at the source code we have released no where have we removed Net7's name and even in our new drafting of our terms of use, disclosure and credits we are drafting in credits to Net7. We are not trying to "take credit" for someone else's work. We are doing exactly what Open Source is designed to do. We are building a project off a slightly different ideal based on the original project.

I will say that withholding any information needed to run a project the same way the original authors run it is not against open source licensing and it's not against the law. It is against the ideal and spirit that Open Source was based on.

(Edited for typo error)

Edited June 29, 2010 by Azasha

[Jamosite]

TO the Dev's here.

its admirable . . . . if you would like to work hard then release it.

I am down for open source as much as the next person..

I like that most people like to make things to be freely distributed to the world but understand the work that will be

involved. I suggest you work on this and it will be a constant work in progress so don't waste your time

entertaining people's notions that you HAVE to release what you have done.

I know very little of the split you guys are referring to but i do watch some chats about people who try to gain info

on how to make there own server by guilting people here in various ways. So this post isn't about your team vs

there team its more about what I've seen

To ease the conversation I will post a wise quote

"You laugh because I'm different.

I laugh cause I just farted! " ~Jamosite

Thank you

[Azasha]

point of fact, when the other group chose to start a new team, this was not the problem, when a specific member of their team continued to harass, berate and make public comments, about members of this emulator, and then insult this whole team with comments, like eat your hearts out and make it incomfortable for either team, to keep channels open to work together, this team continued to leave the original source open and available, but new content and storyline and software code was held within the team to be tested and before it was moved from dev server to live, this was done so that transition to our main server would be smooth, and this information would be released on a bi monthly date, rather then as peicemeal and untested. it is still the enb emulators, goal to make the game open source and free for the public. We just do not want to be dragged into debates that occur daily, their is too much work being tested and developed, to waste time responding to repetitive forum discussions. fact the originator of the other enb team is no longer with the other team as they found problems with his leadership and goals and daily comments. we wish the other teams trying to bring earth and beyond back to life all the best, and would gladly work within a civilized communication, without all the drama.

The short on this. Which is some of the reasons that team member is no longer on our team.

[Riia [LDEV]]

Hi

Let me make a short post (I hope it's short) on this subject.

Some of the people who started the Enb Classic group were part of the Net-7 team. They left of their own accord and not nicely, leaving a number of posts attacking the Net-7 team. They then split again into two different Enb Classic groups both claiming the Net-7 code and database as their own and splitting the community in to three.

So, the question is, why would we work with a group or groups that did not want to work with us the first time around, have stated how negatively they felt about us and have stated that they want to take EnB in a different direction from where we are going.

As the Net-7 team why would we set ourselves up for more conflict.

Riia

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Unless you or the group that locked down the database created all that content, it's not "yours" to do with as you wish. Period. Just because someone contributes to an open source project doesn't mean they automatically release their work into the public domain. Furthermore, this project simply doesn't meet the definition of open source. I've gotta tell you, had I worked on the stuff you've locked away and built on, I'd be pretty ticked off about now.

When I first came to this site I found a mission statement. I don't remember exactly what it said, but I know I liked it because it reflected the best qualities of the folks I played alongside of in Live. I can't find that mission statement now. Can you point me to it? Actually, can you just clearly state here and now what flavor of license you're working under? Because between the two groups, I'll personally go with the one that's the most transparent.

For the record, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I'm just tired of hearing the words "them" and "us". SourceForge is full of dead projects that began their demise this way and I don't want to see that happen here.

Certainly there is an explanation at the top of every c++ source file with links included. (To summarize, it's a creative commons license, share alike, attribution, and no $ to be made if you take it and modify it)

In regards to that content, with the exception of around 8-10 of our 400+ missions, it is all created by our staff. I guess we could release those few missions, but that would be kind of a stunted database, besides what other OS project (if you have an example) releases their full development database to the public? I have personally never downloaded anything open source that included a full database, usually just enough test data to get it running and display the features, and at that usually things like "lorem ipsum". If you're not familiar with that, do a search.

When we're ready to release the content database it's going to be in six month intervals following our release of that same content. This ensures that players who have stayed loyal and stick with the original community have it first and other servers can have it later if they don't want to create their own branch of the story as some invariably do.

[seekeronos]

Anyway, the one that implements leashed jenquai slaves that walk on all fours in stations wins it for me...

Sounds a bit like Second Life (there be some serious freaky-deaky to be stumbled accross if you aren't minding where you are going)

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

I was looking for any documentation I could find on the L75 Progen HU mission when I found [.....]

The original live HU 75 mission was the same for all races in the game. You paid and got your hull upgraded. You didn't have to do any missions for it. Same with HU 100 and HU 135. No missions. Went, upgraded your hull and went on your merry way. potentially because the original live game was rushed out anyway (if it had been completed, they'd have been the intended 9 classes and a different load-out of skill seen).

Of course you got no bonus missions also.

The way the Progen Missions are currently being done is that you still can choose to do it like live, you can go and pay for your hull and then go on your merry way. However, it seems there is an opportunity here to do missions for those who want to; so thats' why there's an option to do missions too.

Also, with regards the Brimstone Ballista and Crimson Force Barrier missions currently in the Progen Mission Line. These missions were not in Live. They were originally put in as a kind of sweetener by myself to assist Progen players whose skills were not effective at all. Should there be a reset (next Stress Test or P-Wipe, and I don't know of any of this), then these missions will be removed.

My apologies ahead of time for this, but ideally the CFB and BB should drop by the mobs that drop them (once implemented). It also may be having an artificial effect on the effectiveness of the Progen Race in the game, with these items being commonly available.

At least I've let you know of 3 missions ( BB / BB-ammo / CFB) that stem from Hull Upgrades that were not in the game in Live that won't be in the game next player-to-zero time. In the balance of things, Terrans are not getting uber similar mission drops and so arn't Jenquai; so now with skills working (including combat trance that did not work at all 9 months ago), these missions of mine are on 'Borrowed Time'.

Its not a nerf, its a realignment of missions and will only occur once everyone is reset to zero (so there's no unfair advantage). These do remain possibilities for sweeteners in the future though!

[Kenu [CDEV]]

I don't have time to reply to this whole thread right now if it is still open maybe.

One thing I am going to comment on because it severely bothers me. The finger pointing and stating by DEV's or members over here about what our intentions are. Saying that we only exist because we weren't allowed to play in the sandbox is not true and leaves a bad taste in anyone's mouth.

Most of the team on our project wasn't even part of the team over here. I myself am very interested in getting the game back to the way it was in live and any new content being added the same way it was in live. I know that many of the other team members on our project feel the very exact way. This is not just a "ruse" as someone put it and is one of the reasons for the proposed joint installer and launcher to connect to both servers. To keep the community together (which is a large part of Earth and Beyond) and allow them without too many problems to wake up in the morning and say "Do I want to play this version or that version today?".

I personally would appreciate being shown the same respect I and the current staff on our project show Net7. If you look at the source code we have released no where have we removed Net7's name and even in our new drafting of our terms of use, disclosure and credits we are drafting in credits to Net7. We are not trying to "take credit" for someone else's work. We are doing exactly what Open Source is designed to do. We are building a project off a slightly different ideal based on the original project.

I will say that withholding any information needed to run a project the same way the original authors run it is not against open source licensing and it's not against the law. It is against the ideal and spirit that Open Source was based on.

(Edited for typo error)

you may have different intentions than the people who started your project. You and them are not one in the same, but from our point of view those people left because they were not getting along with the team or were getting removed from the team. The reason you exist now might be different from the reason you began, but to us the foundation of your project is of bad intentions for us. We don't mean to insult you, but you have to understand why would have problems working with your team.

[seekeronos]

besides what other OS project (if you have an example) releases their full development database to the public? I have personally never downloaded anything open source that included a full database, usually just enough test data to get it running and display the features, and at that usually things like "lorem ipsum". If you're not familiar with that, do a search.

Spot on.

If anything, releases in Open Source are typically done in stages, where the are CVS or Subversion builds/nightly builds which are "bleeding edge", but very very very buggy, thence to "beta builds" which are somewhat less buggy, but still likely to be problematic... thence to "release candidates" which are nearly release ready, and available for download for "open beta" or stress testing.

Not every development effort makes these release candidates or "nightly builds" widely available (releasing them to developers who have been vetted by the control team).

This appears to be more or less the practice the Net-7 team is following; when source code is published, and the database dump is made available, it (hopefully) be useful as something that can be readily stood up, and yes, a little out of date from the current production data.

But... it will (or should, provided the people setting up their local EnB emulator service) work out of the box.

As for the development code... well, it is (Net-7's) choice to withhold that from public scrutiny, since it is still being worked on, by that particular dev team.

In short, they are doing nothing wrong, either by the spirit or the letter of open source licensing that I can tell.

Earlier I had mentioned that I was somewhat uncomfortable with the practice as my understanding of it was a bit unclear, but following Kyp's and CDel's explanations, it makes better sense for them to hold their development code as they have been doing.

And Azasha, I appreciate your candor in sharing with us that any particularly troublesome devs on your project were disciplined/removed from leadership.

It does little good to retain people whose drive is carrying on with personal aught, and not for the advancement of the project

[Zinlu]

It does little good to retain people whose drive is carrying on with personal aught, and not for the advancement of the project

you may have different intentions than the people who started your project.

Don't be upset because roses have thorns, be thankful that thorns have roses.

The game is playable again after a 4+ year absence, can we just play together nicely?

[Suricata79[IS]]

Why was this thread even made? Generaly speaking, if a thread is closed, its closed for a reason, starting another thread that just continue the exact same debate is never going to end well.

I'm not really that concerned about splinter projects to be honest, as long as they pull thier own weight, what I don't like with some emulator projects (this is in general and not directed at the other EnB ones) is when you get people pulling the source code and updates and then claiming they made it themselves. I think thats what some of the devs are concerned about, having people create thier own servers and then claim they made the code themselves, this is somewhat prevented by keeping the database private, it also prevents players data mining it to find all where all the mobs spawn, when they spawn and what they drop as well as find hidden quests, which would make it very hard for the developers to add easter eggs to the game.

To be honest though, alot of this is kind of mute, since all the teams will slowly drift apart as they code things differently, making the code from the different emulators incompatible over time.

[Azasha]

Why was this thread even made? Generaly speaking, if a thread is closed, its closed for a reason, starting another thread that just continue the exact same debate is never going to end well.

I'm not really that concerned about splinter projects to be honest, as long as they pull thier own weight, what I don't like with some emulator projects (this is in general and not directed at the other EnB ones) is when you get people pulling the source code and updates and then claiming they made it themselves. I think thats what some of the devs are concerned about, having people create thier own servers and then claim they made the code themselves, this is somewhat prevented by keeping the database private, it also prevents players data mining it to find all where all the mobs spawn, when they spawn and what they drop as well as find hidden quests, which would make it very hard for the developers to add easter eggs to the game.

To be honest though, alot of this is kind of mute, since all the teams will slowly drift apart as they code things differently, making the code from the different emulators incompatible over time.

Well... hopefully this will make you smile and not frown. I completely understand about people claiming work as their own which is why I made it a point to set aside a folder for a completely unedited version of your guys database and source code. This way there can be a reference if anyone ever wants to know just what parts of our project came from Net7. I'm very big on giving credit where it's due.