Another enb emulator?

[spacegrrrl]

We don't want to "win" anything; we just want to revive Earth & Beyond.

The person who took our code, our content, our work, had very little to do with its creation. I try to keep a cool head, but this is really testing my patience. If you're convinced Net-7 is some kind of evil code-hoarding collection of conspiring insiders, then I'm not going to bash my head against a wall to argue.

Here is a crazy way to prove me wrong. Check in the current stable tree to the SVN. No head bashing required. Bring back the API reference Wiki. Add back the "mission statement" that the project once had on its website committing to this being an "open" project. I've long since given up on the idea of the content database every really being shared again, but I still have a crazy optomistic hope the server source will somehow become open again.

Spacegrrrl

[Azasha]

Ok well I've pretty much been the "play nice" sort of person. I hang out on Net7's IRC and help people there when no one from Net7 answers, which is most of the time, to get on Net7's server when in reality I could be grabbing people but you know I have a bit more respect than that. Obviously others don't. I will post this here if it is deleted or modified I will be posting it on our forums.

I am part of the Administration team for "the other project". I'm not here to advertise and I won't be posting any links. What I don't appreciate is the bashing going on with no actual evidence. I have been very respectful of Net7's forums and servers and rarely breath a word of "our team's project" over here when I do it's to someone who already knows about it and usually in game pm. However, at this point Net7 by allowing this thread has authorized that discussion so I'd like to set a few things straight.

First and foremost we will be keeping things open source and this is one thing that developers from Net7 have approached us about in a negative manner. So much so that the idea we had to possibly keep the community at large together was completely shot down. We approached Net7, specifically David and Tienbau, explained that our goals for the server were different from their's in code and content and that we would like to have a single installer and launcher that would allow the players to log into either server. The best I can say is Net7 doesn't see any benefit in this right now and instead tried to make an ultimatum to us of "do this and we'll think about it". There are many other ways we could have gone about getting players and I personally think we have been very respectful and open minded in working towards what would be best for the community.

The accusations that the code was stolen are unfounded, anything open source is exactly that. Wikipedia states the following:

An open source license is a copyright license for computer software that makes the source code available for everyone to use. This allows end users to review and modify the source code for their own customization and/or troubleshooting needs. Open source licenses are also commonly free, allowing for modification, redistribution, and commercial use without having to pay the original author. Some open source licenses only permit modification of the source code for personal use or only permit non-commercial redistribution. All such licenses usually have additional restrictions such as a requirement to preserve the name of the authors and a copyright statement within the code. One popular set of free open source software licenses are those approved by the Open Source Initiative (OSI) based on their Open Source Definition (OSD).

From my understanding the Open Source License this code was published under allows modification and redistribution of modified code.

We are not collecting donations for "other people's work" all donations have been collected with the understanding that they go towards the development goals we have set for our team. We do have a shortage of donations but we will do what is necessary to keep the project going. I doubt Net7 or whoever started over here started with the big cash support they have now. Rarely does any project start with ideal conditions.

I realize people are probably going to bash me for posting this *shrug* I have a bit thicker skin than that. I also realize this very well might get deleted as stated above I'll just post it on our forums if that is the case. I welcome any and all questions which have the intent of finding answers and not just put out there to start a flame war.

[C Del[IS]]

Ok well I've pretty much been the "play nice" sort of person.

I am part of the Administration team for "the other project". I'm not here to advertise and I won't be posting any links. What I don't appreciate is the bashing going on with no actual evidence. I have been very respectful of Net7's forums and servers and rarely breath a word of "our team's project" over here when I do it's to someone who already knows about it and usually in game pm.

We appreciate that. As much as I am peeved at the whole situation, I will give you that. I respect your restraint in this respect.

First and foremost we will be keeping things open source and this is one thing that developers from Net7 have approached us about in a negative manner. So much so that the idea we had to possibly keep the community at large together was completely shot down. We approached Net7, specifically David and Tienbau, explained that our goals for the server were different from their's in code and content and that we would like to have a single installer and launcher that would allow the players to log into either server. The best I can say is Net7 doesn't see any benefit in this right now and instead tried to make an ultimatum to us of "do this and we'll think about it". There are many other ways we could have gone about getting players and I personally think we have been very respectful and open minded in working towards what would be best for the community.

The accusations that the code was stolen are unfounded, anything open source is exactly that.

From my understanding the Open Source License this code was published under allows modification and redistribution of modified code.

What you asked us to do was to put your server in our launcher, which effectively would have been an endorsement on our end. Considering the hostile way in which your project split from ours, you should not have expected us to agree to this.

We're not making a legal argument here. What you're saying is that you took our lunch from the fridge, but it was ok because it didn't have "Net-7" written on it; was it illegal? No. Was it wrong? Sure was; and that is what I'm concerned with. It is my opinion that your project completely violated the spirit of the community when you absconded with our database (which is not subject to any open-source-type license) and used the publicly available source code to establish your own public server, something we have always stated was not to be done.

We are not collecting donations for "other people's work" all donations have been collected with the understanding that they go towards the development goals we have set for our team. We do have a shortage of donations but we will do what is necessary to keep the project going. I doubt Net7 or whoever started over here started with the big cash support they have now. Rarely does any project start with ideal conditions.

I realize people are probably going to bash me for posting this *shrug* I have a bit thicker skin than that. I also realize this very well might get deleted as stated above I'll just post it on our forums if that is the case. I welcome any and all questions which have the intent of finding answers and not just put out there to start a flame war.

I realize you are not directly asking for donations for work done here at Net-7, but you are leveraging the operation of your server, a product of our work, for donations, which highly find wholly distasteful.

I apologize if I am being harsh, but many of us here, myself included, felt immensely betrayed and violated when your project splintered from ours.

All that said, I'm not going to stoop so low as to bash you, nor flame you, nor will anyone here delete your posts.

[seekeronos]

I think my basic questions have been satisfactorily answered:

1. The EnB Client and assets (closed source/proprietary: IP still belongs to EA)

2. The Net-7 Launcher (open source)

3a. The server code for EnB-Emulator ... (open source per David, but in practice, heavily controlled by the project until at a stage it can be released, at a time and manner yet to be determined)

3b. Database schema (closed source/proprietary per CDel, IP belongs to Net-7 Entertainment)

I won't say that I completely agree with the rationale behind 3a, but I'd say it is within the bounds of most open source licenses, provided that a version of the source code is available.

The database in 3b represents a great deal of work, and I won't pretend to know how that was originally licensed, if at all, for other parties hoping to build an emulator, as it exists apart from the server code. In the context of preventing people from cheating, there is some degree of wisdom in keeping that separate as a class of intellectual property from the server code.

[spacegrrrl]

We appreciate that. As much as I am peeved at the whole situation, I will give you that. I respect your restraint in this respect.

What you asked us to do was to put your server in our launcher, which effectively would have been an endorsement on our end. Considering the hostile way in which your project split from ours, you should not have expected us to agree to this.

We're not making a legal argument here. What you're saying is that you took our lunch from the fridge, but it was ok because it didn't have "Net-7" written on it; was it illegal? No. Was it wrong? Sure was; and that is what I'm concerned with. It is my opinion that your project completely violated the spirit of the community when you absconded with our database (which is not subject to any open-source-type license) and used the publicly available source code to establish your own public server, something we have always stated was not to be done.

I realize you are not directly asking for donations for work done here at Net-7, but you are leveraging the operation of your server, a product of our work, for donations, which highly find wholly distasteful.

I apologize if I am being harsh, but many of us here, myself included, felt immensely betrayed and violated when your project splintered from ours.

All that said, I'm not going to stoop so low as to bash you, nor flame you, nor will anyone here delete your posts.

C Del, how do you justify "stealing" EA's work product. Using your logic you have no right to any of the assets of E&B. EA or Westwood certainly never agreed to let you use the result of the considerable efforts of Westwood. This was set up as an open source project from its inception. When I set up a computer as part of the pool to help break the packet encryption I never thought I was doing it so YOU would "own" anything. Somehow over time this team has decided they "own" things they honestly don't.

I just gave $50 to the other team and will continue to do at least as much once a month for some time to come. They seem to understand what the original intention of this project was. The initial design documents that saw a future where lots of folks ran their own servers, developed their own content and players could seamlessly enjoy an entire community of servers and unique shared content. That was something exciting. This project now has given up trying to be the game that once was and is trying to be something "better". Not sure any of this team has the background to make that likely to happen. At least the other project remains true to the original vision of getting it back to "lights off" first before inventing something new.

I'm sure I've started the ban hammer in motion, and as I've said before, I applaud the efforts of this team to get thing running as well as they are. I also say I totally disagree with the efforts to make this a closed private effort, I don't agree with the focus of new content before the replication of old content. Most folks here don't care about any of this, they are playing a not bad game for free and "meta issues" revolving around these discussions are likely viewed as sour grapes from disfunctionals whiners. Fair enough.

Let's see over time which approach pays off in the end. I think comments in this thread helped me decide on the horse I'll bet on. Open will win, no doubt about it. I'm so sure I've voted with my wallet. I'll soon start contributing to their server source. Can I get you to promise you won't ever use any of my code since the other team is committed to keeping their project open?

Good luck, stay private, keep inventing a new if similar game, lets compare notes in a year, I believe in open source and the power of many, even if not always going in the same direction over a few folks worried about "splintering" and "losing control", I'll use the Linux as an example to make my case,

Spacegrrrl

[seekeronos]

We don't want splinter projects all over the place being started by people who just want personal control over development. This would lead to the community fracturing into smaller pieces, which would drop the amount of active players, harming the playing experience. We already have a very limited number of active players and less players there are, the less people there are to interact with, the less donations there are, the less hardware we can afford, and so on, and so forth. Splitting up the community harms the community.

As regarding this, this project may differ somewhat from other open-source projects in that at present, there are probably around 80-120 unique people -- many, if not most of whom multi-box characters (to arrive at that 355/500 server capacity).

Unlike something the scale of a Linux Distribution that has corporate sponsorship (Ubuntu/Canonical Ltd.) or a particularly popular application (such as the GIMP) with dozens if not hundreds of people developing it and multiple thousands of users... EnB Emulator would ill-afford being splintered and forked many different ways.

Ubuntu (itself a fork of Debian) forked into Kubuntu (KDE), Xubuntu (XCFE) Edubuntu, and at least half a dozen regional and cultural variants; other open source apps have succeeded with forking, with some forks merging back into one body of code, and often many more forks dying off.

EnB Emulator with its sub-500 user base (between this project and that other group combined)

would not survive another substantial rift caused by a fork.

It is a credit to this project's success as well as its heritage from those dark days not long after EA Sunsetted EnB that this project keeps plugging along, while the other one appears to be in some financial straits.

[Davidr99 [Admin]]

C Del, how do you justify "stealing" EA's work product. Using your logic you have no right to any of the assets of E&B. EA or Westwood certainly never agreed to let you use the result of the considerable efforts of Westwood. This was set up as an open source project from its inception. When I set up a computer as part of the pool to help break the packet encryption I never thought I was doing it so YOU would "own" anything. Somehow over time this team has decided they "own" things they honestly don't.

I just gave $50 to the other team and will continue to do at least as much once a month for some time to come. They seem to understand what the original intention of this project was. The initial design documents that saw a future where lots of folks ran their own servers, developed their own content and players could seamlessly enjoy an entire community of servers and unique shared content. That was something exciting. This project now has given up trying to be the game that once was and is trying to be something "better". Not sure any of this team has the background to make that likely to happen. At least the other project remains true to the original vision of getting it back to "lights off" first before inventing something new.

I'm sure I've started the ban hammer in motion, and as I've said before, I applaud the efforts of this team to get thing running as well as they are. I also say I totally disagree with the efforts to make this a closed private effort, I don't agree with the focus of new content before the replication of old content. Most folks here don't care about any of this, they are playing a not bad game for free and "meta issues" revolving around these discussions are likely viewed as sour grapes from disfunctionals whiners. Fair enough.

Let's see over time which approach pays off in the end. I think comments in this thread helped me decide on the horse I'll bet on. Open will win, no doubt about it. I'm so sure I've voted with my wallet. I'll soon start contributing to their server source. Can I get you to promise you won't ever use any of my code since the other team is committed to keeping their project open?

Good luck, stay private, keep inventing a new if similar game, lets compare notes in a year, I believe in open source and the power of many, even if not always going in the same direction over a few folks worried about "splintering" and "losing control", I'll use the Linux as an example to make my case,

Spacegrrrl

Then why not stay over there? Why come over here and make big posts and do nothing more then complain? We are not holding you to stay here.

[Tienbau]

Let's see over time which approach pays off in the end. I think comments in this thread helped me decide on the horse I'll bet on. Open will win, no doubt about it. I'm so sure I've voted with my wallet. I'll soon start contributing to their server source. Can I get you to promise you won't ever use any of my code since the other team is committed to keeping their project open?

Good luck, stay private, keep inventing a new if similar game, lets compare notes in a year, I believe in open source and the power of many, even if not always going in the same direction over a few folks worried about "splintering" and "losing control", I'll use the Linux as an example to make my case,

That's fair. I wish the other team the best of luck, although I gather they are keeping their source code fully closed - only publishing what's in the SVN here but with a little tweak to fix the last checkin I made which was a little bit broken. I read about the mysterious 'inside talent secrets' and so on, so if you're hoping to see their source I wouldn't hold your breath, unless you're in their dev team.

EDIT: sorry I am out of date - I was only going on the original postings, I see they are changed now to open source.

[Azasha]

That's fair. I wish the other team the best of luck, although I gather they are keeping their source code fully closed - only publishing what's in the SVN here but with a little tweak to fix the last checkin I made which was a little bit broken. I read about the mysterious 'inside talent secrets' and so on, so if you're hoping to see their source I wouldn't hold your breath, unless you're in their dev team.

I'm sorry that you see it that way Tienbau. Right now we haven't done much development so there isn't much to share. So, what have we been doing?

Getting programmers on board and familiar with the game. They can't code something they don't know what it is.

Organizing the SVN and removing code which is no longer used and will not be used by us.

Integrating our SVN with our Bug Tracking system before we even start using it.

The code will be available and so far everything we have done has been available. So I'm sorry to be posting updates over here but it's the only explanation to your accusation that we are "closed source". Setting up a long term goal project with systems that hopefully won't need much modification as the project grows doesn't happen overnight.

[Davidr99 [Admin]]

This topic is getting out of hand. It is now locked.