Shield Leech

[Akela]

I would like to suggest that the JD skill Reactor Leech be switched with the JE skill Shield Leech. I say this because the JE shield Leech skill causes any mob hit with it to agro on the JE. At the highest levels the JE Shield Leech skill hits all mobs in a 3k area. JEs with the weakest shields and hulls should not have a skill that causes multiple mobs to agro on them. Most of the time I have my JE grouped with my JD, both OL95 CL25. When I activate Shield Leech on a mob it will agro on my JE that has 2 level 4 beams and ignore my JD that has 4 level 5 beams. Needless to say this is not good.

Akela

[Suricata79[IS]]

They only aggro all the mobs if they use the 'group' energy leech version, they can always use the solo leech to start with and then kite the mob away from the other ones.

[Lars[IS]]

I would like to suggest that the JD skill Reactor Leech be switched with the JE skill Shield Leech. I say this because the JE shield Leech skill causes any mob hit with it to agro on the JE. At the highest levels the JE Shield Leech skill hits all mobs in a 3k area. JEs with the weakest shields and hulls should not have a skill that causes multiple mobs to agro on them. Most of the time I have my JE grouped with my JD, both OL95 CL25. When I activate Shield Leech on a mob it will agro on my JE that has 2 level 4 beams and ignore my JD that has 4 level 5 beams. Needless to say this is not good.

Akela

Hello,

Ok, to the contary of what most players think, JE's do more DPS then most other races due to their shield leach. Here is the correct way to use a JE in combat when in a group. 1st cloak your je and set them to follow the mob you are attacking. Then start attacking the mob with your jd and make sure you get the aggro with your jd and have the mob follow your jd for about 3 to 4 k. Now at this point your jr should be behind the mob, uncloak, fire and then use your shield leach on the mob. Now if all go's well the mob should still be aggroed on your jd, if not just quickly recloak your je and when the mob go's back to aggroing your jd repeat process with your je. Your je's shields are no more weak then any other race and make sure you have the proper deflects on any toon you do combat with. At the moment alot of the mobs are hitting with explosive damage so make sure you have atleast that deflect. With some practis you will start killing mob's that are 5 to 10 lvl's above your cl. I do it all the time, but my JE has always been an effective combat toon if you do it right. Hope this helps. TTYL :-)

Merlin

[Akela]

They only aggro all the mobs if they use the 'group' energy leech version, they can always use the solo leech to start with and then kite the mob away from the other ones.

So you agree with me JE should not have grooup shield leech. Energy leech would be more in line with the JEs expertise, energy conservation.

Akela

[Akela]

Hello,

Ok, to the contary of what most players think, JE's do more DPS then most other races due to their shield leach. Here is the correct way to use a JE in combat when in a group. 1st cloak your je and set them to follow the mob you are attacking. Then start attacking the mob with your jd and make sure you get the aggro with your jd and have the mob follow your jd for about 3 to 4 k. Now at this point your jr should be behind the mob, uncloak, fire and then use your shield leach on the mob. Now if all go's well the mob should still be aggroed on your jd, if not just quickly recloak your je and when the mob go's back to aggroing your jd repeat process with your je. Your je's shields are no more weak then any other race and make sure you have the proper deflects on any toon you do combat with. At the moment alot of the mobs are hitting with explosive damage so make sure you have atleast that deflect. With some practis you will start killing mob's that are 5 to 10 lvl's above your cl. I do it all the time, but my JE has always been an effective combat toon if you do it right. Hope this helps. TTYL :-)

Merlin

The point I’m trying to make is a JE with 2 lvl 4 beams should not be able to pull aggro from a JD with 4 lvl 5 beams.

Akela

[C Del[IS]]

The point I’m trying to make is a JE with 2 lvl 4 beams should not be able to pull aggro from a JD with 4 lvl 5 beams.

Akela

That's probably more an issue with the aggroing system than the skill itself. I don't think we're going to change the JE's skill set for the simple fact that we don't want to change things from how they were in live if not necessary. Besides, isn't the whole point of this skill to give the JE a little bit of a combat advantage to compensate for their inherent horrendous combat abilities?

Please try to bear with us, the server is still heavily under development and aggro is one of those things that isn't really working quite as intended yet.

[Terrell [BT]]

Having played both a JE and JW in Live, I would say that Shield Leech is the better of the 2 skills. Sheild Leech in Emulator is also better than it was in Live because the cooldown timer is only 5 seconds as opposed to the 40 second timer there was in Live. One must use discretion when using AOE skills, especially with a JE.

[Seeker]

One must use discretion when using AOE skills

So True!

[Akela]

Having played both a JE and JW in Live, I would say that Shield Leech is the better of the 2 skills. Sheild Leech in Emulator is also better than it was in Live because the cooldown timer is only 5 seconds as opposed to the 40 second timer there was in Live. One must use discretion when using AOE skills, especially with a JE.

The question is why does a non combat race have the same ability as the strongest combat race? Giving shield leech to the JD would be more in line with his abilities, giving energy leech to the JE would be more in line with his.

Akela

[Terrell [BT]]

The question is why does a non combat race have the same ability as the strongest combat race? Giving shield leech to the JD would be more in line with his abilities, giving energy leech to the JE would be more in line with his.

Akela

Over time the TW and PW are more effective as warriors than the JW. Sheild Leech works just fine on the JE since it takes Shield power from the enemy, and turns it into reactor power for the JE. On a JW Shield Leech would be overpowered. JW already hits the hardest when it comes to short term damage. 5 L9 beams (slow refire beams), 3 or 4 plasma, L9 Chim, and Combat Cloak bonus means very high damage. JW doesn't really need Shield Leech on top of that, but if energy leech works then it means that the JW doesn't have to spend as much time recharging his reactor afterwards. JW really doesn't need more firepower, if anything JW needs more energy efficency.

[Akela]

Over time the TW and PW are more effective as warriors than the JW. Sheild Leech works just fine on the JE since it takes Shield power from the enemy, and turns it into reactor power for the JE. On a JW Shield Leech would be overpowered. JW already hits the hardest when it comes to short term damage. 5 L9 beams (slow refire beams), 3 or 4 plasma, L9 Chim, and Combat Cloak bonus means very high damage. JW doesn't really need Shield Leech on top of that, but if energy leech works then it means that the JW doesn't have to spend as much time recharging his reactor afterwards. JW really doesn't need more firepower, if anything JW needs more energy efficency.

JD has energy leech which does not make the mobs aggro and recharges reactors so the reactor recharge is really the same for both shield and energy leech. Giving the JD shield leech and the DPS gain would not hurt or unbalance the warrior classes because like you said over time the TW and PW do more damage where as the JE is not a damage dealing class. Yet my JE with 2 lvl 4 beams can out DPS my JD with 4 lvl 5 beams. Every time I use shield leech the mobs aggro on my JE. This should not happen. If the JE had energy leech he would still be providing the reactor recharge that shield leech does but would not pull aggro. This is more in line with the JEs DPS, hull size, skill set and group bonus.

Akela

[garblesoup]

So you agree with me JE should not have grooup shield leech. Energy leech would be more in line with the JEs expertise, energy conservation.

Akela

I would think it's like any group or area skill - the user should choose carefully the situations in which they use it.

If the group includes a TT any aggro a JE might have gotten will quickly become moot as the first time that TT does an area shield recharge the mob will quickly find a new best buddy to go after.

[garblesoup]

JD has energy leech which does not make the mobs aggro

Akela

Hmmm, I don't believe that's true. If I get home in time tonight I'll take my JD out and verify this, though.

[Terrell [BT]]

JD has energy leech which does not make the mobs aggro and recharges reactors so the reactor recharge is really the same for both shield and energy leech. Giving the JD shield leech and the DPS gain would not hurt or unbalance the warrior classes because like you said over time the TW and PW do more damage where as the JE is not a damage dealing class. Yet my JE with 2 lvl 4 beams can out DPS my JD with 4 lvl 5 beams. Every time I use shield leech the mobs aggro on my JE. This should not happen. If the JE had energy leech he would still be providing the reactor recharge that shield leech does but would not pull aggro. This is more in line with the JEs DPS, hull size, skill set and group bonus.

Akela

Yes, the PW and TW do more damage, over time, than the JW, because the JW has to recharge his shields & reactor after the fight. The PW doesn't rely on activatable skills and devices as much as the JW (nor does the TW) and both of them are significantly tougher in terms of damage resistance so they can fight longer. (so long as their reactors hold out)

JE provides reactor recharge with shield leech, as well as L7 E-shield (reflects damage back for all non-energy attacks, and converts some incoming, non-energy damage to reactor power), and has devices where they can transfer reactor energy to group mates. JE should not use area shield leech in most situations, and they should be subject to aggro whenever they use a skill to drain a mob, whether it's shield or devices. Given that the Jenquai are the energy efficency race (best reactors), the JW getting energy leech and the JT having reactor optimization fit as all 3 classes have an ability to buff their groupmates reactors, without being overpowered. JE

I'm curious to know more about your JW, including his OL and level breakdown compared to your JE (and how you've spent JW's skill points). My reason being that you mention use of AOE Shield Leech, which a JE must have at least EL35 to use (L6 is the lowest version that affects groups of enemies). It could simply be that your JE is higher in his key level of expierence than your JW, and your JW will catch up and pass your JE when you have a comparable level of CL on your JW, good beams, Combat Cloak, and L6 critical targeting. It might be better to compare your JE and JW if they have similiar overall levels & balance of levels (as well as similar quality of equipment). It's also important to a JW that you spend 21 points on the skill Critical Targeting, as it's important to your ability to inflict damage, along wiht Combat Cloak. If you're using Plasma beams on your JW, you also want the highest level of Chimaera device you can equip.

I would disagree that any class should be able to use a skill against an enemy and not draw aggro. As as JE it's important to be careful in how you fight, and which skills you use at what time. If you do anything to the mob, other than compulsory contemplation, the mob should aggro on you.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Terrell

[Akela]

Yes, the PW and TW do more damage, over time, than the JW, because the JW has to recharge his shields & reactor after the fight. The PW doesn't rely on activatable skills and devices as much as the JW (nor does the TW) and both of them are significantly tougher in terms of damage resistance so they can fight longer. (so long as their reactors hold out)

JE provides reactor recharge with shield leech, as well as L7 E-shield (reflects damage back for all non-energy attacks, and converts some incoming, non-energy damage to reactor power), and has devices where they can transfer reactor energy to group mates. JE should not use area shield leech in most situations, and they should be subject to aggro whenever they use a skill to drain a mob, whether it's shield or devices. Given that the Jenquai are the energy efficency race (best reactors), the JW getting energy leech and the JT having reactor optimization fit as all 3 classes have an ability to buff their groupmates reactors, without being overpowered. JE

I'm curious to know more about your JW, including his OL and level breakdown compared to your JE (and how you've spent JW's skill points). My reason being that you mention use of AOE Shield Leech, which a JE must have at least EL35 to use (L6 is the lowest version that affects groups of enemies). It could simply be that your JE is higher in his key level of expierence than your JW, and your JW will catch up and pass your JE when you have a comparable level of CL on your JW, good beams, Combat Cloak, and L6 critical targeting. It might be better to compare your JE and JW if they have similiar overall levels & balance of levels (as well as similar quality of equipment). It's also important to a JW that you spend 21 points on the skill Critical Targeting, as it's important to your ability to inflict damage, along wiht Combat Cloak. If you're using Plasma beams on your JW, you also want the highest level of Chimaera device you can equip.

I would disagree that any class should be able to use a skill against an enemy and not draw aggro. As as JE it's important to be careful in how you fight, and which skills you use at what time. If you do anything to the mob, other than compulsory contemplation, the mob should aggro on you.

You say a JE should not use group shield leech in most situations and I agree. The question then becomes why does the JE have it if he can't use it? The skill is to overpowered for the JE class and hull.

I play my JW and JE in tandem so they are both OL97. The JW has CL of 26 the JE 24, JW 4 LV5 beams with L4 or 5 Crit. JE 1 LV5 and 1 LV4 beam as of last night. Both have combat cloak with the same shield and engines. I've played this game since the original beta so it's not like I don't know how to play a JE.

Sure when you are playing solo skills should draw aggro but when in a group unless the group is all JEs the JE should not be able to draw aggro from a warrior with twice the beams and critical targeting.

Akela

[Terrell [BT]]

You say a JE should not use group shield leech in most situations and I agree. The question then becomes why does the JE have it if he can't use it? The skill is to overpowered for the JE class and hull.

I play my JW and JE in tandem so they are both OL97. The JW has CL of 26 the JE 24, JW 4 LV5 beams with L4 or 5 Crit. JE 1 LV5 and 1 LV4 beam as of last night. Both have combat cloak with the same shield and engines. I've played this game since the original beta so it's not like I don't know how to play a JE.

Sure when you are playing solo skills should draw aggro but when in a group unless the group is all JEs the JE should not be able to draw aggro from a warrior with twice the beams and critical targeting.

Akela

Comes down to the player's discretion when to use group shield leech. Simply because you can do something in game, doesn't mean it's the wisest thing to do in any particular situation (kinda no point in making choices if you're not allowed to make bad ones as well as good ones). After all you can go to Cooper anytime you want, but if you're a low level player, there's a pretty good chance you're going to die, unless you can avoid the fish ever seeing you and getting within firing range. However the game should not prohibit you from going to a high level area when your level is too low. Discretion is advised.

You didn't mention your JE's EL, which would be important as to which level of Shield Leech you can use, since most JE skills are EL based (Only Beams, Projectiles, Builds & Techs are not). If you're using group Shield Leech (L6+) you have to have an EL of at least 35, which would probably explain why you're doing more damage than a JW with CL26, and Crit 5. When your toons reach 150, your JW will easily outdamage your JE, when equipped with comparable caliber equipment. Don't forget that eventually you will have mobs that resist Shield Leech, (as well as other skills/devices) it's not guaranteed damage, you will also have some mobs where you wouldn't want to get close enough to use Shield Leech. In addition Shield Leech has no effect on a mob's Hull, when you're fighting ship mobs, while the JW's critical targeting skill works fine against both. (Remember mobs aren't up to what they should be yet).

Shield Leech is something that the JE gets to mitigate the fact that they have poor shields, weak hull, short range beams, (most of which are energy) and few weapon mounts.

I would disagree there as well, since if you're a Trader and you fire off a Shield Recharge or Hull Patch, in a group, particularily an AOE version of the skill, the Trader will pull plenty of aggro off of the warriors, even though the warriors have significantly more firepower than the TT or JT. The PW or TW in the group should probably try using their Enrage skill to pull aggro back to them.

[Akela]

Comes down to the player's discretion when to use group shield leech. Simply because you can do something in game, doesn't mean it's the wisest thing to do in any particular situation (kinda no point in making choices if you're not allowed to make bad ones as well as good ones). After all you can go to Cooper anytime you want, but if you're a low level player, there's a pretty good chance you're going to die, unless you can avoid the fish ever seeing you and getting within firing range. However the game should not prohibit you from going to a high level area when your level is too low. Discretion is advised.

You didn't mention your JE's EL, which would be important as to which level of Shield Leech you can use, since most JE skills are EL based (Only Beams, Projectiles, Builds & Techs are not). If you're using group Shield Leech (L6+) you have to have an EL of at least 35, which would probably explain why you're doing more damage than a JW with CL26, and Crit 5. When your toons reach 150, your JW will easily outdamage your JE, when equipped with comparable caliber equipment. Don't forget that eventually you will have mobs that resist Shield Leech, (as well as other skills/devices) it's not guaranteed damage, you will also have some mobs where you wouldn't want to get close enough to use Shield Leech. In addition Shield Leech has no effect on a mob's Hull, when you're fighting ship mobs, while the JW's critical targeting skill works fine against both. (Remember mobs aren't up to what they should be yet).

Shield Leech is something that the JE gets to mitigate the fact that they have poor shields, weak hull, short range beams, (most of which are energy) and few weapon mounts.

I would disagree there as well, since if you're a Trader and you fire off a Shield Recharge or Hull Patch, in a group, particularily an AOE version of the skill, the Trader will pull plenty of aggro off of the warriors, even though the warriors have significantly more firepower than the TT or JT. The PW or TW in the group should probably try using their Enrage skill to pull aggro back to them.

Sounds to me like you are saying the wisest thing for a JE to do is not put points into shield leech. Again I agree, now the question is what do we do about it? I think my suggestion of swapping the JW energy leech skill with the JE shield leech skill is a very doable and wise modification. Energy leech is more in line with the JE skills as shield leech is more in line with JW skills.

Big difference between and TT and JE like apples and oranges really. TT has 2 repair skills that counter mob aggro where as the JE can jump start himself after he unwisely uses shield leech.

Akela

[Tyran]

The question then becomes why does the JE have it if he can't use it?

the server is still heavily under development and aggro is one of those things that isn't really working quite as intended yet.

You had your answer before you asked it but you keep going.

Sounds like you are a JD disguised as a JE with some personal interests at stake here

I think for this action that at least one weapon slot needs to be removed from the JD as a form of reprisal.

[Terrell [BT]]

Sounds to me like you are saying the wisest thing for a JE to do is not put points into shield leech. Again I agree, now the question is what do we do about it? I think my suggestion of swapping the JW energy leech skill with the JE shield leech skill is a very doable and wise modification. Energy leech is more in line with the JE skills as shield leech is more in line with JW skills.

Big difference between and TT and JE like apples and oranges really. TT has 2 repair skills that counter mob aggro where as the JE can jump start himself after he unwisely uses shield leech.

Akela

I'm saying that if you can't take on the mobs that are likely to get hit, all at once, or don't have any backup, you might want to consider using L5 rather than L6+. If you can take the aggro, or you have some backup, consider the higher levels. Having a higher level of the skill, than you're using, should mean more damage, than if you were using the same level, but didn't spend the points for a higher level.

For dealing with mob aggro, JE has Navigate (running away skill), Fold Space (teleport yourself or teleport your enemy away), Cloak (most enemies cannot see cloaked), most of the time JE will also be harder to detect than TT (lower sig). FS can be used as an offensive or defensive skill, if you have L3 Fold, same with L5 cloak, and Navigate is primarily a defensive skill).

[Yuritau]

There's nothing wrong with the JE and JD skill lists. Switching these two skills would make the JE useless in combat and the JD too effective. to put it simply: It ain't broke, stop trying to fix it.

[kickx87]

You say a JE should not use group shield leech in most situations and I agree. The question then becomes why does the JE have it if he can't use it?

A few scenarios for using group shield leech:

Faction farming. Perhaps you're trying to raise, say, Red Dragon faction to gain entrance to QAR - find an area with lots of low level Chavez to kill, and pop group shield leech with reckless abandon. Follow with one or two hits with your lasers and finish them off. In a nutshell: group shield leech allows the JE to 'keep the pace' with other classes during the faction grind.

Another situation: Say you're in a group with a couple tanks, (or a raid group) and a number of mobs have been pulled to where several of them are being taken down at the same time and being tanked by more than one player. Perhaps halfway through killing adds B and C, everyone jumps on mob A to help finish it off. By using group shield leech, you can effectively negate the shield recharge on B and C, ensuring no effort or firepower was wasted in the initial damage done to these mobs.

Energy leech would be more in line with the JEs expertise, energy conservation.

I'd have to disagree with you on this. While it's true that Jenquai in general have the best reactors and therefore the most reactor power, and item bonuses like Beam Energy Conservation exist, I see the JE's expertise as being energy conversion, not conservation. Our Antlia devices convert groupmate's shield power to reactor power. Our Enviro Shield converts weapon damage into reactor energy. We can even convert our own Jenquai-made reactor energy directly into a Progen-made reactor (well, once our Phoenix devices are unbugged heh). So to me, it's perfectly perfect for us to have shield leech instead of the plain-vanilla energy leech.

"Heck, anyone with a straw can steal reactor energy, right?!" - Jenquai scientist, powering up an Explorer-class vessel

Cheers,

Kohr