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Proposal for BBW and Paramis Gates


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Everyone has been enjoying the unfactioned status of the pirate gates whilst the Devs have been fixing the faction bugs... and most of us inwardly dread that day when the Devs announce that the gates will be reverting back to permanent factioned status, meaning we will have to grind faction once again (or go the lonnnnng way around for that lovely Somerled-FPO trade run...)

I'd like to propose that the gates be kept "open" at a cost.

Pirates, after all... are pirates... and what better way to ply their trade than to prey upon people who want to take the shortcut through their space?

The Gates are Green... if you got the greenback$, guns, or the goods.

Around each gate into BBW and Paramis, extend a grav well that spans a 10km radius* from the center of the gate that players have to navigate through to get to the gate. This grav well would force players to avoid (cloak/stealth tactics/low sig) lurking RDs or Talons, engage them in combat, or pay a toll in terms of either trade goods or credits.

If you do NOT have positive (over zero) RD faction, and you are intercepted by the RDs:

  • You will receive a flashing message that you will need to open in 5 seconds or you will be attacked by the RD that "detected" you.
  • If you open the message, the dialog will give you the option of either paying them 2 units of trade goods, or 5,000 credits, or fighting your way through.
  • If you ignore the message, or choose the "fight!" option, all un-engaged RDs patrolling nearby will link aggro with the RD that stopped you, and move toward you to join the attack.
  • Paying the toll (in either trade goods or cash) will allow you to proceed through the gates unhindered.

To avoid excessive loss of inventory through the gates or undue harm, you could also purchase one of two "Certificates of Tribute" from Drostan McClure at the Charon Cloister after speaking to Kaitlya Meenan (sp? - this would be offered before the "Charon Monster Tail" mission).

The "Certificate of Tribute" or would cost 50,000 credits and would be good for 100** transits through any pirate gate or about 25 round-trip trade runs along the FPO-Somerled route.

A "Certificate of Great Tribute" would cost 250,000 credits and would be good for 600** transits through any pirate gate (or about 150 FPO-Somerled runs)

Having either of these certificates in your hold (not vault) would allow you to pass through the gates completely unmolested.

The "gate check" would only apply to traffic crossing from free space into BBW/Paramis, or going outbound from Pirate space to free space.

Traffic moving from gates within BBW/Paramis/Sho'Do'Kan Nebula to each other would not be tolled, with the reason being that if you have made it into Pirate space, there's no particular reason to burn The Dragon's ammo on a (presumably) fellow pirate.

Of course, not *ALL* pirates are so collegial... just ask the Chavez or the Wandering L50 pirates roaming about Paramis :)

Finally, if you have the shields or guns to press your way through the gates, then go for it. It's not like there are huge turrets guarding the gate or anything...

* Most gates seem to have a 5km activation radius, so this means you would have to run a 5km gauntlet!

** Counters could be tracked as a data field bound to the item that decrements each time it passes through the Odin Rex-Paramis gate, or through any of the four gates into BBW from Inverness/Grissom/Xipe Totec/Muspelheim. Alternatively, the certificates could be a time-delimited item (1 week and four weeks of RD-free travel, perhaps? ) if linking a GUID from a certificate and decrementing it on specific gates is too difficult)

An "invalid pass" would yield a computer message to the player "ALERT! Invalid pass has been presented. Alerting Tong Patrols..."

*** To make this a threat to even CL30-40 players, providing a higher level of RD security would be needed. Parking a pair of L46 Ah Kung carriers, with a squadron of 10+ Dai Dai Lo Advanced Red Dragons flying cover would probably be sufficient to patrol the gravity wells.

RATIONALE:

- High risk/reward: the fastest (and riskiest) way to trade levels for most people is the FPO-Somerled run through BBW.

- Faction farming: some of the best RD faction farming will be the drones at the various training navs in BBW. An organized group would probably with a tank and healer will have best results

- This would also give an impetus toward fixing group Negotiate (encouraging people to group for the FPO-Somerled trade runs, as well as adding survivability while "running the gauntlet".

- Some classes will have certain advantages they can use to get through the "gauntlet" (Jenquai by traveling cloaked, Terrans -- especially Scouts - by speeding thru the grav well, and Progens by having thicker hulls/shields and standoff firepower).

- Level Appropriate: Hulls under OL50 probably would not survive getting love-tapped by the Ah Kung carrier or more than a few hits from the DDL fighters; they are probably better off doing the Spice Run (Prasad-Somer) or the Poison-Meat run (VT-FPO).

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I think that paying your way through should also gain you faction so that eventually if you buy your way in you will reach a point where you wont have too... also once you have postitive faction where you would be able to have green gates you need a way... maybe a device that deactivates the grav well...

I mean it would sux to gain faction the normal way and then have to deal with grav wells...

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I like this idea, would make things a bit more interesting for those without faction. Not sure how hard it would be to set it all up, I think the devs don't have the tools yet for all those scripted encounters. I remember in the early days of Live, the RDs would set up grav well "toll" stops in various sectors. You either payed up or they opened fire. Was always scary when you were a newbie lvling up your first toon lol.

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Wouldn't Jenquai or groups with a Jen be able to pretty much bypass the well with high levels of Fold Space and directional [group] teleport?

I do like the 'toll road' idea though.

Edited by Burman
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Wouldn't Jenquai or groups with a Jen be able to pretty much bypass the well with high levels of Fold Space and directional [group] teleport?

I do like the 'toll road' idea though.

JW only class that gets L7 Fold Space, JE/JT only get L5. It's not very likely that a JW with Area Directional Teleport (maxed Fold Space) would stlll be doing trade runs, or jobs, due to it requiring Explore Level 45, and the skill points beyond L3 Fold Space being better used elsewhere. Though I could see a group wanting to hire a well past 150 JW to help them do their trade runs, I really don't see what's in it for the JW to agree.

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I think that paying your way through should also gain you faction so that eventually if you buy your way in you will reach a point where you wont have too... also once you have postitive faction where you would be able to have green gates you need a way... maybe a device that deactivates the grav well...

I mean it would sux to gain faction the normal way and then have to deal with grav wells...

Good thought - perhaps there'd be a way to correlate green gate faction with a conditional grav well?

Of course, I can cover 5km in about 10sec on my TS, and even faster if I have my combat speed gear in.

OR...

Make a deeper, 15-20km well, with a set of factioned jump pads (think of the Chavez jump pads in Jotunheim, or the gate to DCO, or the Shinwa guarded grav well in ABB....) particular to Inverness and Muspelheim.

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'If' there were to be any changes, I would rather have the RD gates closed, but lower the faction requirement to open them, maybe to neutral, this would mean a grind still, but not as horrid as in live, this would mean low levels couldn't abuse the shortcut and opening the sector is rewarding to players that put the effort in. QAR however, would need decent faction to board, so if a player really puts the effort in, they can get on the station and buy those hard to get items there. I'm not sure if that would be a decent compromise?

NB: This is just an idea been thrown around, it isn't nessacerily something that is going to be done or happen.

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'If' there were to be any changes, I would rather have the RD gates closed, but lower the faction requirement to open them, maybe to neutral, this would mean a grind still, but not as horrid as in live, this would mean low levels couldn't abuse the shortcut and opening the sector is rewarding to players that put the effort in. QAR however, would need decent faction to board, so if a player really puts the effort in, they can get on the station and buy those hard to get items there. I'm not sure if that would be a decent compromise?

NB: This is just an idea been thrown around, it isn't nessacerily something that is going to be done or happen.

I think it's pretty good. If faction works as Live did, then the RDs turn yellow at -1999, and in Live you needed +2000 to use the gates. So if one could enter BBW at -1999, but couldn't enter QAR until +2000 that would be nice. Perhaps there could be an NPC in the lobby, something like Drostan McClure on Charon Cloister that requires you to do a mission to use, but the mission requires you to have +3500 RD. After completing the mission, you can buy some equipment from him as well, provided you keep your faction at or above +3500.

I'd always thought that for the amount of effort it took to get into BBW, that the vendors should have better selection than they did.

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I had an idea awhile ago for a faction unlock system for RD space don't know if it's any good but I'll throw it in here. All the numbers are arbitrary just using them to help illustrate my point.

Basically my idea is to have gates and stations in RD space unlock incrementally starting with the BBW gates (at let's say 0 faction) followed by QAR at 1000, then the Paramis gates at 2000, Paramis Station at 3000. The way I see it working is that up until high levels all most players really want is access to the trade shortcut BBW provides, when they get higher and start hunting there then QAR makes for a convienient place to re-arm and repair, later they'll want access to Paramis for GoBB and the nice returns farming Controller drones brings but at first they'll still have to go back to QAR to reload/ sell drops etc giving them an incentive to continue to gain faction until they can unlock the utility of Paramis station. Assuming that the Sho'da'kan Nebula is intended to become a playable sector at some point this could extend to that at 4000 and so on.

On top of this you could also make final requirements for each step, say having a RD carrier sitting outside each station which gives you a mission at the required faction level (nothing too long or difficult say a 5 step mission that doesn't require you to fly all across the galaxy) to finally allow you to enter the base and for the gates I'd suggest an obnoxious RD Gatemaster who demands a one off payment to unlock the gates for you (don't know if that's possible to do).

I guess what I'm really saying is that it shouldn't be just a one or two step process to go from hated by the RD's to completely trusted and allowed free reign, they're pirates and it fits that they'd only slowly allow you access to their sectors/ bases and be out to get something off you at every turn. From the utility perspective it gives players a reason to keep going out to get more faction while not giving them everything in one go or putting rewards so far out of reach that they just wont bother. I'd also suggest the starting RD faction be closer to 0 than it is currently since this system would allow you to slowly give players more access to RD space than the big lump you would recieve it in under the current system once the gates are faction controlled again.

Ultimately I think that players would be happier with faction grinding under this system because instead of a huge faction gain being required to access some content you can exploit and a bunch of content you maybe can't (thinking especially of lower level players wanting trade run access but not having any use for QAR or Paramis station or the mobs in BBW and Paramis), they can instead unlock the content that they can use in smaller increments without reducing the overall amount of faction leveling ultimately required to unlock all the content.

Sorry if I repeated myself in there took me awhile to write :D

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QAR however, would need decent faction to board, so if a player really puts the effort in, they can get on the station and buy those hard to get items there.

No offense please dont take this the wrong way, but this statement to me, makes no sense at all... I mean think about it... Lets say that I want a L9 Diamond Scale but have -9999 Rd Faction and look at some scenarios...

[Guild] Avani: Can someone puhlez pick me up a L9 Diamond Scale from QAR to analyze. Thanks :D (*note, most guildies would pick it up and not even take money from me for it and as a matter of fact, I think that is how I originally did get that recipie in live).

or

[Market] Avani: WTB L9 Diamond Scale Analyzable - Paying 1 mil plus cost of shield for anyone that will run to QAR for me and pick it up :)

and for those who think that the somer-fenris run is such a sploit not to leave the gates open... let me ask this question, cuz i'm not really sure of the answer (never timed it)...

Wouldnt you do Somer-Pras up until TL35 min (TL40 with negotiate) anyway? So assuming a modicum of balanced leveling, you are at least over L100 (TL35) before you would even think of bbw gating to fenris (at which point I am told jobs are more TL XP)... am I wrong here?

and if your gonna say macro people will sploit it... why would a macro person care, they are not sitting in front of their pc anyway so it should make no diff to them??? so imho while the gates where originally cool in live... I vote just leave em open and create some other reason to get RD rep

Edited by Avani
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I agree with Avani that getting into QAR to buy items isn't much of an issue, but the way I see it that's the least useful service the base provides. Docking repairs your hull and the structure of your items, gives access to the vault, NPCs for missions, manufacturing terminals (especially useful for ammo), analyze terminals, vendors to sell loot. Basically it means you don't have to fly all the way to Prasad every time your hull gets full or you run out of ammo or you take too much damage, THAT'S where its main utility lies.

I don't think anyone believes that the RD gates are an exploit, I mean it's not a bug nor is them currently being open unintended.

Don't know about the numbers for trade runs but if they're true then by your own argument the main usefulness of the gates isn't for trade but to gain access to BBW's drone drops and the Controller raid which should take at least some amount of effort to gain access to just like DT does (maybe the fishbowl is supposed to as well only did it 2 or 3 times in live so can't really remember).

But even if those numbers are wrong and BBW is useful for trade runs then it should still take some effort since it's a shortcut which gives players an advantage, in the other two types of xp going to more effort reaps better rewards but in trade short-cuts to the route are the only reward I can think of that's currently in the game.

In combat the easiet route is to buy vendor weapons but they're not very good so people go to the effort of getting player made versions (usually having to collect the required components) often of weapons that are loot only (making them more difficult to get) because they're better and increase the amount of combat xp you can get in a given time. In mining it's easiest to go to fields that are marked on the map but they're often camped and not very good so people go looking for hidden orefields to increase their profit/explore xp. When warping around looking for the hidden navs gets you much more xp than if you had just followed what's on the map. But in trade there's no extra effort a player can go to that gives them any sort of advantage (again that I've been able to think of, let me know if you've got one).

In the end the entire game (and I guess most MMORPGs in general) is a big game of effort and reward, if you want the best items you have to go to raids and kill mobs with really low drop rates, if you want the best ore hauls you have to search vast areas for hidden fields (ok so most people know where they are, but apparently they're going to start to be moved around so you'll have to find them again), and to get the best trade runs you have to get cozy with the guys who know all the back doors. :D

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In trade having the Negotiate skill, and putting points into it, improves your XP gained in Trading. Having a larger cargo hold also makes trade runs less painful. Try doing Somerled to Fenris with a Terran, PT, or JT, then try doing so with a PE, PW, JE, or JW and you will find that you have to make more trips to get the same XP. If you have Negotiate 5 on your toon, and you're doing trade runs, you will get twice the XP of a toon that doesn't have negotiate per item. In addition toons that have Negotiate, also have larger cargo holds. It makes a big difference.

Now whether or not you can make XP faster doing Somerled to Prasad, vs Somerled to Fenris, without using BBW at all, I don't know. But it is definitely faster to do Somerled-Fenris if you have access to BBW vs the same trade run if you don't.

Fenris to Somerled without BBW

Fenris Prime Observatory > Fenris > Valkyrie Twins > Aragoth Prime* > Muspelheim > Odin's Belt > Odin Rex > Jotenheim* > Freya > Akeron's Gate > Saturn* > Glenn* > Carpenter > New Edinburgh > Somerled

Fenris to Somerled with BBW.

Fenris Prime Observatory > Fenris > Valkyrie Twins > Aragoth Prime* > Muspelheim > BlackBeard's Wake > Inverness* > New Edinburgh > Somerled Station.

*Sectors with long trips from gate to gate, AP is arguably the biggest, since you have to fly around Chernevog Station, the long way, each time you fly through either way.

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like Kah said, the reasons for docking at QAR are conveince... but imo its not a huge advantage... its a conveinence (and mostly a conveinece from grinding or time sinking)... this is a game... so if I gotta get more ammo... and I am in a full group now i gotta goto prasad? Well realistically prasad is only what 3 minutes furhter away? so actually that makes it just an annoyance more than anything else... and imo no real reason to close the gates or station...

you could make an arguement that the controller is a reason to make people earn the faction... and if that is the case, then make us earn faction for troller... but from what I hear right now the troller is so damn wimpy he is almsot soloable? am i wrong... havent visted him but the way people talk... I mean a group of 3 guildies were gonna go after him the other night...

Now I realize its gonna take time to toughen these mobs and bosses up... but imo I just see no reason to restrict sectors/bases and create a grind... most of us have been playing this game for what 8 years now... its not like we need to stretch it out to keep players active... we just make more alts... some people have more alts than some guilds have members :)

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I think it's pretty good. If faction works as Live did, then the RDs turn yellow at -1999, and in Live you needed +2000 to use the gates. So if one could enter BBW at -1999, but couldn't enter QAR until +2000 that would be nice. Perhaps there could be an NPC in the lobby, something like Drostan McClure on Charon Cloister that requires you to do a mission to use, but the mission requires you to have +3500 RD. After completing the mission, you can buy some equipment from him as well, provided you keep your faction at or above +3500.

I'd always thought that for the amount of effort it took to get into BBW, that the vendors should have better selection than they did.

Hi Terrell,

yes faction should be working exactly that way now; if you have -1999 RD faction they will turn yellow and won't aggro.

I like the idea of having the gates available at yellow faction, but perhaps for a discount price. I think the 'toll' idea is good, but I also think that maybe you should have at least -4000 RD faction before the RD will talk to you. -4000 RD should be fairly easy to get to with missions and a few specialised job runs.

Also yeah there should be some good stuff at Queen Anne's - maybe non-manufacturable/non-tradeable goods that you can only get by getting in there. How about a really reliable Pirate manufacturing terminal too, which gives higher % on items.

We gotta do something about those pirate gates, and since as far as we know all the faction bugs are sorted, it can be done soon.

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Hi Terrell,

yes faction should be working exactly that way now; if you have -1999 RD faction they will turn yellow and won't aggro.

I like the idea of having the gates available at yellow faction, but perhaps for a discount price. I think the 'toll' idea is good, but I also think that maybe you should have at least -4000 RD faction before the RD will talk to you. -4000 RD should be fairly easy to get to with missions and a few specialised job runs.

Also yeah there should be some good stuff at Queen Anne's - maybe non-manufacturable/non-tradeable goods that you can only get by getting in there. How about a really reliable Pirate manufacturing terminal too, which gives higher % on items.

We gotta do something about those pirate gates, and since as far as we know all the faction bugs are sorted, it can be done soon.

imo it would seem like there is a lot of other stuff to do prior to all this... just spitballing here... but maybe HG missions with rewards for the TS and umm just spitballing again the rest of the TS skills? and (outta spit sorry) maybe some specialized TS gear?

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Hi Terrell,

yes faction should be working exactly that way now; if you have -1999 RD faction they will turn yellow and won't aggro.

I like the idea of having the gates available at yellow faction, but perhaps for a discount price. I think the 'toll' idea is good, but I also think that maybe you should have at least -4000 RD faction before the RD will talk to you. -4000 RD should be fairly easy to get to with missions and a few specialised job runs.

Also yeah there should be some good stuff at Queen Anne's - maybe non-manufacturable/non-tradeable goods that you can only get by getting in there. How about a really reliable Pirate manufacturing terminal too, which gives higher % on items.

We gotta do something about those pirate gates, and since as far as we know all the faction bugs are sorted, it can be done soon.

Cool was wondering that about faction, since I noticed some Progen mobs being red to my Jen toons (JE/JW/JT), despite having faction above -1999, but it's been a while since I checked, so it could be different now.

I think that's pretty cool too the thing about no RD talking to you for faction lower than -4000. Will new chars start at around -5000 RD now? If not which faction would start with the worst RD? I like that you (developers in general) have added jobs from non-playable factions to the job terminals. I think that's a good thing. Thank you for your work on the game.

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