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Player vs Player and Graphical Update


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How I envisioned PvP working was more or less, if someones in your way, you can do something about it. I didn't really see people waiting around just to kill traders for ZERO gain, just to make people lose quality. And in fact, most traders are so fast, thats not going to happen anyway. I don't think EnB as it is now has a big enough community of assholes who would just sit around and wait to kill traders.

The problem is this isn't the case. Given PvP and a bored person all sorts of issues can arise. I mean we wouldn't be voicing these concerns if they hadn't already happened before in other PvP games. Yes people would camp gates to catch 'victims' if its a trade runner or newb fresh out of the gate doesn't matter. Heck even in PvE, like FFXI, they would have people bring mobs to zone that agro and leave them there for some unexpecting lower lv to zone in and get eaten. Its often enough that its even known as "mpk" (mob player kill). I doubt it would have turned into a handy dandy 3 letter word if it didn't happen often enough to be used. Ever wonder why gates have turrets? They not for show but zone protection on the player.

Simple matter of the fact is, if someone is bored enough and want to cause problems for other players they will, short and simple. As it is I think emu's actually done a pretty good job on keeping out the bugs that let people manipulate environment to kill others. PvP just makes this manipulation (or harassment) easier. 'Polite' PvP requires an 'honor code' that normally has no means of enforcing it except by controlled environments. We could make players 'unattackable' for 30seconds after a zone to solve it. But the whole zone/gate attack isn't the only problem PvP presents and would have to be patched. I'd rather not consume all our devs times into fixing the games so people are forced to fight 'fair' when so much other content is yet to be added. EnB community may be small right now but it will probably get bigger as the game gets closer to finish. If there where jerks in live there most certainly can be jerks in emu...more likely actually since its a 'free' game once the news gets out more. Arenas would allow the controlled environments required to eliminate a lot of the PvP issues that would come up. No gating kills (pvp didn't start until 1min after everyone had gated in for field exploration), No one involved that doesn't want to be, No respawn camping (tow in arena took you to a random location inside arena with 30sec of invincibility but unable to attack), so on so forth. I'm in full support of the arena idea, so its not like I'm saying 'no' to all of PvP. I just believe that full open PvP is not for the best of EnB as a game.

As far as your example with the explorer goes. Chasing them off isn't the ideal 'EnB way'. Ideally, you'd team up with them instead of chasing them off. You'd both mine faster, get xp faster, deal with pop rocks together, so on. If your not the pairing type, the current xp system is set up to allow you a percent of the field completion bonus so you don't need to chase them off to get your reward. I've seen non partied miners mind fields and get along just fine several times in live. I've also see the massive xp from mining parties to encourage grouping. Most higher lv mining fields can support larger numbers of miners, so only real conflict would be in lower levels. If certain fields are to popular they need to be balanced out, either guardians or roids added. The entire EnB mining system was built around the idea of 'playing nice' with each other. Large fields for lots of miners, guardians for non miner jobs to get in on the action, builders needing ores to build components, so on. The need to 'chase off' someone and 'claim the field' should really be non existent...yet if PvP was added people would do it anyways because by nature we are quite possessive creatures.

EnB is constantly described as PvE...it should probably more be described as a P&PvE becuase its very strongly geared to teaming up and doing things together. PvP is really the complete opposite of this idea, thus why it has such a hard time meshing into the game. Its taking one extreme on the PvE side and trying to turn it into an extreme of the other side of PvP. I just don't see it working out well, that's not to say there is no compromise. The arena zones seem to be exactly that, a place where PvP can occur without harming the rest of the game play.

Edited by Raptorred
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I read everything you posted.

It seems as if Arena is the real way to go.

The dev's time needn't be wasted on creating a whole new PvP system anyway.

Perhaps open PvP like I said earlier-

Requirements:

First logging in - Cannot be attacked for 60 seconds

Zoning after gating - Cannot be attacked for 30 seconds

Attackers must be within 4 combat levels of one another

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I don't think people realize that when they click the little minus sign to vote down a post, they're not actually remarking on the post, they're remarking on the user. Thusly, if you post something people disagree with, even if you didn't say anything inflammatory, you can get some negative reputation, lol.

Also, it looks like most of your negative rep is coming from a few people who are voting down all your posts. Guys, please don't abuse the reputation system like that. It's just not nice.

Edited by C Del
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I don't think people realize that when they click the little minus sign to vote down a post, they're not actually remarking on the post, they're remarking on the user. Thusly, if you post something people disagree with, even if you didn't say anything inflammatory, you can get some negative reputation, lol.

Heh heh.

Or a few select people just hate me for making a new post about PvP since the board update.

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I've been looking through this thread and others and you're getting a lot of negative rep for stating valid opinions, and pretty politely from what I've seen. I think it's time for people to chill with dishing out the rep.

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I have been trying to vote him up a bit too but cant keep up... I mean I disagred with some of what he said... but it really seemed like he was not trying to provoke a war although his 2nd post was a little rough he more than apologized for it...

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Devs . Folks. Lend me your ears. . . .

Lets just bring back the PVP arena, the only sugestion i have this time around is dont make us wait so long to get in.

it was less about PVP and more about some game, I know . But it was fun challanging your friend and trying to wip up on each other

Fun for a minuet to settle arguments, this game should never go full fledged PVP or should you have a sector that has some kind of rare thing so people can play pirate and wack all that come in.

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Well as upset as I was on some his personal attacks on me. I have not done any neg. reps. I think I may be due to hit a couple though :D

I have been trying to vote him up a bit too but cant keep up... I mean I disagred with some of what he said... but it really seemed like he was not trying to provoke a war although his 2nd post was a little rough he more than apologized for it...

Aww, you're so nice :D

So, I guess Arena is the way to go.

Perhaps only custom made sectors will have open PvP.

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Also, it looks like most of your negative rep is coming from a few people who are voting down all your posts. Guys, please don't abuse the reputation system like that. It's just not nice.

Personally I've mostly been voting down for inappropriate/rude language and sometimes sarcasm (I feel its a mocking of other opinions at times and never good in a touchy subject like PvP obviously is). I consider this to be a 'person' thing not a 'post' thing. I don't mark off just becuase of 'different opinion' than mine...I fully encourage a good banter, so long as its kept polite. You can't deny that things got a little rough in the thread earlier (where most of my mark down occurs and I marked down on both sides of the issue), but as said before apologizes have been made. Frankly, I highly respect the fact he was even willing to broach the subject considering how touchy PvP is (thus mark up on the OP and when he's got a good idea).

So, I guess Arena is the way to go. Perhaps only custom made sectors will have open PvP.

I don't see anything wrong with committing one of the arena zones to an 'free for all' zone. Enter, have 30 sec of immunity/unable to attack~ Then go to town. :D Like I said before I think we can come up with some pretty interesting ideas for the Arena zones. Lets turn the thread towards Arena ideas ^.~ I think people would be 'happier' discussing PvP knowing its going to be 'contained'.

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I only took a brief view back through the thread and saw some run-of-the-mill, polite posts voted down, so I admit I really don't know the whole situation. I'm not about to try to be the niceness police, I just want the forums to be a friendly place, and it's no fun to be on the forums when people are having rep fights, lol. All I ask is that people not let things get out of hand or vote people down because of grudges or the like.

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I only took a brief view back through the thread and saw some run-of-the-mill, polite posts voted down, so I admit I really don't know the whole situation. I'm not about to try to be the niceness police, I just want the forums to be a friendly place, and it's no fun to be on the forums when people are having rep fights, lol. All I ask is that people not let things get out of hand or vote people down because of grudges or the like.

I had a problem with the member in another thread outside of this I made, seeming as if any thread I make he just wants to nay-say and down vote me for no reason, and then I was getting down votes in the cross-racial class thread for posting like one or two words, that had nothing to do with negativity.

But anyways, I haven't been on the forums for long, and I did tackle a sensitive subject considering PvP. I played during Stress Test 2 and 3, but never posted. Just from the looks of Stress Test 4 for me, it was time to bring up PvP.

Yes, this issue was very rough at the start of this thread, but if you guys are going to vote me down for bringing up touchy subjects, then I suppose I'll deal with it, someone has to.

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I would like to see some form of PvP brought back to the game (Arena only IMO), but I think that should be a ways down on the development list. I would first like to see more of the sectors brought back, more of the storyline implemented again, etc before we get to PvP.

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I know I have been very vocal in regards to PvP more specifically Open PvP in EnB. I did a Google search and found countless forum discussions on the Pros and Cons of PvP (all kinds from consensual to full on open PvP)

There are several articles on the user demographics of PvP broken down into sex, age, and even the Socioeconomics of PvP players. You are welcome to do your own searches as I don’t wish to influence the information you happen to find.

In trying to keep an open mind and accept that which will most likely be instituted into EnB at some future date. I decided to help in some small way, point the Devs to this information. I also (being me) will offer up personal experiences and thoughts.

Note: My comments are in Italics

The first is a big post, detailing with most parts of mmorpg’s in general and some specific information on how Devs handled the issues.

http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/mmorpg/genre-challenges.html

Griefers

Developers have taken steps to prevent these things from happening.

KSing

Locking the encounters so that other players cannot join a fight without the consent of the initiating combatant.

Marking the reward for the player or group that initiated the fight.

Setting up a virtual court system to identify and punish griefers.

(I think the GM system works well with the user base currently in game)

Player killing

Unrestricted (Open) PvP can be very discouraging to new players.

Many MMORPGs handle this problem by making PvP optional or consensual.

A dedicated PvP server or on a PvE server, PvP combat is limited to special circumstances (areas).

A method (stated in a prior post here)

Suppression levels

25% zone you can only attack a player from the opposite faction,

5% allows PvP with everyone outside your player organization (guild)

location specific PvP zones

Unrestricted PvP, but inflict penalties on those who repeatedly attack players who do not regularly engage in PvP.

I’m not sure how this could be enforced.

Some limitations are required to avoid driving away new players.

Uber guilds and zerg guilds

These groups can use their influence to affect game play by, for example, "owning" areas of the world, controlling the economy, or using tactics like zerging. Such forces discourage casual players.

If the bigger guilds engage in PvP, the smaller guilds or solo players may not have a chance to compete for ores or hunting areas.

The information below is taken almost word for word from the site I found this on. Interesting that the PvP will initially be introduced as what looks like regulated and organized PvP.

http://www.wasdstomp.com/2010/01/can-you-add-pvp-to-pve-game-years-later.html

Can you add PvP to a PvE game years later?

EQ2 is adding PvP

Battlefield of Ganak

Some story line of why this is happening, or what this PvP zone is all about.

Game Type: Capture the Flag

Players: 6 Person Group

Objective: Capture the enemy's flag located within their base and return it to your base with your flag still in place

Win Condition: First team to successfully capture and return three flags wins

Smuggler's Den

Some story line of why this is happening, or what this PvP zone is all about.

Game Type: Hold Territory

Players: 24 Person Group

Environment: Five spires on top of two pinnacles jutting out of a raging ocean

Objective: Gain control and hold towers longer than the opposition to earn Tower Tickets

Win Condition: First team to reach the displayed Tower Ticket goal wins

Gears of Klak'Anon

Some story line of why this is happening, or what this PvP zone is all about.

Game Type: Hold the Relic

Players: 6 Person Group

Environment: Industrious clockwork foundry containing scientific equipment in motion

Objective: Acquire and hold the relic to accrue points faster than the opposition

Win Condition: First team to reach the set score wins

A few closing thoughts.

Chat channel(s)

Most of the forums described the chat channels as more “Adult” or uncensored than what the channels are now. I think for the most part the chat channels here being 90% player moderated work well. In a PvP chat, the content and general language will be a bit more confrontational, and non PG rated. This is to be expected with taunting and challenges, even though sometimes good natured will be rougher than we are used to.

Need a PvP channel with disclaimer.

PvP rewards

Personally I think that PvP rewards be they weapons or gear should only be usable in the PvP areas. If this is hard to initiate then this gear could be made available to the non PvPers in the way of NPC vendors or player sales. Pirates of the Burning seas gave tokens as rewards for kills, these tokens (general currency addition) could be used for ships, special items, even books (prints for gear).

Player Base

I can’t remember if there has been any poll of players on their wants or needs for PvP. I know there has been some forum polls, but not all of the users respond or read the forums. Perhaps the GMs can do an informal head count and ask in game?

It seems that instituting PvP will require some work. If the users that don’t want PvP far outnumber those that do, the Devs time should be spent on getting the new sectors open, and fixing known bugs. (I know volunteer Devs, so what they do or don’t is up to them) These polls can be held as many times as anyone thinks as the game progresses.

Hope this has been a little more positive than my other posts.

Edited by Mimir
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  • 4 weeks later...

I loved this game in live primarily for the fact that pvp only existed in the arenas.

I work hard and have a stressful job with this game I can relax, destress from the day and enjoy some time away from real life and talk with the community.

that being said; I don't believe EnB was ever meant for the "cookie cutter" pk/pvp type game like most on the market today. You have the pay to win, the big guild ganging up on everyone else, and the ever so popular "elite" that make gaming for anyone they don't deem on their level so frustrating many do quit and move on.

It has become common for many to mix pk (player killing/nonconsentual combat) and pvp (consentual player vs player) into "pvp" to suit their "I'm gonna make as many people miserable as I can because I want to/entitled to/mommy said I'm special type of attitude. This creates an environment of whining/griefing/begging/gold spamming/botting/frustration/makes me want to throw my keyboard out the window; I have never seen in live or in the emulator.

I would hope that in reflection we can come to some agreement about pvp that will work for those who want it and for those like myself that don't. I have so many fond memories of a community that stood together no matter if they were in a guild or not to make this game great, I truely don't want to see this go by the wayside to be replaced with the attitudes that are so common in most "pvp" oriented games instead.

If we separate ourselve with and over pvp what will happen when the vr3xc4m2? their artifacts and evidence of their presence is being detected by travellers even now.... who can we turn to in the coming battle if not each other?

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  • 1 month later...

I wouldnt mind seeing PvP ingame in a few selected sectors ( new ones ) as long as non-pvp players isnt forced to enter thoose sectors.

But there should be a carrot for the non-pvpers who enters the sector.

Perhaps someone who manufactures stuff could get a % bonus if he/she creates stuff in a starbase located in a pvpsector.

Perhaps there could be a rare asteroidfield for miners?

I know alot of enb-players dont want to pvp but to be honest. If you read the storyline or played the game you might remember several occations where pvp should have been concidered an option ( and what i can remember, even the original devs at Westwood had pvp in thought for several occations ) If our goal is to have a large/ bigger playerbase we should try to add totaly new content. Dont know how fun the fishbowl is going to be after you done it 3732792 times.

There are several scenarios that could be availble depending on how far back in the storyline the current devs takes us.

A few ideas on possible scenarios:

The progen-jenq war: For example the destruction/defense of jove city. ( Progens attacks the city, jenqs must stop progens before the citys shield / armor is down to zero. The winning side get some kind of reward. ( This could be for. example a maximum 1 hour battle. If the base is not destroyed within 1 hour, the jenqs wins. )

The terran vs progen fight in Moto: ( I actually thought this was a pvp-sector the first time i entered it ) Cant remember all the details about moto from the original storyline documentation but this looks like a nice place to have a pvp-scenario between the terran alliane and the progens.

Defend Planet Primus from v'rix: ( i rather fight devs / gm's who controls v'rix ships than killing 1000000 npc ships until they stop spawning and still losing the battle, as it was back in live... )

This list could be longer because the storyline is very interesting and i dont want to spoil it to thoose who hasnt read it.

Other pvp-related suggestions:

Implant a new playable ( not really but you might get the point at the end) faction, Red Dragon. If you get max faction with the RD's , it should start a long mission chain where you in the end could choose to become a Red Dragon. The final mission gives you a "hull upgrade" that changes the look of your ship into a red dragon model. Perhaps even create a new class with it's own uniqe skilltree for the rd's? Anyhow. The purpose of this is that you would be pvp-enabled all the time in all sectors, the bad side is that you are a pirate and can be attacked anywhere, anytime. Even the gate turrents would fire upon you. And i doubt that many of the starbases would accept you.

just a few of my cents

/Z

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