Punishing Kiters

[afrodub]

Anyways, it's just an idea/suggestion. Not fully baked, so I'm sure there's holes/problems with it.

Fullish,

Not a bad idea, but the issue here is, that if your kiting something and your just outside its attack range, as soon as it turns around and starts to run back to its spawn, its hitting you.

The "retreat and shoot at 2x range" mechanic is whats flawed. They shouldnt be able to shoot at 2x their range while running away.

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Example:

Im hunting hippocampuses on Adruinne sector on my pw, by the destroyed moon core.

Engage a 28 mutant, start reverse kiting him. the Hippo's range is 3.5k-ish i stay right around 3.6-3.8k

So already this is very risky, as soon as he teethers, he instantly has 7k range and kills me as hes running away.

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As you can see, this game mechanic dosent make any sence at all. Whats the point of giving mobs this ability?

There is not one, except to kill anyone who kites mobs higher than their lvl. Which is what alot of people in this game do, of all races.

I am not aruging the specifics of this mechanic, im aurging that it is game-breaking, and needs to be removed 100%

Dont get me wrong i dont mind the teether (as it was before they put this short teether&retreat defence in the game)

I hope this clears it up a little bit for everyone.

Thanks,

Cia

Also to answer your question:

Minor question, are the mobs attackable during their "flee" phase?

Yes they are attackable, however they retreat at 1000 thrust. (their speed) So unless your thrust is over 1000, you cant catch up to them, and the whole time your trying to catch them, they hit you at 2x their range. And if your not doing damage to them, their shields start to recharge, which makes things even more difficult.

(example: your fighting cl56 Progen/Terran(boss) in Moto, he already has a 8k range with his beams, if you kite him, and he teethers, he can hit you from 16k away) so the whole time hes retreating untill hes 16km away from you, hes attacking you.

Also i noticed, if you run away from him (if you flee) it sets off the teether, and he can shoot you untill your 16km away.

this feature needs to be removed

Cia

[fuulishone]

I forgot to say that my idea would be predicated on the "return fire while fleeing" mechanic to be removed. The damage immunity while fleeing was meant to prevent potential exploits and to give a little something back to the mob if their return fire was removed. I wanted to try to make it so that kiting took skill since you had to jockey a mob into the right range for it to work. Go too far and you have to start over. Optimal would be keeping the mob in a circle kite just short of the flee range.

[siadrinkswater]

Yes they are attackable, however they retreat at 1000 thrust. (their speed) So unless your thrust is over 1000, you cant catch up to them, and the whole time your trying to catch them, they hit you at 2x their range.

hmm wonder if this could be changed to where retreating mobs can only hit you at their normal range, and only retreat at a speed closer to what they float around at

[afrodub]

I forgot to say that my idea would be predicated on the "return fire while fleeing" mechanic to be removed. The damage immunity while fleeing was meant to prevent potential exploits and to give a little something back to the mob if their return fire was removed. I wanted to try to make it so that kiting took skill since you had to jockey a mob into the right range for it to work. Go too far and you have to start over. Optimal would be keeping the mob in a circle kite just short of the flee range.

ok i understand where your coming from with that than.

But as is, if your pulling a mob from a group of mobs, and it teethers, and it makes it back to the group, you than have to wait untill you see another mob near the edge of the group or whatever and start over.

I honestly thought the way it was before the new "teether/retreat fire" was a great base, and it mimic'd live very good. IMO i thought it was almsot identical to live, once mobs have their skills/abilities back, their will be challange again when fighting mobs of all combat lvls.

Gravlink/Summon/Increasesig/increaseweaponsdelay/debuff to their damage type/reactor drain, ect ect ect

Cia

[Mimir[IS]]

I just wonder if we could hear the rationale for the changes?

Was it like this in live? Are we (they) still shooting for like “live” or is this going to be how it in mow in the emu?

I also noticed even with the weird mob behavior that loot tables have been changed quite a bit as well.

There have been lots of changes lately but no post on what or why … that I can find.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

I just wonder if we could hear the rationale for the changes?

Was it like this in live? Are we (they) still shooting for like “live” or is this going to be how it in mow in the emu?

I also noticed even with the weird mob behavior that loot tables have been changed quite a bit as well.

There have been lots of changes lately but no post on what or why … that I can find.

If we have a need to communicate a change like that, we do, otherwise it's a patch note. The only time we NEED to communicate such a thing is if we're afraid the change will cause technical problems, otherwise similar to what Tienbau said, things are a work in progress and it'll take time before you see what the final state will be. There's no reason to get worked up over it

As far as this "like live" business goes: The original goal of this project was to have a working server. We're trying to keep it like live where we can sure, but there are some cases where the mechanics of live were broken for whatever reason. In those cases, if we identify them, they will be fixed or replaced with something that does work and makes the game more interesting and fun. We cannot make a carbon copy of live, it can't be done, as there wasn't much documentation available we've had to do a lot of improvisation. We cannot trust "I remember x and y being like z!" as a means of implementing a system. For those of you that want a carbon copy of live, your only hope is to beg EA to restart the servers they have or give us every bit of documentation they had on it. We have done almost everything you see now based on documents and data captures that we had, many others (i.e. most of the missions) were created from scratch because there was no existing documentation.

In regards to the rationale for the changes, is there a specific change you're referring to or is this a gripe? (I notice you didn't point at anything specific). If you want to know, ask, and we'll try to enlighten where it doesn't endanger the story or surprises we have planned for you.

That's all I'm gonna say on this particular sub:)ct.

[afrodub]

That's all I'm gonna say on this particular subject.

Thank you Kyp for responding to the thread.

I totally understand what your talking about. I personally, in no way want to insult the team or any one person.

I understand the "cant trust person A talking about content B" That makes perfect sence to me. No worries there.

I personally think everything the team has done, is totally wonderful for the e&B community. Alot of us missed the game dearly.

I cant even begin to tell you how much sleep i've lost since this game has came back. lol

Thanks,

Cia

[Mimir[IS]]

If we have a need to communicate a change like that, we do, otherwise it's a patch note. The only time we NEED to communicate such a thing is if we're afraid the change will cause technical problems, otherwise similar to what Tienbau said, things are a work in progress and it'll take time before you see what the final state will be. There's no reason to get worked up over it

As far as this "like live" business goes: The original goal of this project was to have a working server. We're trying to keep it like live where we can sure, but there are some cases where the mechanics of live were broken for whatever reason. In those cases, if we identify them, they will be fixed or replaced with something that does work and makes the game more interesting and fun. We cannot make a carbon copy of live, it can't be done, as there wasn't much documentation available we've had to do a lot of improvisation. We cannot trust "I remember x and y being like z!" as a means of implementing a system. For those of you that want a carbon copy of live, your only hope is to beg EA to restart the servers they have or give us every bit of documentation they had on it. We have done almost everything you see now based on documents and data captures that we had, many others (i.e. most of the missions) were created from scratch because there was no existing documentation.

In regards to the rationale for the changes, is there a specific change you're referring to or is this a gripe? (I notice you didn't point at anything specific). If you want to know, ask, and we'll try to enlighten where it doesn't endanger the story or surprises we have planned for you.

That's all I'm gonna say on this particular subject.

lol was not trying to piss anyone off. And communicate changes or don't, no big deal to me. If these changes are as planned then that's ok too. I won't report any weird changes (differences from a few days ago) if they are as intended. I ask in game and seems that everyone is in the dark as I. On the live comment it looks to me that it is used as a matter of convenience answer. If someone says “X” then the response is well it was “X” in live. Or at other times someone says this is not as it was in live, and the answer is “Z” is better. I do understand this is a work in progress… but there was something mentioned a bit ago about better communication.

-Edit --

Oops I already posted a weird thing in the bug forum. sorry

Edited May 14, 2010 by Mimir

[Kyp [LDEV]]

lol was not trying to piss anyone off. And communicate changes or don't, no big deal to me. If these changes are as planned then that's ok too. I won't report any weird changes (differences from a few days ago) if they are as intended. I ask in game and seems that everyone is in the dark as I. On the live comment it looks to me that it is used as a matter of convenience answer. If someone says “X” then the response is well it was “X” in live. Or at other times someone says this is not as it was in live, and the answer is “Z” is better. I do understand this is a work in progress… but there was something mentioned a bit ago about better communication.

-Edit --

Oops I already posted a weird thing in the bug forum. sorry

Not remotely cl:)e to upset, Great ways to communicate don't come up instantly, after all. What in particular were you concerned about in your original post? Was it in regard to this thread? Didn't Tienbau already make some adjustments, is it still bad? Why is it still bad? Is it not this issue, but another?

Also, I like to think of it like it is Mad Science. You totter about the lab and do odd experiments to see how they work. It's hard to give insight prior to having an experiment, especially if YOU are giving it to the test subject, eh? =)

[Tienbau]

as the scouser kitten says 'calm down, calm down'.

It's all work in progress - as I said try it again now - actually log on and try it that is Just because 'Joe90tt' on the server has said something - it might actually not be true.

[Falstar [MOD]]

So, has anyone played with the adjustments Tienbau made? I plan to look into them if I can sometime today. Also, don't forget that with any dynamically changing game, sometimes tactics need to change. Just because one particular strategy worked in the past, does not mean it will be the best way to continue. Maybe a new strategy will take more effort. Maybe it will work better - what I'm sure we don't want is a player base that can't change or adapt. I know content devs are definitely thinking of ways to get you to think in different ways

At the same time, don't take this as me saying you shouldn't ask or question, or take every weird thing you encounter as "the way it is now." All of you know there are bugs and strange things out there as we continue testing.

[afrodub]

So, has anyone played with the adjustments Tienbau made? I plan to look into them if I can sometime today. Also, don't forget that with any dynamically changing game, sometimes tactics need to change. Just because one particular strategy worked in the past, does not mean it will be the best way to continue. Maybe a new strategy will take more effort. Maybe it will work better - what I'm sure we don't want is a player base that can't change or adapt. I know content devs are definitely thinking of ways to get you to think in different ways

At the same time, don't take this as me saying you shouldn't ask or question, or take every weird thing you encounter as "the way it is now." All of you know there are bugs and strange things out there as we continue testing.

I havent posted in a day or so because i wanted to test how these mobs act now, before i posted. Im still testing but this is what i noticed so far with tienbau's "toning down"

1) The main thing i notice now when kiting, is that mobs start to teether but dont actually teether. They turn around and shoot you (2x weapon range), than turn back around to face you and keep following you, than they turn around again and shoot you, than turn back around and follow. This action takes less than 1 second, and if your watching the mob in the targeting box, they just simple spin around in a circle, when their back is to you they hit you.

2) After mobs teether twice, they ignore players, and just let you kill them. i tested this on Master, The Controller, GOBB, all BBW drones, cl66manes, cl50 bio extractors, Desash the pleague, and Ten-gu Destroyers.

Pretty much the game is being broken by this "new introduced code"

I honestly still dont see the reasoning behind giving this ability to mobs.

Kiting with my lower lvl toons is pointless now, as the mobs just shoot further than their max range and kill you.

Tested this on: scuttle bugs in luna, hippocampuses in adurinne, greks in new endiburg.

And learn new tatics? a better question is "why are you trying to fix something thats not broken?"

Cia

[seekeronos]

Please remove the 2x range run-away-tethering "feature".

If you must have some sort of anti-kiting penalty, then let them a "panic shot" or a "desparation roll" that multiplies the power of their (normally ranged) shot 2x-3x.

[bondct]

Please remove the 2x range run-away-tethering "feature".

If you must have some sort of anti-kiting penalty, then let them a "panic shot" or a "desparation roll" that multiplies the power of their (normally ranged) shot 2x-3x.

once again, all you kiters have to understand where this is coming from... beamers are making kiter code and this is where the punishment comes in (not intentionally, they are just beamers and dont understand)... as was said earlier... why are we even fixing something that wasn't broken... this is why I always ask that jenpies do not need to respond to a lot of my threads... of course they have the right to and I would not deny them that... but do we really need to read all the extra posts created by people whose every word screams "nerf kiters"... we heard you the first 1,000,000 times

and yes, i can recall mob ai prior to the tethering nerf... once you aggro'd a mob it would follow you forever and never go home even if you left the zone... but fixing broken with more broken isnt a solution... and that 2x mob fire range is just once again beamer crap since beamers are always in fire range...

[Yazuly]

a better question is "why are you trying to fix something thats not broken?"

+100 to that.

I haven't been able to play last week. I finally got to log in last night. I hunted both solo and in group. In groups we didn't kite, just pull a mob and kill it. Several times as we approached a mob (hadn't even fired a shot at it) it would disappear. I also had this happen solo. No shots fired, just moving into range and poof the mob vanishes. If I keep maneuvering forward I'll eventually find the mob again (well I'm assuming it is the same mob). In group I was on my JE. Several times the target box said I was in range for shield leech but I would get the message I was out of range. Several times the target box showed the mob at 60K away, yet missiles are still being launched by my groupmates and when it died the loot pile was only 5k away.

Another thing I noticed while solo kiting on my TT (kiting to pull the mob away from others), the target box was showing the mob doing a herky jerky, I'd gain distance a second or two then the mob would close the gap as if it speed up for a second. This would repeat a couple times before I could then continually gain distance on it.

Third thing I noticed, while pulling a mob away I inadvertently came in range of some RD. They agro'd and I just went in circles, mostly out of their range, until I killed my target. Then I warped away until there were no red icons on my screen. I come back to get another mob and the whole group of RD come from 8 - 10K away after me (my sig is 2.5). It wasn't until I docked that their long range agro stopped.

I haven't pulled mobs far enough to see what happens when they hit their tether. I'll do that today on some mobs where I have plenty room. But to be honest, this fire while running away business, especially at 2x range, sounds so lame to me.

I feel the tethering we had before was sufficient to keep kiting interesting. When mobs get more of their skills I'm sure kiting (under the old tethering) will be even more interesting and require more skill. The new feature we have now is just plain bad - as in bad play experience.

[Yuritau]

Third thing I noticed, while pulling a mob away I inadvertently came in range of some RD. They agro'd and I just went in circles, mostly out of their range, until I killed my target. Then I warped away until there were no red icons on my screen. I come back to get another mob and the whole group of RD come from 8 - 10K away after me (my sig is 2.5). It wasn't until I docked that their long range agro stopped.

This brings up another point. Mobs need a maximum limit to the scan range, after they've been aggro'd, and anything beyond that range is removed from their aggro list. And let that be the only thing that determines when they run away (unless you've got some sort of "run away in the face of overwhelming odds" thing in mind, that's cool too). Near as I can tell, once you aggro a mob, it keeps you on it's aggro list until you leave the sector, even if you warp 100k+ away from it.

[Gobblu]

I noticed while killing mist runners and mist lords at freya field 2(last night before the restart), that (1) there are very very few of them (3 at a time is all I saw) and (2) every third mist lord that spawns will head south at what seems to be warp speed, get about 30k from the nav point disappear, and reappear 30k to the north of the nav and warp back south. If you target it and do a /range it says 4400 or something close to that, but my missiles (ogun 200%) will not fire at it.

This makes trying to kill mobs for missile users almost impossible, since you can't tell where they really are. Things may have changed since then, but I haven't logged in yet.

[seekeronos]

I noticed while killing mist runners and mist lords at freya field 2(last night before the restart), that (1) there are very very few of them (3 at a time is all I saw) and (2) every third mist lord that spawns will head south at what seems to be warp speed, get about 30k from the nav point disappear, and reappear 30k to the north of the nav and warp back south. If you target it and do a /range it says 4400 or something close to that, but my missiles (ogun 200%) will not fire at it.

This makes trying to kill mobs for missile users almost impossible, since you can't tell where they really are. Things may have changed since then, but I haven't logged in yet.

Two spawns of the L55 Controller Yee drones at the Controller (looks like an outsize blender) nav do that too, although they are loading in at about 50-80km from the nav point (and show up on my scan whilst I am parked at the nav)

These two are only attackable by grav-linking them - which will *sometimes* cause them to teleport to a point 3-5km *behind* me.

[Vinzent Zeppelin[IS]]

I can confirm the issue with the Paramis drones, and some experimentation showed that I could fight them normally, albeit not knowing their exact position. I was still able to fire upon them (and vice-versa), and /range yielded a normal value, while the client was showing them being 30, 50, 80k away off to the side or behind me. Typically when fighting them in this manner the corpse would appear where it should once they were destroyed. This indicates that, server-side, everything was all right, but that there was a loss of communication between the server and client in regards to the position of the mobs. If anyone can provide more information about this it would help; particularly if it's occurring universally or if it only seems to happen with particular mobs and/or groups or in particular sectors.

[seekeronos]

I can confirm the issue with the Paramis drones, and some experimentation showed that I could fight them normally, albeit not knowing their exact position. I was still able to fire upon them (and vice-versa), and /range yielded a normal value, while the client was showing them being 30, 50, 80k away off to the side or behind me. Typically when fighting them in this manner the corpse would appear where it should once they were destroyed. This indicates that, server-side, everything was all right, but that there was a loss of communication between the server and client in regards to the position of the mobs. If anyone can provide more information about this it would help; particularly if it's occurring universally or if it only seems to happen with particular mobs and/or groups or in particular sectors.

I had this happen with a player character - where another player targeted me at more than 70km away in Cooper.

This would tend to corroborate that this is a client-side handling issue (will have to check for bad opcodes when this happens next time)

The most recent fix seems to have toned this down in Paramis somewhat; I did not notice any "jumpers" (although this might have more to do with less people being there to camp the mobs and thus making me search the fringes of the camp for targets...)

[Yazuly]

I tested kiting last night. I still notice that mobs will appear on edge of screen and when I click their icon to target them they disappear. In one instance, Privateer Bounty Hunter in Endriago, the mob is in front of me on right side of screen, I target and fire missiles and the mob teleports to the left side of the screen. My missiles turn and follow it. Then, just before missile impact the mob teleports to dead center of screen and then missiles impact. This all occurred around 4k range.

I kited several mobs to end of their tether. I did it with different mobs and different sectors. Mob reaches tether (and I've shot at it) it turns and runs away. I found that if I reacted fasted enough I could pursue the now fleeing mob and stay in missile range. As far as I could tell, the mob never fired back at me. In fact none of them ever stopped running once they went into flee mode - they all died tired.

This brings me to the next issue - mobs appear to keep running through their patrol area. This has the consequence that I pursue close enough to its buddies that they agro on me. Once those mobs agro there is no stopping them pursuing you.

In another case, I warp to a nav point and there are mobs there and they start shooting at me. I deselect the nav point and hit warp. I never fired at them. I warp well out of my scan range. A few seconds later I see them coming towards me. Although I'm far enough away that I can't see them, they certainly know where I am and stay in hot pursuit. Once agro starts, it doesn't appear to stop. I'm guessing that if you agro but don't shoot at them they won't leash. They will pursue forever or pursue as long as they can see you for 2x their scan range? Regardless, this behavior of mobs continuing to pursue you after you've warped away did not happen before the new tether changes and is one of the worst things about this new change.

It appears that mobs have their weapon range increased. This may be because I'm now hunting some higher level mobs but I thought some of the mobs I hunted before I could hold at 2.3k and not get hit. Now it's around 4.6k. Is it possible that once a mob has been agro'd or perhaps leashed by someone else that it keeps a 2x weapon range? I don't think I forgot that much in the week I was away from the game but it seems like mob weapon ranges have increased.

The final event of the night occurs when I warp back to the station in the sector. I see a high level mane at the station. I'm guessing someone agro'd it and warped away to the station. The mane followed them to the station and now I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time. I barely made it into the station alive. I think this is another example of indefinite pursuit once you agro a mob, especially if you haven't shot at it.

I'm also noticing that I will get shot at while in warp. I haven't noticed if I actually took damage but I am being shot at.

While the basic idea or mechanics of the new tether and flee feature may be okay, I think it has introduced a lot of side affects that are messing things up. The two biggest problems I feel are what appears to be a very large if not indefinite agro range once a mob is agro and mobs appearing to flee completely through their patrol area if not fleeing indefinitely.

[Falstar [MOD]]

+1 Very detailed and thorough input on recent changes. I'm sure that will help further troubleshooting and development. I'll pull out my TT and keep an eye out for these things and add my observations if I see different.

[afrodub]

+1 Very detailed and thorough input on recent changes. I'm sure that will help further troubleshooting and development. I'll pull out my TT and keep an eye out for these things and add my observations if I see different.

This new change introduced to the game is still very awful. I know people are adapting and such, but this is still a stupid change, and still no one has come up with a "reason" why this change was put in.

This will now be known as "the great kite nerf of 2010"

this update to mob AI is total and utter garbage. Its hard for me to type anything and not put in cuss words and other explictives when talking about this issue.

Thanks for breaking something that was not broken.

Cia

[gorlace]

problem is they are falling intot he same trap as any other big company trying to run a a game, doing what they think is right and not listening to anyone else. biggest downfall and we are seeing it many people leaving

[Riia [LDEV]]

Hi

It saddens me to see that some you are taking a great deal of offense to some temporary changes that have occurred as we try to implement improvements to mobs.

Here is what is happening at the moment with mobs.(This required a complete rewrite of the mob editor and testing of some of the changes, some implementations require new code, not yet written).

We doing a complete overhaul of every mob. Each mob will now have settings for the following:

Factions- including factions which do not affect players but mob to mob interactions.

Impulse Speed

Signature, Scan Range and Missile Defense

Resistances and Vulnerabilities- each mob will have its own set of resistances or vulnerabilities to damage.

Skills- each mob will have its own set of up to 9 skills and 9 levels of these skills to use against its attacker.

Bravery, Aggression, Altruism and Intelligence- there are between 3-5 setting for each of these.

Shield, Reactor and Hull- each mob will have its own reactor, shield and hull settings plus recharge rates.

Weapons- each mob will have its own set of weapons with individual ranges, damage and reload times, modified by its available skills.

Loot- each mob or set of mobs will have its own common loot table and rare loot table.

There are between 2000-2500 mobs now in the DB and each mob will have to be totally redone. This is being done to give us much more flexibility in all areas pertaining to mobs. This will probably take 2-3 months to implement if every thing goes smoothly.

I'm sure that as we implement these changes there will be times when unintended things happen. What we would appreciate is that you report these errors. What we do not need the disparaging and /or sarcastic comments!

Further to this I would like to reemphasize ( as it seems that some of you forget this), this team is made up of individuals that volunteer their time for free. The donations that some of you so generously provide is used to pay for the servers and the software need to allow all of you to play this game.

Please remember that we have real life jobs, wives/husbands, children, grandchildren and parents that also require our time.

Riia