Punishing Kiters

[afrodub]

Hello,

Thanks for reading my post.

[whine]

I feel that kiters are being punished by the Dev's lack of inmagination/effort.

As a terran player from live, the main purpose of being a terran is to kite mobs many levels over their own using their range as their main weapon.

There was never an issue with kiting mobs in live, it was a extreamly valued tatic used by many people.

This new AI mob change is totally out of line, and goes agsint the reason people make terran toons.

*Im talking about the very short teether and the mobs abilty to shoot twice their normal range while teethering.

I cant understand why the dev's thought this was an ok change.

I feel this change is game breaking, stupid and will cause alot of people to quit.

Dont mess with the mobs, because once you put the skills back in-game the mobs will be a challenge again. Work on fixing the skills for mobs, dont put in a crappy temp-fix.

[/whine]

Thanks,

Cia

[Terrell [BT]]

Actually agree with that. Not just for Terrans, who are the masters of kiting, but for Progen and Jenquai who have their own variants of this tactic. If there are going to be mob tethers, please make them much longer. As a Jenquai it's often to my advantage to attempt to isolate a mob from it's buddies, so I can get a 1 on 1 fight. The mob going back to it's buddies if I manage to fold, (after FS is fixed) summon, or lure him far away from it's buddies does make fighting a bit more difficult.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Terrell

[pull4rise]

well as i see it now the range some mobs can hit at isnt the problem,the problem is that visibility issue....remember the parasites in ardus they like a 9-10k range with their missiles but when i went there with my pw who had like 6-7kish pl range i could solo them easy without getting hit coz of low visibility the following rule always applied on mobs in live they cant hit wot they cant see and here for some reason when u have 0,0sig a mob who doesnt aggro at u when at like 4-5k away from it,will hit u at 6-7k range or even more when its aggro on u since for some reason when they are aggroed they have infinite scanrange..just take this as an example normally with the current setup im running on my pw with a sig 0,5 i should be able to solo the minions of bbg within 5,5-6k range without them being able to hit me since they dont aggro on me when im at that range from them without having them shot 1 time...this means their scanrange isnt high enough to detect me....but now when i take shot at them 10-11k away they are still able to c and hit me...no matter how low my visibility is.but then we are still in a test phase and its probably something the devs r working on...so we will c wot next st will bring or maybe even in a later patch in this st.

[r8rsfans75]

Not to pile on (ok, I'm actually going to pile on) but I have to agree.

Example:

Anyone ever done the lvl30 progen HU? If you think through the process you know where I am going to end up with this example. The DCO missions for destroying the militia was a big enough pain before this whole massive scan range (or whatever you want to call it) thing started. It used to be relatively easy to get through the first couple parts, kill 6 cl8 militia, and then kill 6 cl10 bombers, easy enough as long as you found the right spot where you wouldn't get aggro'd by more than 3 at a time. But the last part was to kill the cl16 captain. Now if you were an even OL30 (meaning 10 for CL, EL and TL) this was almost impossible to do alone, but if you had CL12 and lvl3 proj, it was a lot easier.

The key with the mission is the captain is usually among a bunch of other militia, so you wanted to kite him from a distance where none of the others could see you, pull him away and then take him one on one.

The problem now, is there is not a way to get to him without being seen by the rest. I had my PP with my PW constantly putting the shield recharge on him while he's getting bombed away on by the captain and 3 bombers, my PW died 4 times before I could complete the mission. (it was actually 5 times, but I didn't count the first one, someone else was in the area doing the same mission and there were actually two captains spawned in the same place, both of which targeted my PW and made short work of him)

[Vinzent Zeppelin[IS]]

I don't think this is so much a "temporary fix"; rather, a side-effect of the rewritten mob behaviour code.

[Tyran]

Mobs should keep to normal ranges, mobs that can kite players are a bit bs. Would be nice if more mobs than was the case during live would warp at kiters. Now those mobs had attitude

[afrodub]

Mobs should keep to normal ranges, mobs that can kite players are a bit bs. Would be nice if more mobs than was the case during live would warp at kiters. Now those mobs had attitude

Im all for bringing back the warping abilty for mobs, as long as they have a "engage warp cooldown/engage" and warping graphic so you know they are warping.

Cia

[afrodub]

I don't think this is so much a "temporary fix"; rather, a side-effect of the rewritten mob behaviour code.

No im pretty sure, its not a side effect, and it is 100% intentional.

MOBs also have a running away defence too. They can fire their weapons out to x2 range when running away, although the reload time is doubled.

[/qoute]

Qoute from Tienbau on thread:

https://enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/2237-missile-range-issue/

Shortened the teether and than added this to it.

Cia

[Vinzent Zeppelin[IS]]

Looks like I stand corrected then -- I missed that post.

[afrodub]

Looks like I stand corrected then -- I missed that post.

Sorry Vinz if my last post sounded nasty, not trying to be mean or anything.

Cia

[pull4rise]

and their insane scanrange when aggroed also not a side effect it has always been this way...but it wasnt noticable be4 the minions at BBG had their 11k hit range.

[Yuritau]

MOBs also have a running away defence too. They can fire their weapons out to x2 range when running away, although the reload time is doubled.

Qoute from Tienbau on thread:

https://enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/2237-missile-range-issue/

Yeah I never saw that post either, and I have to say, that's horse ****. So if a mob is running away from you, it gets x2 weapon range and x2 reload? Do players get any benefits when they try to run away? If not, mobs shouldn't either.

[afrodub]

Qoute from Tienbau on thread:

https://enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/2237-missile-range-issue/

Yeah I never saw that post either, and I have to say, that's horse ****. So if a mob is running away from you, it gets x2 weapon range and x2 reload? Do players get any benefits when they try to run away? If not, mobs shouldn't either.

reload time is doubled... so if they have a reload time of 10 seconds, it goes to 20 seconds.... doubled... not half'd...

Cia

[seekeronos]

+5 to this thread.

Either juice up the hitting power (say, like a month or two ago when you had Desash love tapping OL150 PWs for 8,000 per hit or more) or put the wretched gravlink/engine hack back in....

...but don't gimp Terrans/kiters by having mobs that have unlimited scan range + weapons ranges in double or triple that of ML users.

This decision is a great way to kill any interest in the game, much less funding for it.

[bondct]

/signed I approve this post... kiting especially for the non warrior terrans is stupid at this point... you now have to circle around them and try to stay in there stupid tether range... and their range needs to be cut back... the whole premise of the terran was TO BE ABLE TO kite... and beleive me... kiting is not the funnest method of combat... would rather dive in and chew them up... and just hit fire and turn... but thats not really an option...

and puhlez... all you jenpies... go post in a different thread... we dont care if you wanna see us terrans nerfed

[dcwestby]

Amen.. I was just on my scout trying to kite.. and mob ran away, but in its running away, never fired on me from nearly point blank range and my scout has a 2k sig... So yeah, this is signed. I agree that the tether should be lengthened considerably.

[afrodub]

and puhlez... all you jenpies... go post in a different thread... we dont care if you wanna see us terrans nerfed

Avani,

thank you for agreeing, but there was no flaming going on, and no need for flaming the jenquais. there was just someone of the jenquai race agreeing with this thread...

Thanks,

Cia

[Yuritau]

reload time is doubled... so if they have a reload time of 10 seconds, it goes to 20 seconds.... doubled... not half'd...

Cia

I never said anything got halved.

[afrodub]

I never said anything got halved.

heh i read your post as 2x weapon speed

[ghent96]

There has to be some way of keeping the mobs around & inside their correct spawn zones. Some sort of tethering and/or return system has to be used, to ensure a player cannot train a mob off to the corner of a sector and "dump" it there, permanently denying others from finding/hunting it.

Give the devs time on programming the AI behavior of mobs. It's probably pretty difficult. Good AI mobs in any game are hard to find.

[Tienbau]

I toned this behaviour down a bit, just testing some different things.

Try it now, see if it's a bit better.

[Yuritau]

There has to be some way of keeping the mobs around & inside their correct spawn zones. Some sort of tethering and/or return system has to be used, to ensure a player cannot train a mob off to the corner of a sector and "dump" it there, permanently denying others from finding/hunting it.

Give the devs time on programming the AI behavior of mobs. It's probably pretty difficult. Good AI mobs in any game are hard to find.

Why not something like:

if hostile targets within <range>

fight & follow

elseif

turn around and fly back to <co-ords>

if target re-enters <range>

stop running, fight & follow

end if

end if

so you can kite it as far as you want, but if you leave it, it just flies back to it's home.

[afrodub]

There has to be some way of keeping the mobs around & inside their correct spawn zones. Some sort of tethering and/or return system has to be used, to ensure a player cannot train a mob off to the corner of a sector and "dump" it there, permanently denying others from finding/hunting it.

Give the devs time on programming the AI behavior of mobs. It's probably pretty difficult. Good AI mobs in any game are hard to find.

In live you could kite a mob across a whole sector, but if you disengaged the mob(you ran away or it killed you) it would fly back to its spawn on its own.

They would not teether at all when your fighting them.

I do agree with you on the Good AI is hard to find. But i feel that when the mobs get their skills back, they will be a challenge.

This teether and return fire while retreating thing is the issue at hand. Just dosent make sence to me is all.

Thanks,

Cia

[afrodub]

I toned this behaviour down a bit, just testing some different things.

Try it now, see if it's a bit better.

Tienbau,

Thank you for looking into this i will go give it a test once i get in-game.

Thank you!

Cia

[fuulishone]

I toned this behaviour down a bit, just testing some different things.

Try it now, see if it's a bit better.

Minor question, are the mobs attackable during their "flee" phase? If they're immune, then the return fire mechanic wouldn't need to be so severe or even in place. That may simplify things so that it's a matter of fixing the flee behavior and the tether spot/range. I'm not sure exactly how it's coded, but if tether was handled as a zone within a zone and not a single start point, you might be able to do something like this:

P------>|<--flee->|<----------------edge of tether zone---------------->|<--flee->|

<--10km->|<--10km-><---20km---patrol|patrol---20km---><--10km->|<--10km->

^ Ostarae Harvest

So the mob is normally within the patrol zone area. This would correspond to the area defined within the sector editor for a given mob spawn location. This would be sized according to whatever the sector designer had in mind. So for example, this would keep all those CL40-43 Shrooms in VG within 20km (made this number up, I don't know what the actual patrol range is in game for these mobs) of their primary location (Ostarae Harvest nav point.)

The 10km past the patrol range is their normal engage range. They can be engaged and will return fire in this range. If you circle kite in this range, then everything should be fine. It's a big enough range that circle kites should be effective as a tactic, but small enough to prevent issues.

The flee range is the edge of their kite zone. If you pull them into this range, they can still be engaged and will take damage, but they will increase their travel speed by 50%, effectively making them reach their flee boundary sooner (and thus harder to control.) Once they get pulled past the flee zone, they will enter a fleeing state. They will disengage and drop primary aggro rules and return to the edge of the patrol zone. They maintain their +50% travel speed until they've reached safety, at which point they revert back to normal behavior. They cannot be engaged and will not take any damage while traveling through the flee zone with the flee state on.

Once they reach the edge of tether zone, they return to normal speed and can take damage again. At this point they can be re-engaged by firing upon them and combat proceeds normally. If you pull them past the edge of flee, they will once again turn around, become immune and return to their safe zone.

The aggro drop mentioned earlier is to prevent rubber-banding of the mobs. Regular aggro should kick in once flee state has dropped. If the mob is non-aggressive then it will ignore you. If the mob is cautious, then it *may* remember you and choose to attack you if you get too close to it. If the mob is aggressive, then it will remember you and chase you down per normal aggression rules. Scan range and visibility needs to be working properly for all this to make sense.

Anyways, it's just an idea/suggestion. Not fully baked, so I'm sure there's holes/problems with it.