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TS and L8 Shields


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I was just reading some other posts on the poor TS and it just hit me why L8 shield is total fail for them where as JE can deal with it...

First, the L8 shield has about 40k points where the L9 has about 100k, and there is no L8 shield that is centered around the fact that a TS will be using it.

Yeah, but it works for a JE... and then I started to think about what my JE did in live in groups and raids... well combat started from well out of beam range so mostly he was support class, topping of reactors, stealthing the group to get in close, raising the dead... and with a base sig of .5 he was able to keep a low profile... and if we did get close enough to fire a few beam blasts... the missle/projectile people already had a hard lock on aggro...

So why doesnt a L8 shield work for TS... well lets see... I guess first there are all the support skills that the TS adds to a grp... oh wait... nvm... well he can raise the dead... hmmm... but with a 2.5 base sig he will prob wind up dead himself... well he does have long range L9 missles so he can just start firing with the rest... but then again since he is missing 60k of shield that could be problematic...

so can someone please tell me exactly why a TS is a better choice for a group than a JE... cuz it seems to me that the TS has just cornered the market on the most useless class... and note, I am only comparing to a JE (which is very useful) cuz they both share L8 shields... and I didnt include JD cuz psi shield and extreme weapon dmg make them an obvious win...

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Avani,

One reason we do stress tests is to examine game balance. For overall Balance reasons, giving the TS lvl 9 engines and devices forced lvl 8 reactors and shields. 3 missile slots don't help either.

The idea of the TS is to be long range support. He should use his speed and missile range to draw the enemy away etc. The TS also has the ability to jumpstart and repair hull. You basically get the healing of a JE and a TT in one package.

In regards to TS specific weapons, they are on their way. Over the next few months this will be one of the goals I will stress to the items team. I have some spare time coming up, and I plan to use it to help the project.

I am glad you made this post for one main reason. You are correct that 2.5k for a signature is too high. It should be 1.3-1.7 (I forgot the JE's exact one, but it needs to be slightly higher than the JE's) I would give you a better number, but sadly I have to leave for work in a few minutes.

Tbohner

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Avani,

One reason we do stress tests is to examine game balance. For overall Balance reasons, giving the TS lvl 9 engines and devices forced lvl 8 reactors and shields. 3 missile slots don't help either.

The idea of the TS is to be long range support. He should use his speed and missile range to draw the enemy away etc. The TS also has the ability to jumpstart and repair hull. You basically get the healing of a JE and a TT in one package.

In regards to TS specific weapons, they are on their way. Over the next few months this will be one of the goals I will stress to the items team. I have some spare time coming up, and I plan to use it to help the project.

I am glad you made this post for one main reason. You are correct that 2.5k for a signature is too high. It should be 1.3-1.7 (I forgot the JE's exact one, but it needs to be slightly higher than the JE's) I would give you a better number, but sadly I have to leave for work in a few minutes.

Tbohner

JE, like all Jenquai have a base sig of 0.5 prior to engine put in. I agree something smaller for the Scout (than 2.5 but in the range you mentioned) makes sense, and some sig reducing equipment that's Scout only as well.

On the shield, Avani, there is one listed in Slayerman's database called Hyperian Frontier's Friend, that's intended for the Scout, I think that they should make one change on it, make it manufacturable like the Veiled Oyoroi, Sharim Prototype Shield, & Defender's Doumaru. Currently it's listed as non-manufacturable.

Edited by Terrell
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L8 max shields kind of stink at the moment, must agree with Avani.

Popped into Fishbowl to pick up a weapon (Smiter) at the invite of a few guildies who were slapping Zethren'Ti around.

Unfortuately, Zethie popped me at 7k away the nanosecond I came out of warp to pick up my new toy. ONe shot, thru 55k hull and 42k shield.

I'd GLADLY give up L9 engines for L9 shields.

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Also, there appears to be a game mechanic in place where the weakest CL member of a group is targeted by a mob without regard for visibility/signature.

Case in point:

Enemy is a CL66 Manes in Lagarto, approx. 13.5km away

Group is:

OL 150 PWx2 with top shelf gear (BB/FoTM/Blackbeard stuff)

OL 150 TE

OL 150 TT

CL 45/OL145+ PS

CL 39/OL139 TS (me with L8 shield)

Guess who the first guy to get one-shotted was?

Hint: it was the guy with the L8 shield :)

I know monster AI is still huge work in progress - but something to think about - if YOU were a CL66 manes, who would be the bigger threat - the TS with L7 weapons and L8 shield, or the max level elite equipped warriors who can lay down some impressive DPS?

I think I'd want to neutralize the warriors first, then go after the support "minions".

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Also, there appears to be a game mechanic in place where the weakest CL member of a group is targeted by a mob without regard for visibility/signature.

Case in point:

Enemy is a CL66 Manes in Lagarto, approx. 13.5km away

Group is:

OL 150 PWx2 with top shelf gear (BB/FoTM/Blackbeard stuff)

OL 150 TE

OL 150 TT

CL 45/OL145+ PS

CL 39/OL139 TS (me with L8 shield)

Guess who the first guy to get one-shotted was?

Hint: it was the guy with the L8 shield :)

I know monster AI is still huge work in progress - but something to think about - if YOU were a CL66 manes, who would be the bigger threat - the TS with L7 weapons and L8 shield, or the max level elite equipped warriors who can lay down some impressive DPS?

I think I'd want to neutralize the warriors first, then go after the support "minions".

This I agree with you on, the Warriors should be seen by the mobs as the biggest threats, since they do the most DPS. The mob shoudln't, for the most part, even care much about supporters by comparison, until someone fires off a Shield Recharge which should get the attention of some mobs.

Also sig should play a role in whether or not you're even seen by the mob, much less attacked. So I agree there too.

Edited by Terrell
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Making the mobs always go after the tanks would make the game easy. From a tactical standpoint, it is always better to go after the weaker support characters first. Just like in other multiplayer RPGS, you should try to take out the healers first, since without healing, the tanks drop much faster. If you concentrate all your effort on the character that is built to take damage, and leave the healers alone you will almost never win.

I do agree that the mob should target the first player that it "sees" until it actually takes damage or someone heals one of it's targets. That way it'll be advantageous for the PW's to equip huge sigs so they will be targeted first and not the lowly support toons with Lev 8 shields. :)

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I think everyone is giving too much credit to the mental capacity of a Mane. Have you seen these things? Giant circling blob ball looking things? In actuality I would think a mob such as this should have the mental capacity of a wild animal in which there are two instincts, predator and survivor.

The survivor instinct is obvious, this would be a mob that would run away at the first sign of a progen tank, since we don't have any mobs like this, we would have to assume that all mobs are predators.

IMO mobs should have two slightly different AI based on the type of mob. Manes, spores, dzurai, etc would have the wild animal predator mentality and the order in which they attack would either be completely random, or attack whatever is closest.

The "pilot" controlled mobs, chavez, red dragon, etc would have a more intelligent AI whereas they would attack in some predetermined order. Say certain types are more bullish and would go for the tanks first and other types are more strategic and would go after support characters first.

Just a thought.

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the TS is an explorer class....

explorer's should NOT have lvl 9 shields, along with lvl 9 devices, weapons, and engines

and yet another jenpie heard from...... can anyone see a jenpie terran war in the future... I can... someone write that into the game... we already know what side the progens would be on...

i dont think anyone is saying that the TS should have L9 everything... but I do think that whatever it takes to balance the class should be done, even if that means rewritting history a bit... and keep in mind as has been mentioned (and I restate cuz people dont read full threads)... the TS was never released into live... maybe cuz it wasnt finished? nah that cant be it... it hadds be just for spite...

yes, I'm sure thats it... it was spite that a company would spend profits writting code for 3 toons and not put them in the game for us... they wanted to screw us... thats why... or wait... I know this sounds totally insane... but maybe it was cuz they werent finished... and do you think that ea or ww would care as much about the back story in balancing a class...

hmmm yeah gl with that... they woulda rewrote whatever they needed to. they woulda put game functionality above all... while in the meantime we cling to the writtings of an incomplted bible...

Edited by Avani
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Seems this one's derailing a bit...

On the subject of an explorer class having level 8/9 shields, don't the PS have level 9 shields? Saying that the TS should be restricted to level 8 shields for being an explorer class is probably too general a statement.

The question is, does it matter if a TS has L8 vs L9 shields? Under what conditions will this even be an issue? If the argument is that a TS, like many Terrans, end up kiting and therefore shouldn't be hit all that much, then what's the core problem with TS survivability?

For a JE, it's the combination problem of paper hull + low shield + weak guns. To solve that, JEs were given a super low sig and cloak. Shield leech helps a lot as well to compensate for the weak guns and short range.

For a PS, the problem was slow engines and shorter gun range, so kiting wasn't exactly the right combat style, so they were given level 9 shields and Menace. They're expected to tank a bit and blow things up like a good little Progen, while being able to manage the mobs with Menace.

For a TS (and I don't have one, so feel free to ignore or correct me), it seems like the issue is shields are too weak, sig is too high and no viable CC ability (except for a minimally useful Hacking skill). How to fix this? Well IMHO there's a couple different ways one could approach this...

- Give TS the L9 shield skill and call it a day. They are still restricted to L8 reactors, so the extra 60k or so of survivability really isn't that big an issue. The sig is still high enough that a careless TS will still get themselves killed. Without HDC, there's little danger of a balance issue coming from a TS tanking things they aren't supposed to. Their speed is still fast, so kiting remains viable (so long as mob ranges are fixed to be reasonable when compared to missile ranges at the appropriate combat levels).

- Alternatively, fix the base sig to be much lower so that it's comparable to the other explorer classes without being too small. By reducing visibility this should naturally improve survivability and risk.

- Keep shields at L8, but give a new skill that's a temporary increase in damage mitigation, sort of like a cross between Rally and Psi Shield. It's not the TT Shield Charging skill since it doesn't add to base shield and isn't a long lasting buff, but instead could have a separate meter like Psi Shield that causes it to drop after certain amount of damage has been mitigated. It would temporarily increase the deflect cap and add a certain amount of deflect across the board depend on the TS' skill level. Something like this perhaps:

--- L1: Increase a player's maximum deflects to 60 and provide +15 points of protection against impact and explosive damage. Self only

--- L2: Increase the protection provided to +20 points of protection against energy, impact and explosive.

--- L3: Increase a player's maximum deflects to 65 and provide +20 points of protection against plasma, chemical, energy, impact, and explosive damage. May be used on group members.

--- L4: Increase the protection provided to +25 points of protection against plasma, chemical, energy, impact and explosive damage.

--- L5: Increase all group member's (within 2.5km range) maximum deflects to 75 and provide +25 points of protection against psi, plasma, chemical, energy, impact and explosive damage. No target needed, AoE buff.

- Lastly... you *could* give TS the Befriend skill, but make it actually work in a way that's reasonable. Make it scale in range appropriately as a TS increases in levels (say 10km range at max), it's single target (at low levels, at high levels it could be social target), non-aggro (so the act of debuffing a non-engaged mob with Befriend doesn't cause aggro as a side effect), and many other options. This idea is last because I haven't thought it through all that much, so I'm sure folks will hate this one. :)

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Another idea would be a mission to give ts a overpowered lvl 8 shield. Make ot 70k instead of 40k, not as strong as a lvl9, but stronger than a standard lvl 8. Making the shield TS only would prevent others from using it, and have it give a buff(equip, not active) to help with sig, or impulse speed, or both. Wether or not to make it manufacturable is a whole other debate.

Edited by Gobblu
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if sentinels get lvl 9 shields, I think enforcers should have lvl 9 reactors and/or devices

umm sentinels have had L9 shields since the beginning... what are you talking about...

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Everyone, thank you for your input. If you can please try to stay focused just on the Terran Scout for this topic. When you post a suggestion, if you can please put reasons and arguments for your idea including negatives of your idea. With the addition of the 3 unseen classes, there is a great deal of balancing that needs to be done. Now that the server is relatively stable and content is being filled in, we can start working on faction balancing.

Once I get a chance I am going to make a subforum just for balancing suggestions. The plan is to have a dedicated thread for each class, for unbalanced items and for unbalanced missions.

One thing to remember is that just because you make a suggestion doesn't mean it will be implemented. There are many ideas with pros and cons for each. These threads and ideas will be read and considered. I have played as a TE, a TS, a PS, a JE, and a JD. I plan to try every class to get a much more complete picture. Other developers are doing the same thing. Since we have many other tasks, trying new classes is a side side project. We already have several dozen pages of ideas for balancing.

So basically, stay focused and respectful and keep posting accurate feedback

Tbohner

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Alright guys, you've got to keep in mind that the Progen Sentinel is an explorer/warrior, the other two explorer classes are explorer/tradesman or explorer/explorer (Terran and then Jenquai respectively). I can't grant the TS an unfair combat advantage, it should not be tough enough that you would take it over another explorer. Something a few of you are failing to realize is that the TS as it is does not have all the skills I intend for it. Once it does, this will change the balance dynamic a bit.

Also, in regards to the tech skills, I can take away devices and give them shields, but if I do this to keep them from being too powerful compared to the other explorers I have to take away a missile launcher. The TS should fall BETWEEN the combat capabilities of the sentinel and the pure exploration capabilities of the JE. All in all though, we're not quite ready for balance. That's the next phase, as of now we're trying to make sure most of the major systems are in and/or represented with the closest approximation that we could work out.

Right now our big goal is improving the tools that the content developers who don't program work with every day so they can make more progress towards getting the game at a completed state.

Prepare your hardhats for the balancing phase, it's probably not going to be pretty for a while. :)

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Thanks for posting Kyp. Curious to see what the balancing phase is like. I suspect that the JT and PT also will get some work.

Edited by Terrell
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trading up to L9 shields and taking away a ML just creates the same problem in a different direction... the TS would be weaker than a JE with 3 ML's (3 beams > 3 ML's) , still not have the skill set of a JE, and the shield would be irrelevant as no mob would see the TS as a great enough threat to fire at, even if its sig were 100 (they would probably just make fat kid jokes)...

I actually like the idea about creating some L8 70k - 80k shields with appropriate TS skills... so the TS would still have to look out, but not get 1 shotted... cuz lets face it... the exlporer classes are not the primaries to keep alive... its tank then healers then warriors then misc support (if they even make the list)... I have been on my JE plenty and told that I was on my own to keep myself alive...

and if we are going to classify people then imo it looks like this

PW, TE, JD - warrior/warrior

TT, PT, JT - trader/warrior

PS - explorer/warrior

TS - explorer/trader

JE - explorer/explorer

Can you see what I am talking about here... the JE at explorer/explorer is or has been extremely viable cuz it (in live) was the only class to make reactors, has wh, js, 0 sig, and best buffing skills in the game.

All the other classes are viable cuz they are all part warrior (you could make an argument that TT, PT, JT are trader/trader, but with their healing skills it just makes them slower killers as they can stay alive)... I havent played the other trader classes... but I hear that PT is OP, and JT and PS can probalby also have decent weapon output along with useful raid skills.

So back to the TS..., a high sig explorer (a contradiction in terms, although it works for PS), with low shields so he cant take a punch in the end game... and supplementary dps at best...

Edited by Avani
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Ok, so the TS still is missing some skills? Can you give us and idea of what other skills it will be getting so maybe we can help with some ideas? I was just trying to come up with ideas that wouldn't break the balance, but help it become at least usable solo or in a group.

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Since I already agree with Scout getting a lower sig, how about 1.5 as the base sig for Scout rather than 2.5. It would make the Scout significantly stealthier than the Sentinel, but still not as stealthy as a comparably equipped (decloaked) Jenquai Explorer. Leave it's L8 shield in place, and it's 4/5 weapon/device combo.

That would make the Explorers as follows before they put their engine in.

JE = 0.5

TE = 1.5

PE = 2.5

By comparison the other classes are JW/JT 0.5, TW 3.5 (that seems high or maybe my TW is broken), Everyone Else 2.5.

In terms of sig the Scout would have an advantage over the Sentinel especially with being able to use some Jenquai equipment with reduce sig buffs. However the Jenquai would still be stealthier than the Scout. (which should be the case since low sig is a Jenquai strength).

Also looking forward to seeing what equipment will be added into the game for the Scout (as well as the other new classes).

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Ok, so the TS still is missing some skills? Can you give us and idea of what other skills it will be getting so maybe we can help with some ideas? I was just trying to come up with ideas that wouldn't break the balance, but help it become at least usable solo or in a group.

I'm not going to give exact numbers at this point in time, but yes I can give some details.

  • Afterburn

    This particular skill was a remnant from early documents regarding the game that eventually became live. It was meant to originally boost your thrust speed. Now with that in mind, since the game format changed so did the functionality (and worthiness of that skill). It has been reinvented a bit, it will be giving a bonus to thrust, turn rate, warp speed, and to a somewhat smaller extent avoidance capabilities. This means you'll be faster and dodge more. It will eventually also have some group wide effects if you spend enough points in the skill.

  • Nullfactor Field

    This one will be a type of energy field that will give the scout abilities to negate environmental hazards they can face. It will have a cost to the scout to prevent it from making them dominate the JE's environment shield. They will lose a percentage of the overall capacity of their reactor in exchange for an increased recharge rate and each level will include a new environmental effect that they negate or mitigate to some extent.

Balancing is to be determined going forward, so don't get used to anything as these skills do appear. Just know that the above stated is the intent for them at this present time.

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