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ThorvaldMarr

Critical Targeting Replacing Hacking

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Trading out Hacking which is mostly worthless for something that would allow the Scout to bring more to the group such as critical targeting, would add a bit more dmg and would be a great move for the class.

A class that cant build ammo as it is, and an ability to kill faster to use less ammo is awsome, which is one real nice point about the PS. And why not ... scouts are typicaly advanced fighters, such as First Recon, so there is no reason to not rationalize the change of skills. Already dealing with lvl 8 shields is a hard blow, adding an extra touch to dps would be keen. *edit* Oh ya, and they are called "Elite Rangers" after all :)

Just a thought to chew on. Scouts are more combat sounding than Explorer, somewhat like a Sentinal. I think scout, I think front line combat, being that I am military in real life. Damn it'd be great if this did happen!

Thorvald

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I would disagree, the Terran Scout is a hybrid of Explorer and Trader. (Explorer with Trader racial traits.) The Progen Sentinel gets critical targeting because they are a hybrid of Explorer and Warrior (Explorer with Warrior racial traits). Giving the Scout critical Targeting would also make the Scout a better fighter than the Tradesman. This is inconsistent with the other 2 races where the Trader is better at combat than the Explorer from the same race. (The Scout may already be a better fighter than the TT as it is now, because of equal firepower, better scan range, & more speed.)

The Scout has the max rank of Elite Ranger, because it's original title "Warrant Officer" sucks compared to the other classes as Seeker described in the thread Rank Names & Stuff.

As they are now, Scouts are between Sentinels and Explorers in combat capability, which is where they should be by comparison. Scout with critical Targeting may actually be more formidible than the Sentinel, because of the longer range of missiles compared to Projectiles, higher speed, and equal scan range.

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thanks terrell for your typical i am a je and screw ts knee jerk response... people are playing scouts cuz the ship is cool and they are terran... but they are also hurting... being inbetween a PS and a JE means you are useless... your an explorer so fighting and trading are not your main strengths (not that trade is a strength its just time)... but your not as tough or feared as a PS, and not as stealthy and low sig as a je... so where the hell is the poor scout then?

usually I like to say imo so as to not speak for the world... but this next statement is just a fact whether you choose to believe it or not... more impulse speed for a scout is USELESS!. You bring nothing to the table in a group or raid. I have killed every last thing that there is to kill in this game... repeatedly... and never was impulse speed an issue... so live in denial if you chose...

remember that scouts where never rolled out live cuz they were not finished... they were not finished not cuz the code for them was not written... its cuz imo there balance was crap and even the jerk-offs at EA realized that... so while on paper you can draw all the pretty balance pictures you want... in reality ts is the redheaded stepchild... as a matter of fact, I am gonna get my TS a make over and give her read hair :)

/edit oh and if I am so damn fast as a scout... then whats so great about extra scan range... most of the mobs are fat enough that you can see and shoot them from 6-8k away anyhow... unless you wanna park outside F-7 and scan bbw and shoot at drones while sipping mint julep's at the racetrack...

Edited by Avani
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While I appreicate your argument Terrell, I have to disagree as well.

The TS has a mix of skills. Ranging from Warrior/Explore/Trade ... which most every class does in one way or another. Its the degree to which those skills work that makes them more profiecent. The only thing that really makes the Scout an "explorer" is the abilbity to "mine roids" for base build components. Thats what the three exploer classes have to have in common. I see nothing wrong with having the scout class more combat oriented. But thats me, in the end, its up the the Devs to make choices, I just make suggestions as food for thought :) Terrans while not as much as Projens, are very Agressive, with a large peace keeping fleet, and a very agrresive set of coporations, such as infi corp. We dont have the "peace of mind" attitude Jenquie do towards life. So from a role playing point of veiw, we can justify the Scout being a touch more combat such as the PS via adding critical targeting.

With that said ... I see Hacking(useless) also being traded out for a Max lvl 5 Rally as well if the developers felt critical targeting was to much. That is if they agreed with you. That would keep TE's Rally well over the Scouts and give the scout a combat skill worthy of useing while they are mining alone and could use the extra umpf for fighting off mobs that attack. It still does not serve the over all purpose of this post, which is to add to the TS so that they add something more to the group, but it does give the TS a skill worthy of using to assist in a primary goal, which is to mine. I still like critical targeting more, but thats just me again wishing for the best.

Thorvald

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Ok, I can see both sides of the fence having valid points. Having dabbled in a TE in live, I actually used hacking very little, and considering that about 55-60% of the mobs in the game are organics. Hacking doesnt really make sense when fighting manes. I reguard hacking as useless at the moment myself, course, as I only have it at low level on my scout as she's cl 11....

As to balance, yeah, I can see that... JE=pure explorer. TS=the trading explorer. PS=the fighting explorer. Who stands to make the most money between the three classes tho? I dont think its the Scout, who still has to find ammo to feed MLs, even with negotiate, she loses money in ammo costs. The JE of course has the potential for most profit... Anyway, I'm strasying a bit far...

Having a 100k shield would certainly be nice, but thats not the idea for 2 thirds of the explorer classes. No the idea behind explorer type classes is to hide. Why havent the terrans come up with their own variation of stealth to counter the powerdown and cloak of the other races? Or is it that terrans have this overconfidence mentality as to think they dont need a stealth skill at all?

Speaking of scout skills, there's at least one more to add right? If scouts are meant to be long range support, why not have an additional skill that increases weapon range with the longest range boost to missiles, medium boost to projectiles and short range boost to beams? That would be an excellent group skill bonus for the scout to have I think. or would there be problems with that?

Edited by Zethro
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thanks terrell for your typical i am a je and screw ts knee jerk response... people are playing scouts cuz the ship is cool and they are terran... but they are also hurting... being inbetween a PS and a JE means you are useless... your an explorer so fighting and trading are not your main strengths (not that trade is a strength its just time)... but your not as tough or feared as a PS, and not as stealthy and low sig as a je... so where the hell is the poor scout then?

usually I like to say imo so as to not speak for the world... but this next statement is just a fact whether you choose to believe it or not... more impulse speed for a scout is USELESS!. You bring nothing to the table in a group or raid. I have killed every last thing that there is to kill in this game... repeatedly... and never was impulse speed an issue... so live in denial if you chose...

remember that scouts where never rolled out live cuz they were not finished... they were not finished not cuz the code for them was not written... its cuz imo there balance was crap and even the jerk-offs at EA realized that... so while on paper you can draw all the pretty balance pictures you want... in reality ts is the redheaded stepchild... as a matter of fact, I am gonna get my TS a make over and give her read hair :)

/edit oh and if I am so damn fast as a scout... then whats so great about extra scan range... most of the mobs are fat enough that you can see and shoot them from 6-8k away anyhow... unless you wanna park outside F-7 and scan bbw and shoot at drones while sipping mint julep's at the racetrack...

I would disagree that Scouts are useless, have played one, and she can do something my JE has difficulty with, kill things well over her combat level by kiting with missiles. (best I ever did was CL58 in Live with a JE and it took tactics, PLs, Coma, and Fold Space) The bigger scan range is useful in finding those orefields (an Explorer skill), and spotting danger from further away. Scout can see the danger coming a mile (well actually more than that comparably equipped) further away than the other Terrans.

You do bring something to the table, you make your group faster, you can patch hulls, JS people when they need it, & bring just as much DPS as a comparably equipped TT. Scouts, like all explorers can buff deflects, with the GETCo devices. If there is a raid where Terrans are better off using Explosive than Plasma, Scout has more readily available options to do debuffer duty (manufacturable Salamander line of devices) than the other Terrans (PE and JE can use Salamander, but makes more sense for Scout to use, since Explosive PLs are rare, and Explosive beams are non-existant).

In EnB Scouts, Seekers, Tradesmen, and JEs are supposed to be primarily support classes in raids. Warriors and Progen are the DPS guys.

While I appreicate your argument Terrell, I have to disagree as well.

The TS has a mix of skills. Ranging from Warrior/Explore/Trade ... which most every class does in one way or another. Its the degree to which those skills work that makes them more profiecent. The only thing that really makes the Scout an "explorer" is the abilbity to "mine roids" for base build components. Thats what the three exploer classes have to have in common. I see nothing wrong with having the scout class more combat oriented. But thats me, in the end, its up the the Devs to make choices, I just make suggestions as food for thought :) Terrans while not as much as Projens, are very Agressive, with a large peace keeping fleet, and a very agrresive set of coporations, such as infi corp. We dont have the "peace of mind" attitude Jenquie do towards life. So from a role playing point of veiw, we can justify the Scout being a touch more combat such as the PS via adding critical targeting.

With that said ... I see Hacking(useless) also being traded out for a Max lvl 5 Rally as well if the developers felt critical targeting was to much. That is if they agreed with you. That would keep TE's Rally well over the Scouts and give the scout a combat skill worthy of useing while they are mining alone and could use the extra umpf for fighting off mobs that attack. It still does not serve the over all purpose of this post, which is to add to the TS so that they add something more to the group, but it does give the TS a skill worthy of using to assist in a primary goal, which is to mine. I still like critical targeting more, but thats just me again wishing for the best.

Thorvald

The things that make the Scout an Explorer are Prospect, Scan 5 (as a non JQ), an expanded base scan range of 5.0 rather than the 3.5 that all non-explorers get, and Jumpstart.

Scout has a benefit to Trade, from the larger cargo hold, and Negotiate the other explorers don't have. As a miner, over the long term Scout will make more money than a JE or PE. (as it should be since Terrans are all about the money) Likely the same with hunting vs a PE, depending on ammo costs. Scout will also make more money than anyone other than a TT building devices, if they so choose. (can build from all 3 races, with Negotiate, while PE and JE are race restricted)

I could support making Scout have more support skills, and more useful devices to bring to the battle, but critical targeting (something a TT also doesn't have) should be for the warrior classes and the Progen.

I could also support replacing hacking with a support skill that has yet to be created for the Scout (an exclusive skill). But not a warrior skill.

Edited by Terrell
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Speaking of scout skills, there's at least one more to add right? If scouts are meant to be long range support, why not have an additional skill that increases weapon range with the longest range boost to missiles, medium boost to projectiles and short range boost to beams? That would be an excellent group skill bonus for the scout to have I think. or would there be problems with that?

+1 to this. Seems like a pretty simple way to make TS desirable for combat groups, without the potential balance issues that may be caused by something like Critical Targeting. If the range boost was percentage based and stacking, then you wouldn't need to have different ranges for different weapon types, just a simple 15-20% increase would already be huge.

A different approach which might be interesting is to allow the TS to choose a lore specialty. In essence giving the TS the ability to unlock either Jenquai-only or Progen-only devices. The goal/purpose for unlocking is so that a TS could bring more device options to any combat group they might find themselves in. For example, a Jenq aligned TS might be allowed to use the Musca line of devices which are currently Jenq only and provide an activated reduce sig buff. Or the TS might be Progen aligned and be allowed to use the Basilisk line of chem debuffers, or the Burden line of speed debuffers.

Folks need to think on this one a bit and look for potential issues.

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That would keep TE's Rally well over the Scouts and give the scout a combat skill worthy of useing while they are mining alone and could use the extra umpf for fighting off mobs that attack.

+1 to this -- Rally 5 would rock.

It would be a good interim solution until a new skill could be worked in.

..

Concerning Impulse speed... I'd much rather see a bonus to *acceleration* rather than to raw that was unique to TS.

Pressing "A" and going from 0 to 960 takes me about agood 15-20sec.

I'd like to tap that button and get to 960 in about 2sec.(that would be a good use for "Afterburn", if you ask me,and puts the TS beyond the range of most mobs in a few sec: this would make the TS a heck of a good puller, rivaled by the JD with his summon enemy.)

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+1 to this -- Rally 5 would rock.

It would be a good interim solution until a new skill could be worked in.

..

Concerning Impulse speed... I'd much rather see a bonus to *acceleration* rather than to raw that was unique to TS.

Pressing "A" and going from 0 to 960 takes me about agood 15-20sec.

I'd like to tap that button and get to 960 in about 2sec.(that would be a good use for "Afterburn", if you ask me,and puts the TS beyond the range of most mobs in a few sec: this would make the TS a heck of a good puller, rivaled by the JD with his summon enemy.)

I actually can agree with Afterburn increasing a Scout's acceleration rate, and top impulse speed. But I think it should be an activate skill and require some degree of managing your reactor power. In terms of energy use it could work like Rally where it requires a specific amount of energy use to activate, and works for a set amount of time, or like cloak where it requires a smaller amount of energy to activate, and a small per second reactor drain. Reactor limitations should govern how frequently the skill can be used, rather than a cooldown timer, IMO. Buffs to the skill should either make it last longer, or require less energy, maybe increase the effect. (the reactor use should be enough to make a player notice, but not so high that it makes the skill not worth it) Low level ones should automatically apply to Scout unless other player is targeted, L6+ should apply to all group members regardless of who the Scout targets.

Wouldn't have a problem with a Scout having a skill for avoiding fights when necessary as well, since they have no skill comparable to cloak or powerdown.

Edited by Terrell

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Let me toss this in as well.... part of my argument continued...

The other advantage for the scout having critical targeting is less ammo usage, which I may have mentioned before. So, getting it Via directly from the skill itself, or from Rally, which is fair, as that is replacing a worthless combat skill with one that has merit, allows the TS to pack less ammo for when I take him to harvest. The more space I have in my vault the better, and if I have to pack a CRAP ton of ammo, more so due to the fact that my vault if FULL of the stuff as well because I cant make it ... another annoying fact, then yes, I'm going to fight all I can to do whatever I can to use less ammo, to kill mobs, and in turn take up less vault space along with cargo space since I wont have to store as much.

Yet another reason Crit tageting or Rally would be great skills for the TS.

Over all class improvment. IF ... IF now, the TS is more of a trader like you say, then Give me Build Weapons ... as the only Exlorer class to have that then, which would give the TS something that sets them apart from the other two exploer classes ... it would kill one of my larger arguments for getting Rally or Critical Targeting ...

This does not solve the "add to group" problem, but does help solve the ammo issue for a class that is built to harvest...

In the end, I'm glad we are tossing ideas around ... this forum was rather quiet, and I wanted to get some ideas rolling, even ones I might not agree with ... we all have opinions, and opinions are like bung wholes ... some smell worse than others :)

Thorvald

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Wouldn't have a problem with a Scout having a skill for avoiding fights when necessary as well, since they have no skill comparable to cloak or powerdown.

TS skill called "Decoy", in which a TS ejects a (non-physical object, in terms of game mechanics) device that absorbs the mob's attention and wrath for a few seconds.

Think like the sonar decoys used by u-boat/subs in WW2, or modern day chaff/flare/ECM... they run for a little bit, and fool most people andcertainly most critters.

But a smart NPC or "animal mob" might have a chance at seeing through the ruse (based upon the mob's CL relative to yours, i.e. dropping one against a mob 15 CLs over you will have a 50% chance of working)

The drawbacks: it doesn't use reactor power, BUT it requires that the TS have in his hold a stackable L4 item, with a stack limit of 50.

The item could be refined much like the roller presses (subcomponent of Duct Tape) from a variety of things, and the blueprint for it obtainable at OL50/EL25 from one of the currently underemployed jokers in Guiana station or Margresi station. At a cost, of course.

More effective decoys could be introduced to vendors a higher level recipe,and with larger stacks and greater effectiveness, such as active lures that track away from the TS who deployed it, or traps that temporarily immobilize the mob... or be targeted to particular mob types (organic versus mechanical, etc.)

The decoys would be Terran/Explorer only, since they'd have no utility to other classes.

And they'd be a bit pricey, most likely... since Terrans seldom ever do things on the cheap. :)

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The part of the Scout that's trader, is that bigger cargo hold and Negotiate skill (more XP/profits). They also get the Terran advantage of no racial restrictions on building/use of equipment. The same advantage that the TW gets as the Trade orientated Warrior (note that ALL the Warrior classes get build Weapons, PW Weapons only, JW Weapons & Devices, TW Weapons & Engines). The Scout's ability to build devices from both the Progen and Jenquai races distinguishes the Scout from the JE and PE as a device builder, in addition the ability to build for less via Negotiate 5. JE is restricted from building/using Progen Devices, the PE restricted from building/using Jenquai Devices. (The TW has a similiar advantage when compared to the other Warriors on their common build of Weapons). So I would say no, being part Trader doesn't get the Scout Build Weapons (since the Trader part is secondary and the Explorer part is primary). They are already distinguished from the Explorers by being superior device builders as a result of their advantages as Terrans (Build Devices being the common build between Explorers).

I can support replacing hacking with another skill, even a variant of what Seeker proposed or the skill Zethro proposed. However, I don't think that the Scout should have to carry an item to use a skill. Maybe if Decoy was something that set up an illusion or something similar, to fool mobs at a cost of reactor power. That way while it's power out of the reactor, it's consistent with other skills in that it's an innate ability of the ship, rather than having to use "ammo" of a sort. However whatever skill they get should be a L7 skill that's Scout Only. An avoid conflict skill works, a support skill like mentioned earlier works, or a combat skill that's new and unique to the Scout works (depending on the specifics). Depending on the nature of the skill, maybe it could be raised on Explore Levels. (Menace is Explore based even though it's a combat skill so that's not inconsistent)

Critical Targeting however, still has the balance problem of making a Scout an equal or better fighter than the Sentinel in terms of DPS and range, which should not be the case as PE is the combat explorer, also a better fighter than the Tradesman which also should not be the case (as none of the other explorers can out DPS the trader from their same race).

Edited by Terrell

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i feel like I am always saying this... but hell take negotiate out of the game and make all cargo holds the same damn size for all I care... credits are so plentiful in this game... especially once you hit L150 that I would gladly sacrifice all that trade crap for it... trade skills are passive skills in non-competitive not life threatening situations (ok maybe some market competition)... I will take a skill that is gonna save my life or make me kill better or live longer any day...

money is simple its just a matter of work x time equals credits... combat is not that simple... its a challenge, competitive on a much larger scale... now I agree that ts should not get crit targ as that would be op... but give them sumtin... they need a "YES!" skill... a "WooHoo!" talent... right now all they have and all I hear talk about giving them is a "phew" skill...

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i feel like I am always saying this... but hell take negotiate out of the game and make all cargo holds the same damn size for all I care... credits are so plentiful in this game... especially once you hit L150 that I would gladly sacrifice all that trade crap for it... trade skills are passive skills in non-competitive not life threatening situations (ok maybe some market competition)... I will take a skill that is gonna save my life or make me kill better or live longer any day...

You might want to consider playing progen or jenpie then :)

As for the topic...

The crit does not neccesarily have to read level 5 = 50% crit. Could always be 33% crit or something like it at level 5. I'm pretty sure that only means copy pasting the original crit and changing some numbers. But crit is a pretty dull replacement nonetheless.

Build weapons is pretty o-k to give scout, at any rate much more useful than crit.

But build weapons doesnt increase the reason to have a scout in a group in say a raid.

Would be nice if devs made a design-a-skill-contest instead of creating skills in a dark little room somewhere. But this forum is perhaps too inactive for that...

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There are troubles with that avani, Negotiate is the mainstay of the terran background and the main skill they have. If there was no negotiate, that we'd have to rewrite the entire story. Not sure you or anyone else would be up to rewriting the complete backstory..

It makes sense to not have build weps on the scout, even tho it certainly would be useful, but its not the path of balance as one certain Jenq elder would say.

I wouldnt really say its very inactive.. and I like your idea of create a skill contest.

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"It makes sense to not have build weps on the scout" quoted from Zethro ...

Zeth, let me know if you are making this statment on the sole basis that all explorers don't have build weapons as it stands with current game version?

Other than that simple fact, which is not that big of a deal to change I'd think, what other reasons might you have if any? As I really am curious if you had some other reason that I may not be thinking about...

To be honest, this is not the forums for the PS, but I think both the TS and PS should have build weapons ... how can you have a RACE in game bent upon useing a weapon system that requires ammo, and yet, a whole class in that race cant build the ammo ...

OR .... here we go, I got it!! .... Build Ammo Skill .... why not? This would rock too ...

Thorvald

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There are troubles with that avani, Negotiate is the mainstay of the terran background and the main skill they have. If there was no negotiate, that we'd have to rewrite the entire story. Not sure you or anyone else would be up to rewriting the complete backstory..

It makes sense to not have build weps on the scout, even tho it certainly would be useful, but its not the path of balance as one certain Jenq elder would say.

another je heard from... my point about negotiate was that it could be taken out of the game tomorrow and not have a real impact on it, the economy would just adjust accordingly and no one would be the wiser... if you were on a one person server you would give a crap less about negotiate... you wouldnt even put points into it... so people that say "oh what are you complaining about you have negotiate..." are just blowing smoke up your butt...

the ts needs a rocking signature skill like everyone else... and tbh I am not a real storyline person I am a gamer so imo screw the back story... history is written by the victors... although I know some people love it and thats cool too so I respect that... there is just no hero factor built into the scout...

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Ok, how about this idea, a skill (or device though that would use up a slot) ECM/stealth skill and make it group use at lvl 3 and above. If you do it as a skill, you could have devices that enhance the skill (like any other skill has). It would not take ammo, and wouldn't use a device slot unless you wanted to add to the skill. Of course make the device buildable, but TS only.

Another idea is a missile launcher that only TS can use that has a further range on it than normal ml. The reactor usage would be higher, and a bit lower refire rate (ie sniper Ranger).

Afterburn skill? Hmm, have it make accel faster, but use 2x the reactor power of normal impulse (just like afterburner on a fighter). Again, make the skill group buffable at lvl 3 and up(or not if it would skew the balance too much). This would help make higher level/pm engines desirable again.

Just a couple of ideas to help make the TS more helpful in a group. Something that no other class has, but skills that would be more targeted to what they should be IMO.

In a group TS could use ECM/stealth to lower the groups sig (sort of like je), make the group move faster at impulse, and limited snipe capability to draw the mob (less effective than js summon, but still helpful)

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Ya know what i want that would/ould be TS unique?

BUILD DRONES.

And one of them would be a Decoy Drone... to modify my idea some:

Hyperians (TS, they were/are technically Hyperia/GETCo employees) are skillful tinkerers, able to jerry-rig the neatest things that not even a TT would think of (given the explorer race trait; pure traders or trader/warriors are more "inside-the-box" thinkers - generally wanting to stick to more proven and profitable activities0.

Thus a unique build skill for TS could be drone builders.

The primary and initial level of drones would be for increasing mining efficiency, and most importantly metallic little meat shields that would distract that nasty manes from humping the TS's exhausts while he makes a clean get-away.

Later developments of drones could lead to higher level drones that do things like provide turbo weapons, hull or equipment repair (although never a rate to exceed the relevant skill of a combat class) or possibly even point defense.

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Ts with critcal targeting would never out danger a ps on the simple bases a non critcal hit is more detrimentl becase of longer wepon delays not taking into acount reposle fold. Sorry about spelling.
And Ty gets biopreshion and hack. Iv used a scout on averge I could kill stuff well above my level 1 mob 10 lvls above cost 12 stacks of 200% ogun amo

Ps critcal tageting max 2 is be happy with can always you'd device for higher level Edited by shadow80fs

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Oh one last thin I don't know if its difrent now but is usally lose mob due to staging it out side max range it fly back to spawn quicker then I couldfly like 15k in 5 sec

So I would ago dps isn't enough for firing style even my tt was far better Edited by shadow80fs

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i think replacing hacking is a great idea...but giving them a buff would be a better idea than crit targeting. the buff wouldnt have to be huge or amazing, just enough to make it worth having them around. When the game was live, there were not a ton of sentinals and explorers getting into raids that i saw, the redeeming quality was jumpstart and if you were a JE you became a portable battery.

everyone i ask says a TS is almost useless at high levels, which sucks, because they combine my favorite passtimes...JS'ing people, going fast while firing missles, and prospect. In live my mains were a TE and JE, so the TS seems like an obvious choice, but until they are a little more usefull, the TS is a back burner project.

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