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ThorvaldMarr

An increase to Warp Speeds on Engines @ 200%

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Just a quick and simple idea... (well simple in my mind, but I have not idea how hard to code/put in game)

As an engine builder, I understand the vaule of having a good choice and 200% build for a combat engine. Better buff rating on the engine, and more thrust for improved control of the combat situation. Both highly desired.

My suggestion, which isn't a large leap of change would be an additional 200 to max warp or maybe a bit less, for a 200% player made engine vs the store bought. Why you ask? When it comes to selecting engines, two things come to mind. I need one for combat, and one for speed for trade runs or other needs to get from A to B fastest for a mission. The problem here is that anyone can say, why bother getting a player made version of this, since store boughts all have the same warp speed as 200% player made. I undersand there is a Cap on warp speed as well, and as it's set now, I dont think anyone reaches it. From what I've heard, people still fall slightly short, which is good, because that means lvl 9 engines with an extra 200 or so to warp would get folks closer, and still not be game breaking. This would also place more vaule on lvl 9 engines and actualy getting that skill earlier instead of an after thought once skill points are sitting around to spare.

For this can explain why engine building is normaly, by most people, left to very few who take the task to do it. Personaly, I dont mind it to much, because I like doing what most dont. On the other hand, I would like to see a "need" for the engines that typicaly fill the roll of "I need more speed" to be player made to have an advantage over the vendor versions.

This would in effect make engine building more desirable, and give more reason for people to take engine past lvl 6 ... you can read so often how most people suggest that there is little need to take engine skills past 5 or 6(more so because in live the speed cap was 5k), and for some, as low as 4(though this seems a bit silly).

I know there are upteen million ideas and things that need to be fixxed or added, and I hate to toss another one on the plate for you Dev/GM types doing this on your free time, but since you are doing it because you love the game, I just wanted to throw out an idea that might be worth considering and implementing. Thank you for your time you take to read this.

Thorvald

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Certainly *something* needs to be done, eventually, to make higher level engines - and therefore engine building - more desirable. This is as good a suggestion as any. If this was paired up with some more engines with interesting buffs that could help.

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In Live JE had L7 Navigate, in Emulator the Terran Scout does as well. Since you could only go 5K warp in Live, and L7 Navigate added 750 to warp speed.

L4 Breton + L7 Navigate + L8 RR+ (200% quality) + L7 Charging Unicorn = Live Warp Cap reached (actually exceeded)

3000 + 750 + 899 + 750 = 5399 warp.

It's why I agree with those who say engines need to be improved, and give something worthwhile to max the skill and the build. There are some nice non-manu high end engines, but there are arent that many great L8+ manufacturable engines. SS8 and Intent of the Resolute being good examples.

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Making higher engine tech desirable, as well as higher quality engines desirable, is a good thing. But messing with warp speeds probably isn't the right way to go since it may inadvertently cause stability issues. (Any folks remember when you could go 10k warp or higher and the rubber banding that would occur when you did that?)

IMHO, better buffs and more selection would be ideal. Perhaps quality could reduce the negative aspects (like reduce the innate ship signature on an already *loud* engine)? Perhaps new items could be introduced at some point in the future (like level 8 engines) that give a unique buff that stacks with other current buffs (something like a warp optimization buff that would give an extra 150 warp that stacks with RR+ buff).

Regardless of the right answer tho, this is likely to be something that's low priority for quite some time.

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++ to what Fuulish said. There's still some noticeable lag even at 6k warp (the maximum warp speed DEVs can set).

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Making higher engine tech desirable, as well as higher quality engines desirable, is a good thing. But messing with warp speeds probably isn't the right way to go since it may inadvertently cause stability issues. (Any folks remember when you could go 10k warp or higher and the rubber banding that would occur when you did that?)

IMHO, better buffs and more selection would be ideal. Perhaps quality could reduce the negative aspects (like reduce the innate ship signature on an already *loud* engine)? Perhaps new items could be introduced at some point in the future (like level 8 engines) that give a unique buff that stacks with other current buffs (something like a warp optimization buff that would give an extra 150 warp that stacks with RR+ buff).

Regardless of the right answer tho, this is likely to be something that's low priority for quite some time.

I have to agree with this as well, especially given Cdel's comments about max warp. This Bogeril device in Live had a stackable warp buff. JE/PE only in Live. Had a restriction against Terran use back then, may be changed for emulator to allow Scout's use, as said restriction isn't listed in Slayerman's database. (same with Gizmoblatsit, Chili-Popper)

Loony's Hunk O'Metal (Level VI)

Terran Restricted (in Live)

Explorers Only

Not-Manufacturable

Not Tradeable

Additive Turbo Warp (Activated)

Additive Turbo Warp (Equip)

Description: Ain't nothin but a help to have this here device equipped on your ship. Won't hurt none.

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like i mentioned in another post... engines need to be given better speed and combat buffs at all levels and if anything base warp speed needs to be nerfed... because there is a cap to warp and once you hit around 4200 warp which can be done at L4 eng tech... many people seem to be content as you do get around pretty fast at that speed... and unless your doin trade runs you only really use the warp to get where you are going...

but keep in mind that these buffs have to stack and not be redundant... I was in a conversation earlier about engines, and my opinion was that I would max out befriend before engines...

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I have to agree, during "live" warp was capped at 5k due to server issues, and 5k is plenty fast enough to get around.

Having buffs on different engines would free up device slots, or add to debuffs, etc. and make egines something worth leveling up.

If I have SP left over, I would also add them to befriend instead of engines at this point, and definetly not building engines this ST.

Edit due to inability to properly quote lol

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Well, I've struck a well known cord atleast.

If we cant shake up the warp speed any, then I really liked the idea about a significant decrease in Signature for engines that are 200% player made ... that would atlesat help some engines be more desierable and not keep things so limited ... and more, useful buffs ... ones that would allow some switcho change was another good idea.

For example... the Eagle Engine line ... a cool option for anyone with Missles aside from one point ... its a huge sig engine. Nobody wants to use it due to that fact and nobody wants to clog up a device slot to lower sig to make the attempt to lower sig with it equiped. And even doing all that, there normaly remains a rather high Sig ... and later in the game, a lower signature seems to become even more important.

Thorvald

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+1 each to Fuulish and Avani.

We mustn't raise warp speeds any at the top end. Bottom end lowering, sure, this might be good. Good idea. Maybe this:

L1 - L9

1000 , 1250 , 1500 , 2000 , 2500 , 3000 , 3500 , 4000 , 5000 (GetCo branded terran engines only)

I think Jenq L8 engines should get one 4250 or 4500 max warp engine. They did, afterall, invent warp drive, but it was later stolen by terrans, of which, GETCo are better known in the backstory for the best engines, over IC. We may need to get a little geometric scaling script going to shrink the newbie starter sectors (new ones only) that are a bit large, and thus a bit slow for newbs to navigate, so they don't become bored, frustrated with new slower warp speeds. Ganymede, Mars Gamma mosly. I think Eq.Earth is smallish enough already.

Progen are slow thrust, slow warp both, L8 max.

Consider giving JT, PT, TT (all traders) access to use L9 engines.

Some players may want a high sig. Suggest no sig buffs to non-Jenq engines. Solar Sail line can be expanded by hunting the right types of Bogeril, by a mission line, or by building Bogeril faction (or all of the above). Jenq engines can continue or start a new higher level line with sig-lowering buffs like the lower level ones currently have (Mercurius?).

200% QL should affect: all buffs, thrust, charge time, recover time. (never warp)

To encourage use of engines, gotta get players excited about them. To get them excited about them, we have to have good & useful buffs, variety, access, more builders, (more incentives). JT, TT, TW, TE, PT should probably all build engines. We are no longer in the very segregated and limited situation of original EnB with only 6 race/class combos. Each race can & should build all their own equip internally now.

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The Sig lowering Jenquai engines go up to L9 they just change their names. Mercurius, Halley, Trifid.

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hi,

just out of curiosity can you describe the symptoms of the noticeable lag at +5K warp speeds? I think it's to do mainly with when you change direction - if so there are things we can do about that. It should be possible to push the max smooth warp speed up a little although at the loss of scan range perhaps - you'd be less likely to see MOBs and resource asteroids; I'm guessing that when you're using an engine that fast this loss isn't really an issue.

When the warp pathing code was first put in there were a few underlying bugs that sometimes meant the player zoomed off to infinity; in order to fix those a less optimal pathing system was put in. Those original bugs have been fixed now although the pathing remains the same. We could re-code the pathing to be a lot more optimal and hopefully there'd be less rubber banding when the ship changes direction, along with using ship banking to make the direction change smoother still.

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There's no point to 200 extra warp @ 200%.

As this gives 2 warp per 1% quality loss. Nobody is going to care about having bashed their engine to 180% as the difference is trivial.

If quality-loss were to have some influence it would be better for rebuilds and it would actually mean something if you damaged your engine.

Just an example of how quality could affect warp speed:

If 200% gave the full warp speed then 100% would give the half. So a level 1 engine with 2000 warp at max would travel at 1800 with 180% quality.

Ofcourse non-manufacturable engines would require their own fix, and the low end cap of manuf engines would be at 100% as not to let players travel at 0 warp.

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Hi

At the moment we have a warp cap of 6000k.

With the items now in the game, a number of professions with the right equipment can reach this cap. The rest can get over 5000k.

In regards to signature, again with the right equipment, the Jenquai can get to 0.0k sig, the terrans close and the Progens can get a significant drop.

It is all a matter of balance and trade offs. Players have a choice of how they setup their ship. To create engines that give you 6000k warp and 0.0 signature seems to me counter productive. Part of the fun, at least for me, was to acquire the right equipment to accomplish my goals.

I used the highest lvl engine I could in live because with the increase in thrust, it allowed me to continue to move when hit with mob gravlink.

So, I guess what I'm really saying is, I can not see any reason to make changes to engine stats.

Riia

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Teinbau, if there is a reduction in scan for the very fast warp engines (how fast?), can we get that scan back by using a slower warp engine?

I could see Ghent's new warp speeds for engines by level. Perhaps we should add 1 engine line made by GETCo that is great for Travel, but you wouldn't use it for combat or mining unless you had a death wish. Give it the thrust of an engine 1 level lower, a sig such that a blind man could see it from 10K away even at 200%, and an additive turbo warp buff that @200% quality makes it as fast as the average engine from the next level. Run it from L2 through L9. (Everyone needs to travel, but this engine would be specialized just for that and not much use for anything else)

I like the idea of having higher quality reduce sig, but I don't favor reducing warp based on quality, unless the engine has a warp buff on it. I'd rather see more engines with task specific buffs and stats, (Combat engines, Mining engines, travel engines, combat support, and some that are general purpose), and have the strength of said buffs be determined by quality and level. Engines would have between 1 and 3 buffs for the most part. (1 buff L1-L4, 2 for L5-7, and 3 for L8+). General purpose engines L5+ having buffs from more than one type, but less of a buff.

Uber engines should remain the same in terms of stats and buffs, but would have lower drop rates.

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Teinbau, if there is a reduction in scan for the very fast warp engines (how fast?), can we get that scan back by using a slower warp engine?

I could see Ghent's new warp speeds for engines by level. Perhaps we should add 1 engine line made by GETCo that is great for Travel, but you wouldn't use it for combat or mining unless you had a death wish. Give it the thrust of an engine 1 level lower, a sig such that a blind man could see it from 10K away even at 200%, and an additive turbo warp buff that @200% quality makes it as fast as the average engine from the next level. Run it from L2 through L9. (Everyone needs to travel, but this engine would be specialized just for that and not much use for anything else)

I like the idea of having higher quality reduce sig, but I don't favor reducing warp based on quality, unless the engine has a warp buff on it. I'd rather see more engines with task specific buffs and stats, (Combat engines, Mining engines, travel engines, combat support, and some that are general purpose), and have the strength of said buffs be determined by quality and level. Engines would have between 1 and 3 buffs for the most part. (1 buff L1-L4, 2 for L5-7, and 3 for L8+). General purpose engines L5+ having buffs from more than one type, but less of a buff.

Uber engines should remain the same in terms of stats and buffs, but would have lower drop rates.

Hi Terrel,

the reduction in scan range is really a result of the limitations of the client's ability to display new objects quickly. However, you could liken it maybe to a submarine, where if they go ahead at flank speed they're pretty much blind (maybe??). So for example if you're travelling at 6000 warp speed and you pass a large cluster of gas clouds. The cluster might be in your scan range for 4 seconds. Because there's a maximum on the number of objects we can send per second, you can see that the number of gas clouds we can draw in 4 seconds is a lot less than if you were travelling more slowly say at a sedate 2500 warp, when you might be in range of the cloud for nearly 10 seconds.

The main thing is making warp travel smoother. At 6000 warp you'll go shooting past a nav and then suddenly be facing a different direction back on track. There are ways of improving this.

I think we're coming at it from different perspectives. In game terms, there's nothing stopping us from going up to 10k warp speeds and beyond, but from a technical standpoint it's a bit more difficult to keep things smooth and all the objects displayed, so in answer to your question, yes your scan range would return to normal once you slowed down or stopped, as it's only a client engine limitation.

One new gadget (device maybe or another engine type) I just thought of which might add to the game is one that gives an increase in straight line speeds. So for example on those long legs through Jupiter you might achieve speeds above 6K warp on long straight runs but you would start slowing down for the turns. This way it might turn out faster to go via alternative routes that have better space-lanes.

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Thanks for explaining that Tienbau. I like that straight line speed boost, device etc. I think I've figured out how fast I want to warp when looking for those out of the way orefields.

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So, I guess what I'm really saying is, I can not see any reason to make changes to engine stats.

Riia

did you miss the part where people said they would max befriend before engines? just to fill you in... befriend is probably the worst skill in the game... 1. it doesnt hit that often and 2 you cant keep killing the mobs like with oh say menace since as soon as you shoot it befriend wears off... and thats just the start of how bad it sux... so when people say they would take that over max engines and how many people will never max out engines as they deem it a waste of points, what is your explanation... since you feel there is no reason to change engine stats...

engines should be a mandatory upgrade like weapons shields and reactors and devices and it imo is not... getting an eng built is real tough imo since builders wont waste the points in it... where weapon and reactor and shield builders waste no time upgrading those skills...

so please enlighten me

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Curious about Befriend, is it possible to cast it fast enough following a use of Recharge Shields to get those mobs that want to play "smash the trader" to back off a little? (Assuming it actually hits)

Compulsory Contemplation likely sucks even worse than Befriend. If it hits, no movement other than turning is allowed, or it breaks. Any damage taken by the mob makes it break, your reactor drains while you hold it, and if the mob passes a resistance check it breaks. The upside, you can use a debuffer, or activate another skill, without breaking the effect, but that's hard on even a JE's reactor.

Edited by Terrell

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did you miss the part where people said they would max befriend before engines? just to fill you in... befriend is probably the worst skill in the game... 1. it doesnt hit that often and 2 you cant keep killing the mobs like with oh say menace since as soon as you shoot it befriend wears off... and thats just the start of how bad it sux... so when people say they would take that over max engines and how many people will never max out engines as they deem it a waste of points, what is your explanation... since you feel there is no reason to change engine stats...

engines should be a mandatory upgrade like weapons shields and reactors and devices and it imo is not... getting an eng built is real tough imo since builders wont waste the points in it... where weapon and reactor and shield builders waste no time upgrading those skills...

so please enlighten me

Hi

There is nothing to enlighten you about. We have a difference of opinion I guess. I believe everyone is entitled to use what ever lvl of engine they desire. In live I had lvl9 engine build an had people who wanted to buy lvl 8-9 engines. I also used lvl 8-9 engines on my toons for the reason I stated in my previous post.

With a warp capped increased to 6000k there is already an incentive to get higher lvl engines.

Riia

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6k seems fair enough on the warpcap, however it must only be achieved through max level engines. So not level 6 engine + devices etc = 6k warp.

Incentive to go all the way is needed :)

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Hi

There is nothing to enlighten you about. We have a difference of opinion I guess. I believe everyone is entitled to use what ever lvl of engine they desire. In live I had lvl9 engine build an had people who wanted to buy lvl 8-9 engines. I also used lvl 8-9 engines on my toons for the reason I stated in my previous post.

With a warp capped increased to 6000k there is already an incentive to get higher lvl engines.

Riia

I agree. With a L7 Charging Unicorn @200%, L8 RR+ @200% , and a Crystalline Dynamo my JT can do about 5600 warp. If I were to bump up her engine to L9 she could go 250 faster and still wouldn't reach the warp cap unless she used an Ursa. The JE and Scout could reach the warp cap with L7 Navigate, L8 engine, L8 RR+, and Charging Unicorn. The other Terrans and the JT can also reach it with a L9 Ursa, L8 RR+, and Charging Unicorn. The Progen and JW cannot reach the warp cap, as far as I know, with existing equipment (in slayer's database) though the PE could get closest among those remaining classes.

Edited by Terrell

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After reading some comments, I read something, and I think I inturrpreted it correctly.

100% engines have the current known warp speeds at 50% of what they are now and 200% engines have them at the current 100% .... thats a cool idea too ...

I also read how Jenpies can get their Sigs so low using the known Merc/Halley/Trifid line of engines ... Thats only them. I toss on an engine thats not made by the Jenpies and my sig goes through the roof as a TE. Upwards of 10k ... even with a proper deivce to lower it and max rally, it still remains around 6k or so ... If I choose to be a shooting star, then I end up with any mob withing 15k attacking me, or I limit myself to the Trifid to get my signature to a reasonalbe lvl around 1.5k or so. I still feel reductions in signature of 200% engines could make for some good incentive to reach out and make use of other engines in game.

Again, the idea of adding/changing up buffs on engines to make some more desierable is aslo a grand idea. One problem I do know is that there are good few "awsome" engines that are out the for lvl 9 that cant even be manufactured ... so, that again makes building engines around that lvl pointless. As everyone will just seek to attain that engine and we all end up running the same set ups on our ships, and thats boring. Variation is always sweet in the end game. Whats the piont of having 10 lvl 9 engines if everyones going to use 3 and never use the others ... its like a waste of time even developing the other 7.

The overall idea when I started this post was to find a way to place more vaule in engines across the board from ones used for combat, and ones used primarly for speed... I started with warp speed, because many engines are only used for that simple fact, and can be vendor bought and no need of a builder is ever needed. That bothered me so I wanted to try changing that up so building engines and seeking engine builders could be increased.

There is always a NEED to get better weapons ... always a need to get better shields ... always a need to upgrade that reactor for more power ... and there are a vatriety of buffs used in these items that can sway someone to use some setup over another. With engines, a great many folks can over look it as before mentioned at some rather low engine lvls, and for the most part its a personal choice to use higher end ones. In the end, it would be nice to see people think about engines in the same manner that they think about the other base components of our ships. As a Need, and not an afterthought. Granted, for most, combat engines are thought of as a need, but with very limited choices, so there's not much to think on.

In conclusion. I dont want the devs to rewrite engines in game. So something simple like the 200% quality should = current warp speed on engines could be awsome in addtion to current engine changes. Maybe some buff tweeking along the way as been talked about by others and possible sig reduction for 200% engines as well... Ideas should be expressed and crtizied. I appreciate whats been said so far and look foward to reading more and maybe seeing what more the Devs think on the subject. In truth, if nothing will ever change with engines, then thats good to know as well, because then I will try to move on and think of other ideas that may improve game play.

Thorvald

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I like your line of thinking thor... imo it seems easily doable... but imo it still does not address the real engine issue... warp speed is really not that important... all it does is help with trade runs while you are leveling... and believe it or not... some people level up trade with loot from kills and roll over xp from combat explore once those hit L50 on those...

once you thi 150 all you do is travel from raid to raid... and with je's and jd's a lot of that is even moot as well... imo the bottom line for an engine is combat... you spend the first 15 - 20 days played leveling... (and only a third of that even remotley requires engines) and the next 100 or so days played (or however high you get) raiding or mining or crafting (the 3 main activities in the game imho)... I mean how many people focus on trade runs after L150?

also, if you think about it... there is only 1 class that I can think of offhand imo that even cares if engines get a boost... and thats the Terran Scout... between crappy shields, a redundant build devices, and crappy build engines that no one cares about they get the short end of the stick... I'll say it again... give the scout build reactors instead and forget about engines... any worthwhile buff to give to engines creates balance issues... and the rest of the buffs are useless... imo engines are not broken... the fact that its what was given to the TS to build is waht is broke...

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I'm absoutely for, having higher quality lower the base sig of all engines, but I don't think that Terran engines should have low sigs to the point that they're comparable to the Jenquai engines. Terran engines on the other hand should be faster than Jenquai engines, most of the time (both warp & impulse). If you want ot go fast buy Terran, if you want stealth buy Jenquai or a Bogeril Solar Sail. If you're a Progen and want stealth get a Solar Sail.

Now I could see GETCo, making 1 line of engines for Scouts that have a bit lower sig than most Terrans, given their influence with both the Hyperia and Sharim.

Most Jenquai engines can be used by Terrans, they just carry one restriction. Progen Restricted. Few of our engines are Jenquai Only, namely Pegasus (high sig), Compression Thrusters (newb engine), and Jhola's Strong Wind (which sounds more like flatulence than an engine). Mercurius, Halley, and Trifid are Progen Restricted, but there is no prohibition against Terrans using them.

There is one other option, for those who want lower sigs, the Bogeril Solar Sails L2-4, 7, and 8. Bogeril Solar Sails have 0 sig, and the L7 and L8 have good buffs as well. The Intent of the Resolute is a L9 engine that has zero sig as well, but that has to wait for the Mordana to be introduced. (The print dropped from the Mordana Purifier Philosopher in Live)

I do think that there should be more manufacturable engines that are desirable, at high levels, some with buffs, some with great stats, and of course the existing uber engines.

Also, is it just me or does the Terran Enforcer's hull have a base sig of 3.5, rather than the 2.5 that the other Terrans have? Progen have base sig of 2.5, and Jenquai have a base sig of 0.5.

Edited by Terrell

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