Constructive suggestions for improving communication, other factors

[StarSeekerVDS]

Kenu rightly blasted me for not providing useful suggestions along with my comments about dev and community communication. Therefore, here are some (hopefully) constructive ideas.

1. Make all dev forums (with the possible exception of the story forum(s)) open to PUBLIC READING (not posting). There is no reason this project should not be completely transparent.

2. Related to that, request that all devs utilize dev forums for intercommunication as much as possible, using other media such as TS and IMs only in cases where the forums would pose a hindrance to efficiency.

3. Appoint one or several members of the community with sufficient free time as liaisons (or reporters if you will). The purpose of the liaisons would be to communicate with and ask questions of the devs (probably mostly on Teamspeak), and synthesize and compile information to present to the community. These liaisons can of course go both ways, giving the devs reports on issues the community considers major for the devs to either reprioritize or respond with brief statements to let the community know that the issues are known.

4. Reorganize the forums to be more streamlined, informative and useful for all parties. (I sent a proposal to Slayerman awhile ago; I will redraft it.) They are not currently user-friendly especially to new members, and are a terribly underutilized resource.

5. Related to that, construct and maintain a more condensed and useful collection of sticky threads with such things as instructions, rules, team lists (see below), known issues, etc. The current stickies are quite messy.

6. Post and maintain an easily visible team list including the chain of command, whatever that is.

7. Some members of the community perceive that constructive criticism is often squashed by non-devs who regularly respond with comments that "the devs are awesome, STFU", "the game is free, STFU" and suchlike. While both statements are true, they are in no wise beneficial to the community. In their own best interest, the devs can and should publicly condemn this attitude.

8. Excepting communications that are actually disruptive, forum and in-game moderation should be kept to a minimum. Additionally, greater care should be taken in removing potentially disruptive communications (including posts by dissatisfied team members or community members.) As noted recently, summarily deleting posts is seen (rightly or wrongly) in a very negative light and in many cases could be dealt with more beneficially by simply talking it out publicly. Allow the community to draw their own conclusions.

9. Patch notes should be posted regarding any new release.

10. Copy and paste current dev team notes and plans and post them on an appropriate forum. If this is already done, see #1.

11. Some members have suggested recently that there are those in the community who believe themselves to be "in with the devs". If this is true, it needs to be addressed.

12. The Terms of Service should be revised, streamlined, made relevant to the current community, possibly have commentary added, and posted as a thread not as a separate document.

None of these suggestions should require substantial, if any, additional time investment on the part of the dev team, and they would improve communications and relations with the community at large. I have some related suggestions that I'll post when time permits (the brain still isn't awake).

[ladylex]

In support of 7, criticism of game mechanics, missing features, or terminal events (such a black holes) are ALWAYS met with STFU in some form or other. This is having a critical impact on both feedback that needs to be evaluated for merit at the developer level and retention of people most interested in the game and capable of providing useful feedback. Sure the team is doing this for free and will always be a special hero in our hearts, but the sheer amount of effort they are expending has to result in a successful product and no one could do that in a vaccuum. The community supporting the team in this pre-beta is it's own worst enemy in this case and has already shut down a wealth of valuable information, facts and opinions. The team must forcibly resist this pedestal mentality.

In support of 11, on several occasions during ST3 members of a large organization that were not happy with my current location or tactics threatened to "let the devs know, because they'd been told to watch out for people like me (by the devs)." While I believe I was within the designed game mechanics and within unspoken courtesy protocols, I still left the areas because I hate bullys and have a life's too short mentality. However, this perception that certain individuals and groups are "plugged in" to the devs is real, persistent, and imo widespread. I'm experienced enough to know player/dev relationships exist and there's nothing wrong with that...quite often these players provide most of the feedback the team needs, and in some cases become elevated to the team themselves. But when they use the dev bat on rank and file players to bully their way through the game, then it becomes the problem described by Mneme. This is NOT about "freebies"...this is pre-beta after all and handing out stuff to enhance testing, even if it's to the "chosen" few is part of the deal, again imo. It's about players, including betas, using their real or percieved power as threats to other players to gain advantage. The team needs to actively resist this as well.

Flame on

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Kenu rightly blasted me for not providing useful suggestions along with my comments about dev and community communication. Therefore, here are some (hopefully) constructive ideas.

1. Make all dev forums (with the possible exception of the story forum(s)) open to PUBLIC READING (not posting). There is no reason this project should not be completely transparent.

2. Related to that, request that all devs utilize dev forums for intercommunication as much as possible, using other media such as TS and IMs only in cases where the forums would pose a hindrance to efficiency.

3. Appoint one or several members of the community with sufficient free time as liaisons (or reporters if you will). The purpose of the liaisons would be to communicate with and ask questions of the devs (probably mostly on Teamspeak), and synthesize and compile information to present to the community. These liaisons can of course go both ways, giving the devs reports on issues the community considers major for the devs to either reprioritize or respond with brief statements to let the community know that the issues are known. [i would volunteer for this task.

4. Reorganize the forums to be more streamlined, informative and useful for all parties. (I sent a proposal to Slayerman awhile ago; I will redraft it.) They are not currently user-friendly especially to new members, and are a terribly underutilized resource.

5. Related to that, construct and maintain a more condensed and useful collection of sticky threads with such things as instructions, rules, team lists (see below), known issues, etc. The current stickies are quite messy.

6. Post and maintain an easily visible team list including the chain of command, whatever that is.

7. Some members of the community perceive that constructive criticism is often squashed by non-devs who regularly respond with comments that "the devs are awesome, STFU", "the game is free, STFU" and suchlike. While both statements are true, they are in no wise beneficial to the community. In their own best interest, the devs can and should publicly condemn this attitude.

8. Excepting communications that are actually disruptive, forum and in-game moderation should be kept to a minimum. Additionally, greater care should be taken in removing potentially disruptive communications (including posts by dissatisfied team members or community members.) As noted recently, summarily deleting posts is seen (rightly or wrongly) in a very negative light and in many cases could be dealt with more beneficially by simply talking it out publicly. Allow the community to draw their own conclusions.

9. Patch notes should be posted regarding any new release.

10. Copy and paste current dev team notes and plans and post them on an appropriate forum. If this is already done, see #1.

11. Some members have suggested recently that there are those in the community who believe themselves to be "in with the devs". If this is true, it needs to be addressed.

12. The Terms of Service should be revised, streamlined, made relevant to the current community, possibly have commentary added, and posted as a thread not as a separate document.

None of these suggestions should require substantial, if any, additional time investment on the part of the dev team, and they would improve communications and relations with the community at large. I have some related suggestions that I'll post when time permits (the brain still isn't awake).

1) There are quite a few forums that we discuss things in which aren't meant for public eyes. When we're discussing issues such as exploits we don't want this to be seen by the entire player base. Nothing eventful goes on in the forums you can't see, except stuff related to new content that we don't want you to see til it's in the game

2) I've no problem with this at all, TS leads to a lot of quick communication and many people prefer it.

3) No problem with this, just understand that we can't give indepth details. Not sure 'synthesized' information is good, given that unless I misunderstand that means manufactured, but we would be happy to provide information. If you want to post it publicly. Prepare questions, send them to me and I will get them answered. As I said in another thread, if anyone has a question we can answer I'll be happy to provide it if you want to contact me via PM.

4) Fraid I don't have the ability to do this, but what would you suggest here? When the IPB3 was setup it was hopefully temporary at first so we could restore the old forum but we ended up being unable to.

5) This is what the Announcements section is for that floats above each forum you go into. This is really all we can do. Pinned posts are only really used for information specific to the forum you're in. Hopefully they're not getting bloated but if you think they are and can be condensed let us know. We want them to be informative as possible.

6) This one is simple enough:

Board of Directors - David, Kyp, Aschera, ArmyMage, Kenu, Evermore, Cookoo with two alternates in case one of us cannot make a meeting, the alternates are currently Satanicexhile & Webby(Everyone reports to the board as a whole, this is the highest level)

Ethics Committee - Evermore, Satanicexhile, Michael/Sharylea (This group just takes complaints and listens to problems, they aren't really part of the hierarchy but if they see problems they can bring someone up to the board if in violation of the terms listed in the Code of Conduct)

C++/Programming and Development

--------------------------------

David & Tienbau

C# Tools Development

--------------------

David, Kyp, CDel

STORY & CONTENT Development (Reports to the Board)

----------------------------

Tbohner - Content Team Organizer / Story Manager (In terms of story and content team leads report to Tboh)

Kyp - Terran Team Lead

Freak - Progen Team Lead

Cookoo - Independent Team Lead

Kenu - Jenquai Team Lead

Content Developers (Reports to their leads)

-------------------

Peteburn (Terran)

ArmyMage (Progen)

Byakhee (Progen)

Evermore (Progen)

Hexergirl (Independent)

Webby (Independent)

dseewild (independent)

Pritcher (Jenquai)

Items Team (Report to the Board)

----------

Riia

Satanicexile

Aschera

Beta Team (Reports to development and the board)

----------

Arthurdent leads this team.

GM Staff (Reports to the board directly)

--------

Being restructured currently, obviously. We added a GM staff just in the past year..

(Known at the moment)

CraZBoy - HGM

Asmir - HGM

Tasha - HGM

7) Sometimes these comments give us motivation, given that we don't get paid. If we were able to be paid to do our job I'm sure you'd see a lot less of this and we would step forward and ask people to consider it. We don't mind constructive criticism in the slightest, if you feel it's being crushed contact Asmir in the forum or someone from the Board and mention it. If you're complaining because of a change on the grounds that you don't like it, it's not constructive. If you can give in-depth analysis of the change, that's a whole different ballpark. We're eventually going to have to go through balancing changes and there's going to be plenty of things people don't like. That's part of the process though.

8) Sorry guys, but there's absolutely no reason for anyone on the team (or leaving it) to take nasty opinions public. They do, and they get removed. It's not out of censorship, it's out of a desire to keep things fun. People who are leaving may try to sour you, we don't want that any more than you do. We want EnB back to a live state. In fact, many people frequently talk about the game at sunset, no Tbohner said the other day that the idea was for it to be prior to what happened at launch when we begin the story. We don't delete any posts at all, they're just hidden if they are inflammatory. No post is ever deleted if it can be helped.

9) This is why we switched to patching once a month or so, perhaps bi-monthly so that we can be more communicative and not just be pushing new stuff to you all the time.

10) This defeats any surprise ahead of time, no way there! We might give a few hints towards what we're doing but a complete layout of plans isn't likely since it would spoil the fun!

11) This shouldn't be happening, and isn't as far as we are aware. If you find evidence of it let the board know, it's against the code of conduct so we would take action as necessary to ensure fair play for everyone.

12. The Terms of Service should be revised, streamlined, made relevant to the current community, possibly have commentary added, and posted as a thread not as a separate document

12) The code of conduct is currently a document format, when and if we get a more streamlined portal site set up all the way we might do that, but a forum thread doesn't seem appropriate. The document is written to apply to everyone and everything and we ensure that it is followed. If you find anyone in violation, once again let us know that. We'll take care of it.

Asmir would be the guy to see for making the forums more relevant, he will be happy to hear what you've got to say on the subject. Like I said in the communications post, we've heard you and we're going to do our best to improve communications drastically with YOU the playerbase of Earth & Beyond.

[StarSeekerVDS]

1) Okay, so add anything related directly to server security to the non-public. For the rest, there's still little reason to keep it in the dark.

2) I think you may have read my suggestion backwards? I suggested avoiding TS and IMs except where there's little choice; use the forums for anything else.

3) By "synthesized" I should have said "interpolated" perhaps. In any case, it should be a regular thing rather than an on-demand thing.

4/5) I'll rewrite my layout suggestion which includes a cleaner way of presenting the stickies/announcements, hopefully Monday, and forward it to Asmir.

7) There's nothing wrong with "the devs are doing a great job". I agree fully. "The devs are doing a great job so obviously everything is perfect" is a common sentiment and not productive. Rarely is it quite hostile enough to merit moderation, so what is someone going to report really?

Regarding gameplay changes, honestly I think you would be far better off giving the community NO consideration and focus entirely on making the game function perfectly to plan (presupposing you have a plan that solid). The idea of people complaining about drops, for example, is ludicrous at this point.

8) Even nasty opinions usually have a reason. If someone gets pissed off enough to say something nasty, they can and should be encouraged to speak their mind and issues can and should be resolved transparently. People get angry over misunderstandings and those misunderstandings are no easier to work out privately. Attempting to do so just adds layers of he-said/she-said and allows for greater misunderstandings if not deliberate problem-causing.

Related to that, no one should be banned unless they are spamming or filling every post with obscenities or something blatant. Even a disgruntled dev can be a valuable asset if you take the time to work out the differences that can crop up.

10) Surprise and exciting content are for live, not a pre-alpha stress test thingamajig.

11) First, make the statement, loudly enough that everyone in the community hears it, that it isn't tolerated. Then you'll have the reports. People won't come forward with crap like that until they see the team verify that the reports will be taken seriously.

12) The CoC is badly written, poorly accessible, and far too open for interpretation. I can think of no legitimate reason to not fix these issues and post it right on the top of the forum in its own (locked) thread along with an information post with direct links to contacts empowered to deal with violations.

Thank you for responding. I hope I can be of some assistance with all this.

In closing I'd like to explain my reasoning behind some of all this. I have had plenty of experience over the years in different online projects, including several I led and several that I was only a participant in. I've seen projects that were very far along collapse and it was always for one reason: a rigid, authoritarian, divisive development team (less the devs themselves so much as their community management) that forgot that their interactions with each other and with their communities are as important as the work they were doing. I see signs of that here and don't even tell me that it's just a few disgruntled devs badmouthing the team because that's bullshit so transparent they'll be making bullshit-greenhouses out of it on Kailaasa. Problems like the recent blow-up, previous blow-ups, house-shakings, and forum attitudes are symptomatic of structural issues or at the very least poor people skills.

I've wavered back and forth on rejoining the team for months because every time I finally get stuff together on my end I see something else going on that mirrors blown-up projects I've witnessed in the past and I really don't know what to do. So I prod people to see what reactions come of it, and try to figure out exactly what's going on and if anything useful can be done about it.

My biggest word of warning? None of the other projects I've seen blow up ever saw it coming either. The leadership was always perfectly convinced that things were running smoothly and that any issues were the fault of the other guy, and they ran their projects straight into oblivion patting themselves on the back the whole way down the track. I would be very saddened to see this happen here.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

1) Okay, so add anything related directly to server security to the non-public. For the rest, there's still little reason to keep it in the dark.

2) I think you may have read my suggestion backwards? I suggested avoiding TS and IMs except where there's little choice; use the forums for anything else.

3) By "synthesized" I should have said "interpolated" perhaps. In any case, it should be a regular thing rather than an on-demand thing.

4/5) I'll rewrite my layout suggestion which includes a cleaner way of presenting the stickies/announcements, hopefully Monday, and forward it to Asmir.

7) There's nothing wrong with "the devs are doing a great job". I agree fully. "The devs are doing a great job so obviously everything is perfect" is a common sentiment and not productive. Rarely is it quite hostile enough to merit moderation, so what is someone going to report really?

Regarding gameplay changes, honestly I think you would be far better off giving the community NO consideration and focus entirely on making the game function perfectly to plan (presupposing you have a plan that solid). The idea of people complaining about drops, for example, is ludicrous at this point.

8) Even nasty opinions usually have a reason. If someone gets pissed off enough to say something nasty, they can and should be encouraged to speak their mind and issues can and should be resolved transparently. People get angry over misunderstandings and those misunderstandings are no easier to work out privately. Attempting to do so just adds layers of he-said/she-said and allows for greater misunderstandings if not deliberate problem-causing.

Related to that, no one should be banned unless they are spamming or filling every post with obscenities or something blatant. Even a disgruntled dev can be a valuable asset if you take the time to work out the differences that can crop up.

10) Surprise and exciting content are for live, not a pre-alpha stress test thingamajig.

11) First, make the statement, loudly enough that everyone in the community hears it, that it isn't tolerated. Then you'll have the reports. People won't come forward with crap like that until they see the team verify that the reports will be taken seriously.

12) The CoC is badly written, poorly accessible, and far too open for interpretation. I can think of no legitimate reason to not fix these issues and post it right on the top of the forum in its own (locked) thread along with an information post with direct links to contacts empowered to deal with violations.

Thank you for responding. I hope I can be of some assistance with all this.

In closing I'd like to explain my reasoning behind some of all this. I have had plenty of experience over the years in different online projects, including several I led and several that I was only a participant in. I've seen projects that were very far along collapse and it was always for one reason: a rigid, authoritarian, divisive development team (less the devs themselves so much as their community management) that forgot that their interactions with each other and with their communities are as important as the work they were doing. I see signs of that here and don't even tell me that it's just a few disgruntled devs badmouthing the team because that's bullshit so transparent they'll be making bullshit-greenhouses out of it on Kailaasa. Problems like the recent blow-up, previous blow-ups, house-shakings, and forum attitudes are symptomatic of structural issues or at the very least poor people skills.

I've wavered back and forth on rejoining the team for months because every time I finally get stuff together on my end I see something else going on that mirrors blown-up projects I've witnessed in the past and I really don't know what to do. So I prod people to see what reactions come of it, and try to figure out exactly what's going on and if anything useful can be done about it.

My biggest word of warning? None of the other projects I've seen blow up ever saw it coming either. The leadership was always perfectly convinced that things were running smoothly and that any issues were the fault of the other guy, and they ran their projects straight into oblivion patting themselves on the back the whole way down the track. I would be very saddened to see this happen here.

1) There's not much else that goes on down there, security, story, and content.

2) No no, I didn't I just didn't finish the thought I had there. Looked at the next point and continued on. Was trying to say people use it instead of the forums because some don't like to type much when it comes to the forum. We by no means espouse communications on TS only, it's just the way it seems to happen from time to time because we get busy and want to work and don't think to make posts.

3) possibly "assimilated", "accumulated", or "compiled"?

4) /nod

7)We do have a plan, and a direction/goal. So yes, we just don't want anyone's feelings hurt or upset when we start balancing. We know it'll happen anyway, because the game will become more of a challenge. It's expected, but so long as the comments are constructive, we're happy!

8)That may be, but the idea is we don't think most of the community DOES want to see it. We could be wrong, and if we are then the community can tell us as such as a whole. Looked at from another perspective, you think you'd see that on a professional project?

10) That may be, but it won't be surprise and exciting if we don't keep it under wraps, will it?

11) A respective lead must be made aware for the problem to be fixed, if it exists. We've fixed this sort of thing before when we found out about it. It's already in the code of conduct for just those reasons.

12) Give me some specifics of what you think is badly written in it, if you wouldn't mind. It's designed to be open, every code of conduct for any company I've worked for is written in much the same manner. The contacts I can do, any team lead for an individual reporting to them to start with, if it isn't handled there then report it to the ethics committee or us on the board. It will be dealt with.

Poor people skills in some case I'd grant, but in every case it's been someone upset with something and not approaching the team with the grievance. The structures of teams and the board are relatively new overall, in terms of this project's lifecycle, but they were necessary. With structural changes comes growing pains. We've not forgotten our goal and we've not forgotten that communication is important, this past year has just been very much us rushing to do new things and not thinking about clarifying. I mean it's all in the SVN, right?

You'll see some changes here soon in regards to that as mentioned in the communication post I made.

We won't see this fail, we've worked too long on it for that to occur. It will be reaching a live state. Many developers have come and gone, and the project remains.

[Whitelighter]

11) This shouldn't be happening, and isn't as far as we are aware. If you find evidence of it let the board know, it's against the code of conduct so we would take action as necessary to ensure fair play for everyone.

11) A respective lead must be made aware for the problem to be fixed, if it exists. We've fixed this sort of thing before when we found out about it. It's already in the code of conduct for just those reasons.

Reguards if you want to believe it or not, it is happening and it is becoming more and more of a problem as these people continue to get more brave about abusing it. I've had it happen twice with-in the last month. 2 Different people, same guild. Only problem is both times I ran into it I can't screenshot the chats, screenshots cause my client to instantly crash. ***NOTE*** Since the 2nd time I have started having FRAPS running so I can SS with it instead so have 'proof'. Both times the party I had trouble with informed me of the same things of 'what will happen to you if you mess with us'.

The problem is there, lots of people have ran into it, and to be honest - most people believe nothing will ever be done about it due to past ways the problem was 'resolved'. It sounds a little harsh I'm sure, but that is just the truth right now. And as far as reporting it to the correct people, while they may do a lot of work - I have never even heard of half the people you listed lol. I can't report problems to people I dont know are there, and even worse is I cant report the problem when (if there turns out to be truth to their claims) I don't know who I can trust, are they the Dev/GM those people are 'in with' or is it someone else? Makes it hard to really do anything...

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Reguards if you want to believe it or not, it is happening and it is becoming more and more of a problem as these people continue to get more brave about abusing it. I've had it happen twice with-in the last month. 2 Different people, same guild. Only problem is both times I ran into it I can't screenshot the chats, screenshots cause my client to instantly crash. ***NOTE*** Since the 2nd time I have started having FRAPS running so I can SS with it instead so have 'proof'. Both times the party I had trouble with informed me of the same things of 'what will happen to you if you mess with us'.

The problem is there, lots of people have ran into it, and to be honest - most people believe nothing will ever be done about it due to past ways the problem was 'resolved'. It sounds a little harsh I'm sure, but that is just the truth right now. And as far as reporting it to the correct people, while they may do a lot of work - I have never even heard of half the people you listed lol. I can't report problems to people I dont know are there, and even worse is I cant report the problem when (if there turns out to be truth to their claims) I don't know who I can trust, are they the Dev/GM those people are 'in with' or is it someone else? Makes it hard to really do anything...

White: If you're running in windowed mode that's why your client crashes. We haven't quite figured that whole bit out to be honest, most of us play in full screen unless we're working in and out of game. To be fair you're right, but at the same time the structures that we have now only got properly formed about half a year ago. (In other words the dev staff elected the Board of directors and we established the reporting chains)

This is understandable. Report it to me or anyone on the board, or the people listed on the ethics committee. The investigation will commence. We do have a log every single time a staff member creates an item down to the IP address, so we CAN find them, if we can determine when it was.

[Whitelighter]

White: If you're running in windowed mode that's why your client crashes. We haven't quite figured that whole bit out to be honest, most of us play in full screen unless we're working in and out of game. To be fair you're right, but at the same time the structures that we have now only got properly formed about half a year ago. (In other words the dev staff elected the Board of directors and we established the reporting chains)

This is understandable. Report it to me or anyone on the board, or the people listed on the ethics committee. The investigation will commence. We do have a log every single time a staff member creates an item down to the IP address, so we CAN find them, if we can determine when it was.

Ok, yeah I play in windowed as a work around to the CT bug. Didn't know that was what caused the crashes.

And just to be clear, I think it may have came across in the wrong sense or perhaps I misread it, I'm (personally) not talking about claims of Devs/GMs handing out items. My run-ins have been different than that issue, and to be honest unless Devs/GMs are changing graphics on items I haven't seen someone with equipment they shouldn't have lol.

[Azasha]

I personally have not had this happen and would probably be the person who told anyone threatening me with a Dev or GM where they could stick it. However, it seems the point is not getting out clearly but this is what I'm interpreting...

Several people have been hunting a Nav or a spawn to have "certain persons" in the game come up and try to bully them off the nav or start KS'ing them or whatever rude behavior these people think they can get away with. When confronted with it the person who was there first is flat out threatened by these individuals to have action taken against them by a Dev or GM who is "friends" with the absolutely rude and obnoxious player.

From what I understand most people who have had this happen to them move on as they feel that since they are being threatened by a "friendship" with the very people they are being told to report incidents like this to they are likely the ones to lose out.

Simply put the words "I know a dev / gm" "you don't know who you're messing with I know staff" or anything of the sort (edit) used in a malicious or threatening way (end edit) should be an instant permanently bannable offense on the second occurance if not the first. I would think that the Dev's / GM's and anyone else on the team would be personally embarrassed and feel ashamed of having other people go around using their position and work to make threats and create a very hostile play environment.

This is in addition to the items giveaways.

I know if I were on the team and someone used an association with me to threaten another player I don't care if that person was actually related to me or even my other half I would not only ban them myself but verbally mow them a new one the first chance I got. A persons integrity is gold especially when in a position of power.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Ok, yeah I play in windowed as a work around to the CT bug. Didn't know that was what caused the crashes.

And just to be clear, I think it may have came across in the wrong sense or perhaps I misread it, I'm (personally) not talking about claims of Devs/GMs handing out items. My run-ins have been different than that issue, and to be honest unless Devs/GMs are changing graphics on items I haven't seen someone with equipment they shouldn't have lol.

They couldn't really do this without changing every item in the game of that type. There's no commands for anything like that.

In regards to what you said Azasha, absolutely. We'll be happy to look into this sort of thing happening. It had best not be because it's a violation. The staff position is one of respect but only if you do your part and act as a staff member. If that staff member is doing things for a friend, they're going to end up in hot water. For example, were it someone on the Terran team, I wouldn't even wait, if I could prove it they would be outta here faster than you could cross Luna with a warp speed of 30k.

[Azasha]

Kyp unfortunately the accusations I have heard from various players is that it is directly connected with members of the Board.

If saying this puts my account into jeopardy so be it but I'm not one to hide or beat around the bush. That is why no one will say who it was or who were the implied staff members. The accusations and Staff mentioned in the threats are the people higher up on the chain and the same ones would would supposedly be investigating.

(edit) My suggestion is this. If it is happening and if there is proof there needs to be a strong announcement from the Project manager or the Board asking for this proof to be posted publicly for the entire community to see (so there is no he said she said) and then it needs to be dealt with swiftly and strongly. (end edit)

(2nd edit) A public posting of proof and public showing of consequences is the only way at this point the prove to the entire community that if it is happening it will be dealt with. Something private will not re-instill any integrity. (end 2nd edit)

(3rd edit) If there is no proof and none comes after this then great it means that some people took something wrong or the people doing it stop now that there might be a consequence either way it fixed the issue.(end 3rd edit)

[Davidr99 [Admin]]

Hey,

There is no reason for this project to be any different then any other project. You do not usually hear about why someone in another company steps down or is forced to leave. We do not need to be bringing up everything that happens behind the scenes to the public. Most of the people just want the emulator working and do not want to deal with all of the problems we have with people. If she showed you all of what has been talked about with let’s say AF_Vet it would really hurt many people’s view of him. I think it’s best that if we have people that are problems they are dealt with inside the project. Every project has people that bring problems to the project and make them a hindrance to the project. As the project leader I feel that in order to keep things moving ahead we need to take care of things internally.

Thanks,

David

P.S. We do have facts that had to be brought to the board.

[Azasha]

David I'm not in favor of bringing internal staff things to public eye. That is between all you. If dev's aren't pulling their weight or whatever strife is between the Staff that stays in the staff. I've been a Director and Advisor on Guilds, EVE Corporations, EVE Alliances, and part of the management staff in real life for work. Dirty laundry does not need to be aired about things like giving out items (who cares it gets wiped), people not pulling their weight (effects their peers not the players), and things like that.

However, when the community has players that are threatening other players with actions because they are friends with any one of the Dev's or Board Members that needs to be public. Both to protect the players (edit) who are reporting the incidents (end edit) and the integrity of the Staff. The community needs to know that they are supporting this project and that in return the project supports them.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Kyp unfortunately the accusations I have heard from various players is that it is directly connected with members of the Board.

If saying this puts my account into jeopardy so be it but I'm not one to hide or beat around the bush. That is why no one will say who it was or who were the implied staff members. The accusations and Staff mentioned in the threats are the people higher up on the chain and the same ones would would supposedly be investigating.

(edit) My suggestion is this. If it is happening and if there is proof there needs to be a strong announcement from the Project manager or the Board asking for this proof to be posted publicly for the entire community to see (so there is no he said she said) and then it needs to be dealt with swiftly and strongly. (end edit)

(2nd edit) A public posting of proof and public showing of consequences is the only way at this point the prove to the entire community that if it is happening it will be dealt with. Something private will not re-instill any integrity. (end 2nd edit)

(3rd edit) If there is no proof and none comes after this then great it means that some people took something wrong or the people doing it stop now that there might be a consequence either way it fixed the issue.(end 3rd edit)

Notice the Whistleblower policy in the Code of Conduct? That applies to everyone on the project, regardless of position. They cannot visit any form of retribution upon any player that comes forward with such proof. If a Board Member tried something like that it would be a removal from the Board and very possibly the project depending on what they had done.

[Davidr99 [Admin]]

David I'm not in favor of bringing internal staff things to public eye. That is between all you. If dev's aren't pulling their weight or whatever strife is between the Staff that stays in the staff. I've been a Director and Advisor on Guilds, EVE Corporations, EVE Alliances, and part of the management staff in real life for work. Dirty laundry does not need to be aired about things like giving out items (who cares it gets wiped), people not pulling their weight (effects their peers not the players), and things like that.

However, when the community has players that are threatening other players with actions because they are friends with any one of the Dev's or Board Members that needs to be public. Both to protect the players (edit) who are reporting the incidents (end edit) and the integrity of the Staff. The community needs to know that they are supporting this project and that in return the project supports them.

I can understand that we both need to support each other, and I do not see where we are not. I spend ALOT of time on this project as I have been around and working on the server/tools for 4 years. I do not see where any of us are not supporting the project or the users.

[StarSeekerVDS]

Chicken and egg.

It's been said by a variety of people including former devs and players alike that there are issues regarding the board members. It has not led to these board members being removed. Therefore, what possible hope does Joe Sha'Ha'Dem have of accomplishing anything by reporting issues that are secondary to the (alleged) ethics issues regarding the board members?

If one of you "board members" (and I don't have any specifics to indicate who or what, only too many rumors for things to possibly be hunky-dory and I haven't even been looking for them) is behaving in a way that jeopardizes the project, I want you GONE. If you're enabling some dimwit to threaten other players as the previous posters have suggested, I don't care half as much as I do about potential unethical behavior causing harm to the goal of finishing the emulator. Wipe characters weekly and that problem is solved.

Titles and power should not exist in this project! If titles and power are causing any sorts of difficulties that diminish the project--and pissing off devs into quitting is about as severe a diminishing as can exist--then you need to get rid of them.

The "board", "ethics committee", "leader of X team" should be directly answerable to the community and no-confidence votes should be an option for disposing of anyone who is damaging the project. And that requires transparency.

Anyone internal or external to the dev team should be allowed and encouraged to publicly cite (with all possible evidence) any violations of the CoC. Yes, that would be initially messy especially with the obvious issues going on here. But it would smooth itself out after awhile and from what I can tell the bulk of the devs and board who actually move the project forward would not be much affected.

[Davidr99 [Admin]]

Not sure what your talking about. Our board of directors is fine. We have had no problems at all with people on the board. We only had a problem with one of our game masters and that problem as been solved.

[Azasha]

I can understand that we both need to support each other, and I do not see where we are not. I spend ALOT of time on this project as I have been around and working on the server/tools for 4 years. I do not see where any of us are not supporting the project or the users.

David,

I don't have much else to say publicly on this subject at the time. However, my main point seems to be missed in each and every posting even when I put it in bold.

It is the issue of players being threatened by other players with "I have a dev in my pocket and will use it on you if you don't give me your nav / loot". That creates an unfun, undesirable, hostile play environment and directly reflects on the reputations of those working on the project, no matter whether the player actually has that capacity or not. That was the support I was talking about I salute everyone working on the project for volunteering their time and the great work they've done on the emulator and continue to do. However, this has been a complaint I have heard from other players in game several times and have seen reflected on the boards a few times.

That was the only issue which was brought up in the "improving communications suggestions" that I was addressing and making a suggestion myself on. I apologize if any other interpretations were taken.

[StarSeekerVDS]

I don't know, David. I'm waiting for some folks to get the balls to start naming names and posting details. I hope, if anyone does indeed grow such a pair, said names and details won't quietly vanish off the forums. If that nonsense starts happening I'll mirror it myself.

Myself, I have had no problems with any specific team member in years--save one, and he was removed during my absence. If the team had had any sense he would have been disposed of long before that; he single-handedly pissed off and drove away numerous people who could have been valuable to the team. However, he was entrenched and had a power base and so he persisted in his destructive attitudes for quite some time. I don't even know what eventually caused you to run him out but obviously it was the wrong thing otherwise it would have happened long before.

My problems are with an obviously disorganized and possibly unethical power structure. I understand that AF_Vet and Marco were upset about various things, however, I see no reason to believe their comments on their blogs are completely off-base; neither of them comes off as stupid, irrational, or malicious. (I say this even though I vehemently disagreed with Vet's moderating attitudes.) If they're telling even 25% of the truth something is wrong that requires severe intervention, and the only people who can intervene are the community.

If I were on the team at this moment and I was even once the target of any of the behaviors Marco or AF Vet commented on, or any such behaviors interfered with any work I was doing, I would go ballistic. I care about the game, not power trips, cliques, manipulations, politics, and as I'm sure you're able to tell, certainly not appearances or diplomacy or the possibility of getting banned.

We'll see how it goes.

[Davidr99 [Admin]]

Next time you have someone say that to you contact a gm about it. No one in the game has any "dev in there pocket".

[Lattimer]

My #1 suggestion is this: Rumor Control.

There is so much speculation spam in the in-game chat channels, it would be nice to have an official "This is the actual situation, stop talking out of your a$$" to respond to them with. I would be willing to volunteer for this responsibility, but it would require the ability to meet with the devs and GMs so we can actually establish what the real story is.

[Trapt]

What's the rumors?!?!?!? I wanna know!!

[Kyp [LDEV]]

My #1 suggestion is this: Rumor Control.

There is so much speculation spam in the in-game chat channels, it would be nice to have an official "This is the actual situation, stop talking out of your a$$" to respond to them with. I would be willing to volunteer for this responsibility, but it would require the ability to meet with the devs and GMs so we can actually establish what the real story is.

What does the speculation cover in particular? That would help in giving you an "official" answer.

[Lattimer]

What does the speculation cover in particular? That would help in giving you an "official" answer.

There are a number of topics that I have seen come up in chat over and over again, and every person seems to have a different version of their story to tell. I can give you examples but I have a feeling that doing so would turn this thread into the exact thing I'm trying to avoid (more rumor and baseless speculation).

I will put something together and send you a PM.

[Floss]

A board of directors that isn't independant from management is going to be much less effective.

Usually a board is comprised of outsiders, industry experts, etc, with maybe 1-2 people from the company sitting on it.

If your board structure is just the brass of the project, it's really not going to operate as a typical board should. Pulling some people with zero power (players) would actually create some sort of accountability. The day to day decisions should be made by management (devs), but major ones should be done by an independant BOD.

With the brass on the board, it's too easy for them to just collude and have backdoor deals to get what they want, which makes the board worthless (this is hypothetical). There is also a lot of pressure on people to agree with the brass, as they could likely be "removed" from a project with just a little cooperation from a few individuals. (again hypothetical)

Board minutes and financials (donations vs costs, surplus/deficit, etc) should also be public information if you are trying to show accountability. Again, the community doesn't need the details of everything, but major decisions (see board decisions) should be made public.

Saying that "we have accountability to our community because we have a board" doesn't hold water with the current board structure.

I'd be happy to donate time to perform an independant governance review and internal controls review if you want help. I get paid to do this stuff on a daily basis from small owner managed companies right up to multi-billion dollar companies. Even if the structure is seen to be acceptable, some third party assurance can probably kill a lot of the rumours going on. Also happy to sign an NDA and provide more detailed credentials privately.

Project management is also something I can help with. The team appears to be IT heavy, which is great for coding, but a mix of skill sets can help out.