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Raid Rotation Discussion Time For A Change?


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Hope you included me in the "want to see absolute change but think it best to leave it alone until thoughts/ideas/opinions have unexpectedly popped in to say hello" group Alurra!

 

'Cos that's definitely where I'm sitting right now.

 

Probably.

 

:wacko:

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After watching this thread for a while watching all the opinions fly... So here's mine. I will vote to leave the agreement as is, now let me tell you why...

 

The history:  This cycle of people wanting to bring change to the agreement and it resulting in another agreement, has been repeated several times over the past number of years. We do seem to end up right back into a rotation agreement in some form in the end. Changing the rotation has only resulted in chaos in the past, and that Chaos always leads back into another raid agreement. I would remind everyone thinking it needs changing, that without an agreement, every raid will fall to the first groups on scene and ready to start, and will not be as orderly as the raids conducted currently. This agreement was put in place to keep the peace by allowing an equal chance for all players to get the rare items from these raids. It may be difficult for many to believe (based on this discussion), but the raid rotation was not put in place to exclude anyone from raiding and getting the rare booty as a result. It was written to keep everyone equal and others from controlling/dominating these spawns. That is why the public was also included in the rotation a long while back, that is why all involved are given the full 7 days to conduct their own raids, and do so in peace.

 

The Evidence of bad behavior: Someone noted earlier that the community may be grown up enough now.... We should remember that there are a few proven greedy people who have stolen these raids from others in the past, and done so while this, AND the other agreements of the past were in effect. What makes everyone here think that this wouldn't turn into a huge messy fight later and with it, a huge drama fest with people like that around?? It all boils down to a few greedy people who can't play nice and share with others. For what exactly?? They want to get their grubby little hands their same pixel booty fifty times over, -for all their alts?? This also sounds a little too much like someone stirring the pot by putting bad ideas into the minds of the unwitting, as has happened in the past with much of the raid thievery that has taken place over same years. If this is the case, I would suggest that these people find something else to occupy their time than to promote their greed and hostility within the community.

 

On the discussion of allowing other "large enough" guilds a spot in the rotation: This has always been taken into consideration by our delegates (from all sides of the discussion) who have hammered out these agreements in the past. This has happened a few times with Phoenix and Epic Gamers (came to mind). Guilds wishing to join simply have to get their brass to make a request of the community, or get in touch with their favorite participating group to join. Then someone sets up a meeting, usually followed poll, and then we take a vote. Its that simple. Guilds in question have only to complete said raid successfully to join. Also consider the guilds in the agreement have also given up raids of their own for this to happen, and have done so voluntarily.This results in another group in the rotation, so everything gets popped out another week to make room for the newcomers. Easy enough.

 

I can't speak for you ladies and gentlemen, but when given a choice between a fair and level process vs. drama, we should opt for peace and less fighting + drama, over the mess something like this can potentially cause, as we've seen repeated time and again in the past. We should learn from these mistakes of the past, lest we might be doomed to repeat them.

 

Thanks for reading if you made it this far. :)

 

-Overt.

 

 

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()vertkill

  I was looking to "stir the pot", but no idea on bad intentions, With the player base getting low I was thinking the population might be able to work together.

There are a lot of people out there I have not raided with, gear is nice, but I believe I have at least one of all the 'major' items.

"Control" of the raids, well at least  GoBB, RD, Troller, DT, FB & GR are not an issue. If I was out to break up a lock on raids/loot it would be Modi's Child, Warder, ect ect   those seem to be ista killed,  someone has a hold full of BoL's  why?  cant say

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On the discussion of allowing other "large enough" guilds a spot in the rotation: This has always been taken into consideration by our delegates (from all sides of the discussion) who have hammered out these agreements in the past. This has happened a few times with Phoenix and Epic Gamers (came to mind). Guilds wishing to join simply have to get their brass to make a request of the community, or get in touch with their favorite participating group to join. Then someone sets up a meeting, usually followed poll, and then we take a vote. Its that simple. Guilds in question have only to complete said raid successfully to join. Also consider the guilds in the agreement have also given up raids of their own for this to happen, and have done so voluntarily.This results in another group in the rotation, so everything gets popped out another week to make room for the newcomers. Easy enough.

 

 

This is a pure load of crap.  Epic jumped through those hoops long ago and we were still denied a rotation spot.  It was not until the "public" started taking the raids that the public spot was put in place.

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This is a pure load of crap.  Epic jumped through those hoops long ago and we were still denied a rotation spot.  It was not until the "public" started taking the raids that the public spot was put in place.

I remember in the previous thread about the rotation i commended epic for keeping their cool and not doing anything rush. I don't seem to recall some1 'taking' the raids but if thats what you wanna remember sure. I actually urged towards another slot in the rotation and being accepted so yeah i call bull as well.

 

I think Overt nailed down a major point in his post. I too believe there are a few greedy people out there with 12-15-20 or more toons and they feel they are entitled to have raid loot for their 2nd TE, their 4th PW or their 3rd JD instead of giving a rats ass about the one that doesn't have one even for his 1st toon. And even when they have equipped all of them they will still hoard and try to make ridiculous exchanges for that single item that god forbid hasn't fell into their lap yet. Those are usually the most vocal, don't ask me why and I agree its a small community so thats why these behaviors stand out.  Neither politeness nor altruism can really be enforced or governed, you either have it or you don't.

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Actually Efi, I'd take your theme one step further, and pick up on the point Gunney made about the Modi's Child and Warder spawns:

 

I think it can actually go beyond simply wanting all one's toons equipped with the highest level gear. I think it can get towards what is called in the Military: "Area Denial".

 

The psychology would be: once you've got all of the exclusive kit for your toons, you want to maintain that exclusivity by preventing others from having it.

 

What point having all the super-elite Kit, and the most uber craft in the Galaxy... If everyone else is on a par with you?

 

Throw in the fact that the Credit Economy in the Game is more or less irrelevant beyond OL150, and "owning" a spawn or raid that provides in-demand items affords the owner a significant in-Game status.

 

Meaning: even if you have all that you need, you may be inclined to keep stock-piling high-demand items in order to maintain exclusivity and keep exchange rates high.

 

Which brings me onto the purpose of the Raids themselves:

 

Are the Raids meant to be high-level experiences of End-Game content...?

 

Or are they just meant to be vendors of End-Game equipment that are difficult to get at?

 

I think there's an important difference.

 

Working your way steadily up through the Game, you want to be aiming for the ability to take down bigger and bigger scores. Being able to successfully participate in End-Game Raids obviously represents the pinnacle of that ambition.

 

When you reach the point that you can do all of the Raids with your eyes shut... Without any risk of failure or (dare I say it...) "wasting" a trigger...

 

Isn't it the case at that point that you are using the Raid as a high-end vendor, rather than part of the Game experience?

 

Which is fine, I guess... But the issue for the Community then is:

 

Who should have Priority Access to the Raids: those using it as a high-end vendor; or those wishing to experience End-Game content?

 

If there is no contention... I.e. On a given day, there are shoppers, but no Raid-Noobs... Then the shoppers can max out their credit cards.

 

The contentiousness in the Community arises when those who have little or no experience with Raiding would like to do a Raid (to gain experience and enjoyment from doing the Raid); but must defer to those players/guilds who have plenty of experience doing the Raids, and can do them easily without "wasting" a trigger.

 

Or at best, must accompany players who are experienced in the Raids... Because "To Waste a Trigger" (on the major Raids) is considered somewhat of a felony..!

 

Because...

 

The focus on Raids in the Game is actually about focus on Raid-Loot, and not on the Raid Experience itself.

 

And I'm not so sure that's the best way to approach this Emulator, given the difficulties involved in adding new Raid content.

 

In terms of Game Immersion and cutting ourselves off from the outside World... Having to figure stuff out for ourselves through trial-and-error is what extends our involvement in the Game. There's a reason why there isn't a single, one-stop-shop walkthrough for Agrippa: 'cos figuring out (mostly) by yourself is part of the Game Experience.

 

Therefore... Having "The ability to successfully take down a Raid" as a qualification to be in the Raid Rotation seems a bit... Unfair.

 

And I think that's why the issue of the Raid Rotation keeps coming up.

 

If anything... The ability to successfully and easily take down a Raid should be a *DISQUALIFICATION* from being in the Raid Rotation!!

 

Denying people a regular and repeatable opportunity to practice their Raid techniques and organisation *UNTIL* they have been able to master a Raid, seems a bit back-to-front.

 

I honestly don't think that anyone really wants to see the Raid Rotation done away with. Even the 1 or 2 people who might mention that as a proposal, are just saying it because they feel something isn't right with the current Rotation, and can't think of any better alternatives.

 

Of course there needs to be some form of ordered rotation around access to the Raids.

 

I think what is really being debated is:

 

What qualifies a select group (or Guild) of players to hold a priority seat in the Rotation? And once they occupy that seat, do they hold it indefinitely?

 

I absolutely think that the Raid Rotation should remain.

 

But I do think that the "permanent" seat-holders need to be reviewed on a regular basis.

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Phorlaug
Not right off. You do get a key to the executive bathroom and your own coffee mug.

Hmmmm Syber movin out and a coffee cup becomes available........
Ya better wash that thing, last I herd it was 6 months ago he let his wife wash it, darn squids and their superstitions....




It was my hope things would go smoothly, but it seems finger pointing is creeping its way in more and more.
It would probably be best for a Mod to lock this thing up for awhile. Let everyone chew on the thoughts brought up and revisit the ideas at a later date.

My reply was for an invite only to my guild. :)
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Holyman i agree with enough of the points you make.

 

Yes certain people camp specific spawns like Modis child, Celestial Warder, Desash the Plague etc. If you been around those spots enough times i'm sure you'll notice a few toons that will regularly be there and most likely they have more than what they need of the loot by now. Some of them might even be kind enough to give away, share or sell. Nothing guarantees though it will be them who will get to kill the mob. Its perfectly simple so that anyone can go out there and compete. Sure you might not manage to be on top every time but you are guaranteed to get the mob once in a while so if you want it enough you will make it happen.

I've done my share of that for myself and others. I will go there and kill Desash, Modis Child or Warder enough times that will satisfy my needs and my friends needs and then you wont see me again for months until another friend will need some of that loot. Even those that camp regularly cant be behind the monitor 24/7. On the other hand i see people complain about it but not willing to do what it takes to get what they want in those spots. I'm not saying 'Area Denial' is a commendable practice but so is waiting for things to just happen to you without putting any effort, even in a game.

 

As for the raids, they are both a high end content experience and a loot vendor, i sincerely don't think anyone tries to exclude other people from them. The simplest way for me to show you that is tell you that whenever we pioneered a raid (like VGE did with RD base and the DT spawns) we never held anything back. We actually shared our observations and experiences with the community so we could all benefit. I believe that to be true for all groups/guilds involved with the very first raids that were done in the emulator and whether you like it or not it has always been Static, BI and VGE plus there were no agreements around at the time so it could get really competitive.

 

The funny thing with those who are vocal about change and 'wasted' spawns is the fact they are the same people who already raid. Because they would have promptly dispatched the raid meaning they have the knowhow and the gear to make short work of them. Those are probably the same people that will be vocal about the PS and TS being able to make their own ammo (nothing more than a minor inconvenience) and the devs will add the new skill. Will kill a mob 10 times and complain they didn't get the drop they wanted and the devs will adjust it, only to revert it back after a short while, Will complain because Lyle wasn't giving his missions for the new DT devices to the TS and the devs would oblige, even when it makes perfect sense since bogerils hate terrans etc

 

If you can think of a method that means raids are actually done by people with little to no experience and who really need the gear i will support it.

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This is a pure load of crap.  Epic jumped through those hoops long ago and we were still denied a rotation spot.  It was not until the "public" started taking the raids that the public spot was put in place.

No, the way it went down is that you guy decided to forgo the rotation, we never heard the reason (to my knowledge). But as Efi said, you remember it the way you want.

 

Gunney, I was not pointing to you in regards to stirring the pot. There are other individuals in game who have a tendency to stay silent while feeding inaccurate info to others, causing this sort of thing. Its happened before.

 

To the comment regarding the over camping of smaller mini-raids and their booty. Those items are over camped because there aren't any rules governing them. Some require a crazy amount of time camping, I would hope that all that do manage to attend these spawns would be willing to roll on said booty. But we all know that doesn't happen. My point is that if the regular rotation raids were to go in a "free for all" manor, they would become as big a pain in the arse to deal with as warder or the other smaller spawns. Those spawns would fall to the same types that camp the others, and the majority would once again lose to the greedy few. Do not forget that this agreement was what came of this sort of thing, You may have not been around for all the fun when the server was around a count over 500 daily. it was at this time when the current agreement system was made, and voted on by far more than the few that are following this thread. Its the gravity of what many of us went through to make this agreement happen, that is behind the votes against in this discussion. Likely the same people who also believe the current system is fair.

 

Holyman, your while some of your ideas are great in concept, the reality is that the larger guilds do have several differences that I have observed over time. They are better organized, they have a worked out strategy, and they it so well, they know what their friends in guild will do in a given situation. Your idea would punish those who are simply more skilled without though of how or why they would feel about being excluded. The current system keeps the peace by including anyone who wants to raid, can raid. Excluding anyone will always stir resentment at some level, which in turn will start an issue, and we will be talking about yet another agreement. Not the way I would suggest things should fly, but people will be people, and there is little that reasonable men and women can say or do about it. Thus you have the Warder, Modi's heart & Child, and the sort that would camp them continuously, depriving others and feeling good about it at the end of the day.

 

Many of us have wanted the rotation raids put on some sort of activation trigger device, but it also seems that many fear the dev's usual "soviet block" thinking, in that they will reduce the drops if this is the case. Punishment of shitty drops for the ability to trigger our own raids has come up in conversation before, along with the negative factor that seems to follow anything cool that we work hard to obtain(see Waking Nightmare). What I do suggest is doing so while working the trigger devices into the raid backstory a bit more, and like the other player made raid triggers, require an effort to put together.

 

One idea would be to play on the element, so I'll use GoBB as an example. The players at the raid in essence are trying to attract the attention of some very big name associated with ill-gotten booty. So what is the best way to attract the attention of pirates??? Build a treasure chest from a mess of ores and refined gems, plus a couple odd Bogeril odd items for the box to hold it all maybe?? A start, but not big enough. Perhaps a device build skill to make something to amplify the treasure chest idea, and maybe throw a false signature of a treasure galleon (Channeling my inner Star Trek geek here). Now that would make a tempting prize to bring them back from the dead. :)

 

Troller's might be based on something based on new technologies. So maybe do something similar for the false signatures, plus refine odd ores and items to make another drone or gadget that they will find irresistible due said advanced technologies.

 

Red Dragon base, maybe something to the effect of a device or something to make the players seem aquainted with the Chavez. Perhaps its like the enemy at the gates story theme. The players were sent by the Chavez to take the base, and part of the activate conversation would involve a letter from Hugo about Tzu and his mother. :)  Getting understandably pissed, they release the horde upon the raiders.

 

Anyway, its as far as imagination will allow, we simply have to write the pages to put something forward. Also never forget that the PRS is there as well, though needs a GM to better to activate it. Perhaps a conversation with a gate guardian who would exact the usual toll on anyone inside 5k of the gate, then they get gated in by someone talking to that NPC, getting a ticket or certificate to trigger 1 event inside. Each point of interest inside would them have to be access by the player with the ticket, to start the raid they desire.

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Thanks for the constructive responses Efi and Overtkill.

 

To emphasise as strongly as I can:

 

The Raid Rotation Agreement/System for the four big time-spawned Raids absolutely has to remain in place. As imperfect as it is, it is clearly superior to having no agreement/system in place.

 

A common vibe I've picked up from this thread, and from several other threads on the same topic, is that it is not the Raid Rotation Agreement that is being questioned (some people are questioning it, but only a small minority...): but the lock that Static, BI and V.G.E. have on the 3 out of 4 weekly slots.

 

From what I see flying around the Galaxy, it would appear that Epic Gamers and Sirius Cybernetics Corporation field the same amount of toons on any given day as "The Big 3". It seems a little incongruous that E.G. and S.C.C. aren't also in the Rotation.

 

But the explanation for that is that not only do Static, BI and V.G.E. have a permanent lock on 3 out of the 4 weekly slots in the Rotation: they also decide if, when and how the Rotation Agreement should be reviewed and/or modified.

 

If another Guild were to join the Raid Rotation Agreement with a 4th permanent slot, Static, BI and V.G.E. (let's call them "The Original 3" or "O3"  :) ) would lose out somewhat. The benefit they gain every four weeks would be diminished if a 4th and 5th Guild joined the Rotation.

 

So having the Original 3 determine the Rules of Entry/Qualification has to be something of a Conflict of Interest.

 

Here is what I would propose:

 

1) Double the Rotation period from 4 weeks to 8 weeks.

 

2) Static, BI and V.G.E. each keep their permanent seats, and are joined by Epic Gamers and S.C.C., who take the 4th and 5th seats in the (now 8-week) Rotation.

 

3) Let the Public have 2 weeks in the 8-weekly rotation (weeks 4 and 8, I guess), and that means No Change for "The Public" (they still get access 1 week out of every 4)

 

4) For the one remaining slot..:

 

Well... You'd now have a Five Member Raid Council, which is much more of a valid quorum. Allow any other Guilds to apply for that 8th slot (the week 7 slot, if the Public keep weeks 4 and 8) to the Raid Council. The Raid Council can decide which applicant Guild gets the slot, based on whatever factors they deem appropriate. The Council could (and should) set their own rules for that: e.g. a Guild can't apply if they had the Junior-Guild Slot in the previous 8-weekly Rotation; a Guild has to have a certain number of active players; limits on Multi-boxers &c.

 

The purpose of allowing a "Junior Guild" to have unmolested access to a Raid for a week is that they could have at least 2 or 3 attempts at it to try and improve their expertise and experience.

 

This would help these Guilds *GET* better organised, work out their strategies and know what their fellow Guildies will do in a given situation.

 

(Excluding them or restricting them from the Raid Rotation *BECAUSE* they don't have these qualities, goes a long way to ensuring they will never get them.)

 

It would also give the Raid Council a meaningful reason to meet regularly to conduct Raid Business... Rather than just having to come together every time the natives start getting restless about the imperfections in the Raid Rotation Agreement.

 

It would be a Change that would cost Static, B.I. and V.G.E. 1 weekly slot out of an 8 week rotation... But really, one way or another, the only way for "The Original Three" is down... That can't be avoided if any Change is to ever be made... And if no changes are to ever be made... There's a good chance that the O3 could lose more than just 1 week of exclusive access every 8 weeks..!

 

So there..: that would be the proposal I'd table for discussion!

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Removing Epic and SCC from the public group would severely drop the Raid able members of Public.  Public would then need to fill open slots via open invite on the server.  Mind you, I have NO PROBLEM with this (in fact its darn close to what I want to see happen), just  what I think would result  =)

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No, the way it went down is that you guy decided to forgo the rotation, we never heard the reason (to my knowledge). But as Efi said, you remember it the way you want.

 

Getoffme pulled out of the discussions for a reason.  That reason was that you guys were not letting us in and were stalling.  We knew taking raids down with ongoing discussions would not be looked at kindly.  Shortly thereafter we took some GOBB raids down that happened to belong to VGE and the discussion was reopened shortly afterward.

 

This is a minor detail though.  The real issue here is that you say you would let people in after they proved themselves but you are really not telling the truth.  Epic took the GOBB to prove that we could field a raid and Static demanded that we take down the RD base.  We took the rd base and you still refused to let us in.  You would have never let another group in the raid rotation until your hand was forced by the threat posed by the public. 

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Getoffme pulled out of the discussions for a reason.  That reason was that you guys were not letting us in and were stalling.  We knew taking raids down with ongoing discussions would not be looked at kindly.  Shortly thereafter we took some GOBB raids down that happened to belong to VGE and the discussion was reopened shortly afterward.

 

This is a minor detail though.  The real issue here is that you say you would let people in after they proved themselves but you are really not telling the truth.  Epic took the GOBB to prove that we could field a raid and Static demanded that we take down the RD base.  We took the rd base and you still refused to let us in.  You would have never let another group in the raid rotation until your hand was forced by the threat posed by the public. 

What the heck are you smoking???? LOL

The reason getoffme pulled out of the discussion had nothing to do with what you posted. WOW He pulled out after being confronted with the FACT that EG was supplementing its numbers with another guild in the rotation already. I was at that meeting buddy you should not spout crap cause I will call you on it. Gettoffme was told directly if he booted the NON-EG raiders from your guild he would be put in the rotation if EG could legitimately field the raids. He choose not to do so. His doing not Static. The puppet master (not gettoffme) used EG to get even with slights that went down years before and the current Static members had nothing to do with. We (Static, VGE and BI) did our best to come up with something that was fair for the whole server and I think we did a dam good job!!!

 

 

Nothing but GREED and stomping feet like children to get more loot. I was wondering when the threats would start and now they have. I was surprised who the threats came from first though. As others have stated many times theses raids can be done with 1 group and will be done just like that if a few get their way here. Then we will be back here listening to the same people cause they dont get to raid at all or that only a hand full of people are doing the raids Blah blah blah it goes on and on.

 

I keep seeing post claiming that the BIG 3 dont represent the majority of the server pop when we all know they do but somehow the BIG 3 should not get the raids as it is now. If you represent 25% you should get 25% NOT 75%.

 

The facts are,

1. Most on the server get to raid regularly.

2. The rotation HAS kept the peace.

3. Keep going on with this and sooner or later the DEV's will step in and as stated already we will not like it.

4. Far more have stated to leave things alone so why does this not end?

5. PRS DUH!!! Want more loot? Use it!!! The DEV's worked hard to help us out so use it.

Edited by Canman
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What the heck are you smoking???? LOL

The reason getoffme pulled out of the discussion had nothing to do with what you posted. WOW He pulled out after being confronted with the FACT that EG was supplementing its numbers with another guild in the rotation already. I was at that meeting buddy you should not spout crap cause I will call you on it. Gettoffme was told directly if he booted the NON-EG raiders from your guild he would be put in the rotation if EG could legitimately field the raids. He choose not to do so. His doing not Static. The puppet master (not gettoffme) used EG to get even with slights that went down years before and the current Static members had nothing to do with. We (Static, VGE and BI) did our best to come up with something that was fair for the whole server and I think we did a dam good job!!!

 

 

Nothing but GREED and stomping feet like children to get more loot. I was wondering when the threats would start and now they have. I was surprised who the threats came from first though. As others have stated many times theses raids can be done with 1 group and will be done just like that if a few get their way here. Then we will be back here listening to the same people cause they dont get to raid at all or that only a hand full of people are doing the raids Blah blah blah it goes on and on.

 

I keep seeing post claiming that the BIG 3 dont represent the majority of the server pop when we all know they do but somehow the BIG 3 should not get the raids as it is now. If you represent 25% you should get 25% NOT 75%.

 

The facts are,

1. Most on the server get to raid regularly.

2. The rotation HAS kept the peace.

3. Keep going on with this and sooner or later the DEV's will step in and as stated already we will not like it.

4. Far more have stated to leave things alone so why does this not end?

5. PRS DUH!!! Want more loot? Use it!!! The DEV's worked hard to help us out so use it.

Your so full of shit that I bet your eyes are now brown.  Epic put in for the rotation and passed your tests using only Epic people.  I listened to the recording when GOM recorded them.  We also stated during the recorded discussions that we wanted to include the public in the rotation during our week.  This was meant to open up the raids to the other public.  You guys took that to mean that Epic was incapable of raiding alone.  This is so far from the truth.  Epic has more people than Static and when we get organized for a raid, we don't have to multibox a raid. 

 

-Epic did your raid tests with no outside help and you ignored us

-Epic came back and stated a desire to include the other small raids with a similar response. 

 

Here are some of my observations:

 

It took you 45 minutes from the Precursor Alpha wave to killing the Troller last night when watched.  The public would have started and completed the raid in about 20 minutes. 

 

A few months ago I watched Static abandon a RD base raid when I took a group out there for some ammo testing.  Static abandoned the raid after they killed the mob that drops the CLP.  Once Static left, I decided to try and finish it.   The server crashed shortly afterward and I was unable to finish it.  During that time a single well organized combat group was killing the waves.  This went on for a bit and then the server crashed.  Had the server stayed online, we would have finished it.

 

Many times when I go to check on the triggers for the more difficult raids and they are up for days at a time.

 

Does Static even have the ability to take these raids down on their own without multiboxing?

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It's probably time for everyone getting hot under the collar to take a deep breath and relax.

 

After all 'tis the season of good will to all men (and women)

 

Increased hstilities in game or on the forums are not going to help anyone.

 

Seasons Greetings Everyone

 

Uni

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Here are my observations and deductions from Gunneys and GHMs posts.

 

  • There is hardly any public left to raid after you remove EG and SCC from the equation. In spite of that those two guilds still make up more than BI, Static and VGE combined according to your calculations.
  • Raids are better done from those that can 'speed run' them plus conveniently forgetting the current messed up state on debuffing equipment and how much it affects the raids. Classic example of mine is bigger than yours childish mentality. And finally
  • I am correct in my observation that those vocal about change and 'wasted' opportunities are those who already raid with the knowledge and equipment to do so, they just want a bigger pie.

GHB for your information i too have watched a Public raid getting abandoned and most everyone on Genril regularly just kills him with all the other mobs left untouched. This is exactly the vendor side of the raids Holyman reported and i don't think anyone has been innocent of that.

As for not being able to field raids without multiboxing from my admittedly limited experience with PRS and Publicly organized raids i have seen enough of multiboxing as well as direct statements from you that you will bring your 2 eg TEs with who you are so good and uber. Maybe i'm just so unlucky that i haven't been to many that all were single boxing or just maybe its that selective memory of yours in play again.

 

Please spare me from the 'Protectors of the weak' speeches unless you're running for office, then by all means continue and see how many you will fool.

 

Holyman i feel your proposition should be discussed further.

Edited by Efialtis
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You guys took that to mean that Epic was incapable of raiding alone.  This is so far from the truth.  Epic has more people than Static and when we get organized for a raid, we don't have to multibox a raid.

 

False statement. I've seen Epic muli-boxing simple FB raids yet still seeking more random people for help. Your healers are bad enough and your dspers aren't any better.

 

Conclusion: Yes, Epic is incapable of raiding alone, and you also multi-boxing for raids.

 

 

Lastly, GHB, I have nothing against you. Just stating facts.

Keep the rotation as it is. You won't want to see me or anyone else flying in with full fleets to kill mobs. It's not a threat, it's just an advice.

 

 

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Arguing over 'ghosts' of the past aren't going to solve anything in the now or the future.

 

Past differences should be just that, past. Let them go, move on. Who cares? Will it change anything current? No. Will it just make people more unreceptive to ANYTHING else said? Absolutely, you bet.

 

Let it go.....

 

Fly Safe

 

-Alurra

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Generally stay out of these forums designated for player discussions, but got asked to read and catch up on this thread, and so I have. That being said, you are all warned to keep it civil. There's no need for these threats between each other or threats to take mobs. The last time someone tried to dominate things I organized a dev party to show them what it was like to be unable to control their 'controlled' spawns. I promise you, we can outdamage all of you. ;)

 

No guild is super-dominant, the so-called "big three" used to have the most members, whether they still do or not is up for question, but if I need to I can certainly query the database for recent unique logons and determine if this is still the case.

 

The spawns are there for everyone, you have a system in play that has been working but as some have stated it's a gentlemen/women's agreement. The rules do not enforce this agreement and never will because I typically do not allow our rules to interfere with player/server politics in order to keep us objective. That being said, we did talk a bit about raids in our last meeting and will likely revisit the issue based on responses to this thread. So if you have something you'd like to see, now's a good time to post.

 

The next person to post something hostile towards another player (since it violates the Code of Conduct) will see every account they have tied to their IP address banned for a while. Discuss it civilly. This is your only warning.

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Holyman i feel your proposition should be discussed further.

 

Great.

 

Here is the proposition again (for clarity):

 

1) Expand the current Rotation Period from four to eight weeks.

 

2) Static, B.I. and V.G.E. all keep their current permanent spots, with one week each in the eight-week Rotation

 

3) Epic Gamers and Sirius Cybernetics Corporation get permanent spots in the eight-week Rotation

 

4) Raids are still "Open to the Public" one week out of every four (two weeks in the eight-week Rotation)

 

5) The remaining week in the eight-week Rotation is assigned/awarded to "junior" Guilds by the Raid Council (B.I., Static, V.G.E., E.G. and S.C.C.) based on criteria set by the Raid Council

 

6) The Raid Council would meet regularly to assess applications for the "spare" slot in the eight-week Rotation; and also to deal with any "Matters Arising" (e.g. breaches of the Raid Agreement).

 

So for each Raid, the Eight-Week Rotation would look like this:

 

Week 1 - Builders, Inc.

Week 2 - VonCorp Galactic Empire

Week 3 - Static

Week 4 - Public

Week 5 - Epic Gamers

Week 6 - Sirius Cybernetics Corporation

Week 7 - Awarded to "Junior" Guild by the Raid Council

Week 8 - Public / F.F.A.

 

OK then.

 

When I first mooted the above, I said I was "tabling it for discussion"; and Efi, you said you feel the "proposition should be discussed further".

 

So to everyone else: the above should *NOT* be taken as a full and final blueprint to be approved or disapproved (using whatever mechanism...); it is a potential framework for a new Raid Agreement that should be considered, discussed, and/or modified. It is a *DRAFT* template; not The Final Blueprint for a new Rotation Agreement.

 

For example:

 

It has already been said that the inclusion of Epic Gamers and S.C.C. into the Rotation might lessen the need to have a "Public" slot; since with the five biggest Guilds in the Rotation, that might/would cover a sufficient percentage of the Player-base, particularly given that Guilds with a Rotation Slot often ask "Public" players to fill up gaps in those Guild's ranks.

 

In which case, it might be more appropriate to just give "The Public" one week in the eight week Rotation, rather than two.

 

The spare week that this would free up could be made available to another "Junior" Guild by the Raid Council.... Or:

 

A distinction could be made between a "Public" week and a "Free For All" week.

 

Since a minority of players do occasionally suggest doing away with the Raid Rotation Agreement and making Raids "Free For All"... Why not address that by making one week out of every eight just that: a Free-for-All?

 

The distinction between a "Public" week and a "Free For All Week" would be that during the "Public" week, members of Guilds that have a permanent seat in the Rotation ("The Big Five"), plus whichever Guild may have been awarded the Week 7 slot, are not allowed to participate - or allowed to participate only in a supporting/advisory capacity, but not claim loot.

 

But in the "Free For All" week, anyone can have a go: "Public" players; Guilds in and not in the Rotation; hell, even multi-boxers..!

 

Maybe that is an idea that should be considered somewhere down the line, after the above Rotation Cycle (if it, or a variation of it is approved) has had time to bed in. Or maybe it should go in at inception..? To be discussed... But it *WOULD* be an accommodation of those players who think that a "Free For All" approach to Raids would be in the Community's best interests. And it could always be revoked (by the Raid Council) if it caused too much unpleasantness..!

 

Just a thought..!

 

Finally then, to try and frame (and contain!) what hopefully will be a constructive discussion:

 

We are (I believe) looking for an evolution of the existing Raid Rotation Agreement that will - above all else! - maintain a cordial and positive culture within the Player Community.

 

We are looking for a revised Raid Rotation Agreement that accommodates and harmonises multiple attitudes and opinions.

 

We would like a Raid Rotation Agreement that affords every player who wishes it, the opportunity to experience End-Game Raid Content within the Emulator, and to increase their chances of gaining possession of high-end items that drop only at End-Game Raids.

 

And any revised Raid Rotation Agreement needs to be as simple to operate and broadcast as possible, in order to encourage and facilitate adherence.

 

There we go then. Hopefully the above is a useful basis for constructive discussion about what the future could look like. And as Kyp and others have already pointed out: that's the only kind of discussion worth having; and the only sort of discussion that we should be having in this thread.

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I feel we're circling this topic over and over again. I will try to explain it as simple as i can, i will use an analogy.

 

Some claim that 3 guilds own the 75% of the raids so lets try to break this down for you in simple terms.

 

This game has a finite number of raids just as a playground has a finite number of toys.

 

All the kids in the neighborhood want to go to the playground and enjoy the toys like all E&B players want to do the raids.

 

I understand some raids are more desirable than others being by simple preference, loot usefulness or just loot quantity. Same in the playground, some kids like some toys better than others or in a given day they want to do just one thing or there is even a toy they don't like.

 

Like i have mentioned before, unfortunately in E&B the current game design cant support a high number of people concentrated in a single area and that is unlikely to change as long as the devs don't have any control over an important game element, the game client.

Similarly there are only so many of the spring riders or swing seats or of the sliders etc in the playground.

 

If the kids were left unchecked to just do whatever they please all the time imagine what would regularly happen in the playground.

Same in E&B and thats where the rotation agreement comes into play. It splits the kids into groups and says you kids can have the swings this time while the other group of kids gets the spring riders etc consequently all the kids get something to do instead of fighting over with each other.

 

Its my understanding some kids will be doing something they might don't prefer to do or even something they don't like one day (rotation slot) BUT they will get to do that the next time (another rotation slot).

But ALL kids get to play in the playground and regularly get to do the fun things they want.

 

Please explain to me in simple terms what your objection with that is and how the groups of kids who participate in this plan are owning the playground as you claim.

 

For the rare kid who only wants to be a bully and fight in the playground and will go push another kid from the swing so it can take its place guess what happens. Even if it doesn't get punished for what it has done it will end up alone in the swing with no one to boost him.

Edited by Efialtis
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very well said holyman and your suggestion should be honored and incorporated in the ground rules of the raid rotation....this is just my opinion and im not speaking for the public here....guys please keep this post productive and not turn into a fussing match....i feel we need to come to some resolve soon because this topic is going past 7 pages now ....thanks guys and try to keep this topic peaceful.....

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This game has a finite number of raids just as a playground has a finite number of toys.

 

All the kids in the neighborhood want to go to the playground and enjoy the toys like all E&B players want to do the raids.

 

I understand some raids are more desirable than others being by simple preference, loot usefulness or just loot quantity. Same in the playground, some kids like some toys better than others or in a given day they want to do just one thing or there is even a toy they don't like.

 

Like i have mentioned before, unfortunately in E&B the current game design cant support a high number of people concentrated in a single area and that is unlikely to change as long as the devs don't have any control over an important game element, the game client.

Similarly there are only so many of the spring riders or swing seats or of the sliders etc in the playground.

 

If the kids were left unchecked to just do whatever they please all the time imagine what would regularly happen in the playground.

Same in E&B and thats where the rotation agreement comes into play. It splits the kids into groups and says you kids can have the swings this time while the other group of kids gets the spring riders etc consequently all the kids get something to do instead of fighting over with each other.

 

Its my understanding some kids will be doing something they might don't prefer to do or even something they don't like one day (rotation slot) BUT they will get to do that the next time (another rotation slot).

But ALL kids get to play in the playground and regularly get to do the fun things they want.

 

Very well put Efi.

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