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Idea To Make The Explore Classes More Relevant In Raids And Reduce Lag


Goodhumorboy

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I have worked with the public for the last few months in refining our raid methods.  Chemical was the standard ammo type at the raids because it worked and even a lvl 8 Basilisk of a PW could get the job done.  The chem ammo however causes a lot of lag and frustration.  This motivated me to look for alternate methods.  I have performed experiments at the troller raid and will post the results later when I gather more data from the other raids.

 

The first experiment was to use ALL EMP ammo at the GOBB with an all Terran group and a PW heavy group for the adds at the end.  It was a huge success.  The lag was greatly reduced because EMP hits all at once and does not make as much lag as chem.

 

One of the biggest changes that we implemented recently was the use of impact ammo at the DT raids while using the Terran Scout as the target selector/debuffer.  I had less than satisfying results with the Progen Sentinel in regards to impact debuffing due to the lvl 5 gravity link bug, and the limited debuff that a Skirmish shield or Cassel's Wither can give.

 

Using Impact, energy and explosive seems to create a lot less lag than chem or plasma.

 

Here is a list of ideas that I think would make the explore classes more relevant.

 

1) Remove the 72 debuff cap of Impact, energy and Explosive debuffing.  This would allow the full debuff of the lvl 9 toys, popper, and gravity link to stack.

 

2) Make an Impact Debuffer device that is PS only and higher than 39.9.  One idea is to have a "Modified Cassel's Wither" that is refined from the mission reward and something else.  It would be a lvl 9 device with an Impact debuffer of -61.2, PL range buff, and a -15 explosive debuff similar to what the popper gives for the other ammo types.  This would make the PS valuable at the raids for everyone.
 

3) Make the JE Contemplation skill available in the game.

 

I think many of the lag problems could be fixed with using the other ammo types besides chem.  It would also require the explore classes to be used at the raids for the better debuffs.

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I understand the need for less lag in raids...which isnt as bad as it used to be thanks to the devs and the options they gave us to reduce it.

 

But, i fail to see how this impact debuffer is any different than asking for an Explosive debuffing ML in another thread.

 

As for the 1 & 3 sure go ahead Energy and Plasma and Explosive debuffs can't stack more than what the L9 debuffer plus the chilli popper can atm unless i'm missing something.

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       Well as a PS main that drives on a lot of raids.  Not sure I really want ANOTHER debuffer for impact as Basilisk, Salamander, Chili Popper already is a lot for a level 8 reactor to deal with, in addition to Decay/Atrophy/Burden/Menace etc.  Even my 5 slots I have too many toys to equip that my TAO, Diaymo, QSP, etc have to sit in cargo with all the debuffing.  And thank goodness the PS has a level 9 shield to take the beating from GL/Menace/Triple Debuffing at the start of a wave.

           I only use my 5 gravity link to get first aggro 9k+ out, that is the PW's job on the raids.  And also impact debuffing is the Terran's job.. The group cooperation for buffs/debuffs is always a part of the game.  I'm sure everybody would love to be able to debuff all the ammo types they can use, but not how set up to run as a group environment.  Also my repulsor fields on the TE/PW/PS is a nice little damage bonus for the tanks taking their beatings.

        Few would say a JE is a poor raiding toon with DEA turbo/reactor boost.  Sapping for power.  Group cloaking.  Rallying cry to remove menace (great for Fishbowls and GoBB.)  CC would be nice, but they do quite well without it.

 

       We all raid differently and have likes/dislikes for classes and equipment use.   But to claim the JE and PS aren't raiding toons is really a stretch.

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I understand the need for less lag in raids...which isnt as bad as it used to be thanks to the devs and the options they gave us to reduce it.

 

But, i fail to see how this impact debuffer is any different than asking for an Explosive debuffing ML in another thread.

 

As for the 1 & 3 sure go ahead Energy and Plasma and Explosive debuffs can't stack more than what the L9 debuffer plus the chilli popper can atm unless i'm missing something.

This has nothing to do with an Explosive debuffing ml.  This is all about making it possible for the explore classes to get debuffs in that are better than the current setup for the lag reduction that explosive, imapact and energy can offer.  Does it make sense that a single lvl 9 debuff can allow that damage type (chem) to out DPS another damage type that is doubled or tripple debuffed (impact, explosive, energy) by numerous classes?

 

No matter what you do, there is a 72 debuff limit on all debuffs.  The raid mobs on average are more resistant to impact, explosive and plasma than chemical.  Chemical just happens to lag things worst than the other damage types.  One good way to do this would be to move the chilli popper debuff out of the 72 cap calculation and allowing it to stack on the other debuffs past the 72 limit.

 

I never said that the PS or JE are not effective raid toons.  I think the PS is an equally good impact or explosive debuffer compared to the TS.  They have better shields and have some other nice toys.

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Why do you say there's a 72 debuff limit?  For a player, the Deflects range is 144 (-72 to +72), so I would think a MOB is the same way.

I have run numerous tests on many different mobs and the highest debuff that you can get is -72 from the mobs deflect.  If you stack a lvl 9 Chim and a popper, you only get a -72 debuff.  If you put a lvl 8 CLP debuff and a grav link, you can only get to -72 debuff.  A lvl 9 Salamander and grav link can only get you a -72 debuff.

 

 etc....

 

If the mob starts with a +20 deflect, you can only get the mob to an equivalent of a -52 debuff because of this -72 debuff cap.

 

Just for you info, the mobs are not limited to a 72 deflect because some are still resistant to the damage even with a full -72 debuff combo.

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This has nothing to do with an Explosive debuffing ml.  This is all about making it possible for the explore classes to get debuffs in that are better than the current setup for the lag reduction that explosive, imapact and energy can offer.  Does it make sense that a single lvl 9 debuff can allow that damage type (chem) to out DPS another damage type that is doubled or tripple debuffed (impact, explosive, energy) by numerous classes?

 

No matter what you do, there is a 72 debuff limit on all debuffs.  The raid mobs on average are more resistant to impact, explosive and plasma than chemical.  Chemical just happens to lag things worst than the other damage types.  One good way to do this would be to move the chilli popper debuff out of the 72 cap calculation and allowing it to stack on the other debuffs past the 72 limit.

 

I never said that the PS or JE are not effective raid toons.  I think the PS is an equally good impact or explosive debuffer compared to the TS.  They have better shields and have some other nice toys.

Why is there a need to make things easier than what they are? You need a better setup to debuff  the mobs more than the 72 cap you say there is for making raids raids go faster/easier?

There is no denying you can already use only explosive/impact/energy/emp in most raids if you wish so that the added damage over time calcs of plasma/chem wont cause lag, correct? Even progens have the option to use explosive (flechette line PLs) so if less lag is what you are after you can already do that, It will just take you longer to complete.

 

Mobs and players here don't constantly recharge their shields like in live, a thing that has made irrelevant a host of items that boost shield recharge rate and affect mostly the Progen Sentinel, but have also made possible for a single group to tackle most raids like quite a few have pointed out. Devs then tried to make things harder but adding millions of shields and hulls to mobs so that raids can take longer, then they added resistances for the same reason and to force specific damage types in those raids.

 

Game is easy enough as it is and changing the game as to accommodate the old live practice of constant shield recharge is a huge rebalancing task that i'm afraid the limited Dev resources make impossible. I still believe you're trying to change how the game/classes work so it can align more with your way of playing.

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I don't think it's about making the raids easier, I do agree with GHB, the explorer classes are not in high demand in raids.  Yes, I know there are a few exceptions, but I don't think I've ever heard a call "we need a JE/PS" to complete our group, maybe a "we need someone...anyone to complete our group...oh you have a JE, ok, we'll take it so that we can finally start."

 

And Ice, I hate to admit this cause I like my JE a lot, but I would say a JE is a poor raiding toon (other than looting).  When I'm putting a group together, I'd take a JD, or JS, over a JE 100% of the time.  Group cloak is kinda useless because it shuts off as soon as a toon fires or activates a skill, sapping only works on shields.  The DEA and Rallying Cry are pretty tough to get, they're nice to have, but I don't think they are must have's for a raid(like say a healer or summoner).  If a player has a JE with a DEA and Rallying Cry, they most likely have a number of other raid capable toons that they can bring instead.

 

For those of us in this thread, I suspect we can bring most any toon to fill a group, the folks that have a tough time with this are the newer players with a explorer main in the 140's or that just hit 150 and want to start raiding.  I think it's pretty tough for them to get into a raid with their toon.

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The JE (along with the other two explorer classes) aren't poor raiding toons. They're the  primary "debuffers" (in conjunction to the buffs they bring) for goodness sakes. Looks like the jumpstart skill also wasn't factored in/forgotten about...

 

I can just see it now...[Incapped Warrior toon that was chosen over an Explorer toon]..."Oh ****, I forgot that I was still registered at a station [insert number] of sectors away"...

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I don't know about you guys, but I NEVER die in raids ;)  jk

Typically, jumpstarter toon is in the looter group or alone sitting on the sidelines (usually a dualboxed toon of someone in one of the fighting groups).  I wouldn't waste a dps spot in one of the combat groups for a JS'r that can just zoom in, js and zoom out.

 

I think GHB's point in starting this thread was to say that yes, explorers are supposed to be the debuffers, but with their current capability, it's difficult to justify giving up a dps or healer for what the explorer brings to the raid, and I tend to agree with that.  Absolutely they can be worked into a group, but they're not at the top of anyone's list saying, I need one for my group.

 

P.S. To those of you leveling up toons that want to do a lot of raiding; TT, TE, JD, PW are the toons most desired in raids.  I put TT first because from my  experience, healers seem to be the hardest to find when putting together a group and you can have a very capable TT at Lv140 if you use your skill points wisely.

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Not sure how you guys play the game, but I always play with explorer(s) in group(s), be it solo or raid.

 

And yes, I have all classes 150+ in the game, don't let my signature deceive you. :)

 

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Edited by AlanEnB
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Game is easy enough as it is and changing the game as to accommodate the old live practice of constant shield recharge is a huge rebalancing task that i'm afraid the limited Dev resources make impossible. I still believe you're trying to change how the game/classes work so it can align more with your way of playing.

 

You must have never raided with me.  I play ALL toons depending on what is needed.  I have developed niches in the public raids for being a support toon that enables the main group to leverage their DPS higher.  I also dont think shield spamming is a good idea.  I think that a raid should go down with minimal healing if the people play their toons correctly.

 

i.e. I play the TS a lot in DT to support the Progen and Terrans in using impact/explosive.  I also thought up the SOP for the public GOBB raids of having 1 strong Terran group and a Progen group for the adds at the end.

 

I also use many different ammo types and support it with a good debuffs.  I know of only a few people that have experimented and been willing to try new methods of doing things.  I am actually making a spread sheet of what each damage type can do with the proper debuffs.

 

I am not against chem ammo.  I am just tired of the lag that it causes at the raids.  I also think that there is an imbalance in the game play in regards to raids because there is no real advantage in bringing an explore class to a raid except for jumpstarting.  Allowing the explore classes to push the debuffs past the 72 cap would benefit the warriors ( smarter fighting), it benefits the people that like flying explore toons, and it benefits all because it would allow us to get away from the chem that currently dominates the raids and reduce the lag.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't think it's the "chem" that is the problem, I think it's the dmg checks. Plasma ticks 3 times, that has to figure into a total dmg for that time, it works better vs shield than hull. Plasma does it's DoT and once it's into hull it lowers dps and never has to check again towards the mob if there isn;t shield there.

 

Chem however is a DoT that has to keep checking for presence of shield/hull. Chem also ticks like plasma as a DoT but it ticks 2 times per shot, once into hull it's dps increases, but it has to keep checking for a shield to turn off that dps to a shield lvl of DoT.

 

This is compounded by the RoF of what is being fired, PLs shoot tons of killing love, every shot has to tick 2 times rather than just once like explosive or impact or emp. Then there is that shield vs hull check for-every-single-round-fired. Since a progens fav dmg types are impact or chem, and their better debuffers are chem..what are they going to use? consider the fact that nothing cuts through a hull better than chem..what are they going to use? :)

 

The raid  don't have the calculation problems of "chem beams" from jenny so that in itself is eliminating a whole lvl of lag potential. The terran ML have a far slower RoF than the PL so that layer even if they toss chem is a far slower calculation that has to be done, so that lag is minimized. It's the high RoF of progen/chem and number of dmg ticks and the constant check for shield/hull or not shield/hull that are having to be done for each round of ammo that is giving you the lag problem.

 

How aboout attack that problem than propose a while new layer of changes to debuffers etc? Maybe the (hull of not?) check could be taken out of the calculations in a raid situation. Have a 1 time check and once its met all rounds after that need not do so. Maybe a total dmg per round can be not ticked for in a raid situation instead of a DoT. Yes, that sort of short curcuits how chem works as well as plasma, but maybe that dynamic can be suspended for raids only, that would cut the dmg checks and calculations could be factored down in a raid situation.

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