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Let's make sure we all understand what a killsteal is

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A killsteal is taking a mob from a group/person, that has been camping a spawn point for a long time, by getting a single shot off when you just fly in/by.

If two people are camping the same spot....even for 5 minutes...they both have the same right to the mob.

Now here is the fun thing with E&B. Players cannot Killsteals. You can in most MMO's but not in E&B.

Whoever does 51% damage (or the highest percentage if 3 or more players are all attacking) gets the credit for the kill....period. If you fail to get credit it is your own fault. Either you do not have good enough weapons, are not the right class, are not using the right tactics, or did not bring a strong enough group/player (gun) with you. In any of these situations the responsibility for the loss of the kill is on the person that did not understand the E&B design team/Westwood's design for getting credit for a kill.

Do Not Try to Accuse other players of KSing, threatening them, or their guilds with your childish inability to understand the game functionality.

Yes, this goes out to a specific person....and yes I do not apologize for bringing a bigger gun. Use your resources (guildmates, alts, better gear, guild relationships, grouping, tactics, etc) so that in the future you will get the kill. Just because you have been "camping" a spot does not mean a mob belongs to you.

I will finish by saying this: The game is pre-Alpha....the mobs have very basic AI and many skills that do not work. Learn the game, test it, generate bug reports, and have fun. Please do not devalue the work that this wonderful Dev team has spent with childish and threatening behavior.

evercomplaint.jpg

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Uh, if someone starts fighting a mob and another jumps in and starts trying to get that 51%, sure that's KS. If someone gets the first hit, I break off, it's theirs, even if I have bigger guns and can take it out faster. On my missile boat, this happens now and then, because I don't target on visual but from screen edges, so sometimes I miss seeing someones starting attack but then see the health bar on the target going down after I already let loose 6+ missiles. Just because I can do damage faster, doesn't make the target mine.

I've had this happen to me during ST3, someone KS'ing. He flew in and started attacking my target that I had already engaged. The target kept firing at me while this guy was racking up safe damage. He was doing more damage, but I was taking more since I had to get more aggressive to outdo him. Imo that's just wrong. Just because the mechanics rewards the 51% doesn't eliminate KS'ing, just gotta use your brain on the issue, and show consideration for fellow players.

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Killstealing is a myth in this game, but there is bad etiquette. I won't go to a nav someone is clearly sitting on and shoot at their mobs. I also won't shoot at something someone else is working on just to be a jerk. Chasing someone around and shooting everything they've fired at consitutes harrassment.

In the event of rare/boss/end game mobs, whoever brings the biggest guns to the party gets the kill. I don't believe that someone camping something like RD base gives them exclusive rights to the kill, or else people would just park a character on the base, controller, etc, and claim exclusive rights to all 3 of the interesting in-game mobs in the current game, calling anyone else who shoots at it a "Kill Stealer". The Warder was probably the ultimate example of this back in Live where it had about a 0.2 second life span on Andramada.

The game mechanics say that >50% of the damage gets the kill. That's not stealing if you do >50%. If you don't get the kill, yes that can be frustrating, but that's the way the game works.

Pulling up to something like a 4 mob chavez spawn, where someone is already parked, and trying to outgun them on everything is not against the rules, but clearly a jerk move.

I've lost mobs that I've been camping to what could be called kill stealing, but the person clearly had more DPS than me, so that's the end of the story. No point in sending some rage "I'm going to smite your whole guild" message to someone.

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A killsteal is taking a mob from a group/person, that has been camping a spawn point for a long time, by getting a single shot off when you just fly in/by.

that only one definition. and yes, there is KS in EnB.

general rule is that whoever does damage first deserves the kill. like one player is engaged with mob/boss and next group comes along and out shoots the first.

now if two people/groups are in one spawn and they kind of see spawn and engage in the same time so it's difficult to know which one 'deserves' it, only then 'bigger gun wins' and there was no KS. and only then.

In any of these situations the responsibility for the loss of the kill is on the person that did understand the E&B design team/Westwood's design for getting credit for a kill.
... and thats why i fly 6 PW's fully turbo'd when camping boss.

ps!. waznt me ;-)

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Seriously, if you run into a camp and want a piece of an epic mob, party. ASk them to send an invite (don't just spam invite them), and then everyone is happy.

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Seriously, if you run into a camp and want a piece of an epic mob, party. ASk them to send an invite (don't just spam invite them), and then everyone is happy.

The conflict arises when the two groups are after the same item, let's say a skull shield. Group A may not wish to share the kill with Group B due to the horrid drop rate on the item. Grouping is great if the people are after different objectives. I've done this repeatedly (i.e. I'm camping for a ML, and a PW is after a PL), and it's fantastic when it works that way, but if someone doesn't want to share and would rather compete, there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make either group a bunch of "KSers" if they chose to have a shoot out instead of an agreement. A little competition can make the game interesting, and drive the need to improve your skills/gear.

Bartering if you know you are going to get outgunned can also be useful. Trade the boss spawn time if you have it in exchange for the privelege (not a right) of getting the next kill while the clearly superior players holds back, with the agreement of moving on afterwards.

Getting "KSed" as it is usually described is incentive for me to do better in the future and not have it happen again, not a window to chew someone out for having better equipment than me.

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interesting. in live i had a second set of guns for the sole purpose of putting people like the OP in their place, just to do more damage than them so they could come cry on the forums like the OP is doing now. You should actually feel lucky Ever isn't playing a JD and playing a TT instead, otherwise it would be you complaining that you got KS'ed.

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It really comes down to a matter of semantics as to what exactly constitutes a "KS". In its purest definition it doesn't exist in EnB as the "Kill" is awarded to the larger damage dealer, unlike some other games where it's awarded to the player that dealt the death blow.

Anywhoo - as mentioned by others, it's really a matter of etiquette. I try very hard not to shoot at anything I know to have already been shot at by somebody else. Sometimes mistakes happen, especially in a crowded target-rich area, in which case an 'Ooops, sorry' in either Local or Private usually should suffice. As to heavily camped areas with limited or timed spawn mobs - if the parties involved can't work it out in advance (and it's worth their while to try) then the biggest/fastest guns win. Game mechanics working as designed.

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ST3 and ST4 are notorious for insanely long respawn times during certain missions, some of the bad ones you'll need to wait 10-20 minutes or even ask a GM for a respawn.

Imagine if you had been waiting for 10 minutes for a respawn and a random guy warps in shoots the mob, loots and then shouts:

"I PICKED THE RIGHT CLASS ON THE LOG IN SCREEN BRO".

Before warping away. Im sure you can, because from the sounds of it that's exactly what you did.

are not the right class

Now if this game was live and was quite crowded (like Sunset) then you're arguments would be valid. But this game isn't live...

For the socially inept lets compare you're actions too ordering a drink in a bar.

The bar is quiet and isn't crowded at all, only a few people are ordering drinks with the bartender working his way through the small crowd. A respectable person would approach the bar and quietly wait their turn. This is comparable to the low amounts of players playing on the server at the moment.

You on the other hand have gone right up to the bar and very loudly and aggressively told everyone that you're next to order. This kind of behavior would be tolerated in a busy bar but in a quiet bar it makes you look like a completely asshole. This is comparable to the high amounts of players on the server before Sunset.

TLDR: Don't Killsteal.

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The conflict arises when the two groups are after the same item, let's say a skull shield.

KS’ing isn’t usually done by groups, but by individuals against other individuals. When you have a group of players, there is often/a-chance-of one that says “that’s not right” so it happens less often. When you get to groups competing for rare spawns, that is not the norm and doesn’t qualify all instances of KS’ing as being ok which are usually 1 vs. 1 (that‘s why I like group PvP). Take this case for instance, it wasn’t a group, just two people, one saying it was his because he could DPS faster. IMO, the chat log/img is childish, it’s just an attempt to grief a player and/or cause petty squabbles in the forum. This thread should be locked.

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I think kill stealing is when you see someone attacking a mob, and you deliberately attack the same mob, with the intent of outdamaging them, and taking the kill from them. I do think that sometimes, people honestly didn't know a mob was under attack (or being stalked by another) when they pressed their fire button, so I think it would have to be some continuous behaviour to be sure.

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Thanks for such an enlightening post crichton2.

You have given ample demonstration that you are a illiterate inconsiderate tool.

Even your own guildmates are not agreeing with you on this issue.

Your exactly the sort of player people don't like seeing in a game of this nature.

Enjoy your keyboard to chair delusions of grandeur.

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Just be nice to one-another and we'll get along.

If someone's camped in an area, that usually means they're waiting for something to happen. In this case they want to kill a mob for loot. If you want the kill too but they were there first: back off, even if your weapons are much more powerful than the other player and can kill it 10x faster.

Common courtesy. It exists in reality, and should in virtual reality. The internet is an extension of one's life, so be nice.

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I do find the resulting posts amusing. If Ever had a JD he should have been on it. I never complain if someone outguns me. They deserve the kills since they are following E&B game mechanics. Players that bring their own personal "code of conduct" or "belief system" to the game and try to use that as an excuse, for anything they do in game, are doing just that.....using an excuse. The game mechanic is very simple. Don't hide behind excuses....I never did with my 5x150 toons during live and I will not now.

I posted this as I am tired of people bitching about KSing in [New Player], [Market], or in this case a tell and tells to my guild's officers. This is the first such accusation I have received while playing this game and I was offended by the threats. This guy is trying to leverage his guild against others and threaten to inflict consequences for a game design action. This is intolerable and in my mind is close to violating the TOS. In no way was I a dick or jerk.....read the text in the screen shot. I killed a mob that we were both camping....a mob I have been camping, on and off, for three days. Is it valid to say it was "my kill because I have been camping that spot or three days?" Certainly not.

I do like the bar analogy. Let me tell you how I get drinks in a crowded bar. I hold up a $100 dollar bill so the bartender can see it. I get my beer, and usually anything else I want for the rest of the night, quite quickly...and the bartender gets $100. I bring the right 'gun' to the 'fight' and I 'win.' Not my fault if others do not understand the "game" as it is designed.

Have fun folks = ]

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I do find the resulting posts amusing. If Ever had a JD he should have been on it. I never complain if someone outguns me. They deserve the kills since they are following E&B game mechanics. Players that bring their own personal "code of conduct" or "belief system" to the game and try to use that as an excuse, for anything they do in game, are doing just that.....using an excuse. The game mechanic is very simple. Don't hide behind excuses....I never did with my 5x150 toons during live and I will not now.

I posted this as I am tired of people bitching about KSing in [New Player], [Market], or in this case a tell and tells to my guild's officers. This is the first such accusation I have received while playing this game and I was offended by the threats. This guy is trying to leverage his guild against others and threaten to inflict consequences for a game design action. This is intolerable and in my mind is close to violating the TOS. In no way was I a dick or jerk.....read the text in the screen shot. I killed a mob that we were both camping....a mob I have been camping, on and off, for three days. Is it valid to say it was "my kill because I have been camping that spot or three days?" Certainly not.

I do like the bar analogy. Let me tell you how I get drinks in a crowded bar. I hold up a $100 dollar bill so the bartender can see it. I get my beer, and usually anything else I want for the rest of the night, quite quickly...and the bartender gets $100. I bring the right 'gun' to the 'fight' and I 'win.' Not my fault if others do not understand the "game" as it is designed.

Have fun folks = ]

So yelling in chat that You picked the right class at the log in screen gives you the right to warp into any nav and kill something when you can clearly see someone there fighting. Well that's really good to know, especially since you think anyone that picked a miner or trader picked the wrong class. Hope your guild has deep pockets and can get you everything you need in game, cause as far as I am concerned i know I am one builder that won't make a single thing for you with your attitude. Elitist attitudes like yours are one of the things i had hoped would not pop up again in the emu, oh well we can't have everything.

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Eh...

To be honest, kill stealing here is deliberately denying player(s) the right to loot what they deserve from a mob they have a capacity to kill. There is no ownership over a mob, but once damage has been dealt, the mob is technically "owned" by the damage dealer, unless that mob is clearly overpowering the dealer, or no damage at all has been done to the mob.

In saying that you are able to outgun them... Via "finishing" off a monster they worked on killing, you have the rights to the loot, although the game mechanics allow it, you're branding yourself as a egotistical noob. Its not just "a game", we're playing a MMORPG, there's the social mechanic involved with it. How would you feel if there was someone deliberately targeting and finishing every single mob you're attacking?

But man, the flame wars that crop up are pretty much due to either side going nuts about this sort of topic, and the community here presents a small faction of the population in game.

The only sort of time I'll see KSing become extremely blurred is when there's a event based boss monster that crops up.

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"...and I will make your whole guild pay..." :lol::D

Anyway...

Killstealing is a myth in this game, but there is bad etiquette.

Sums it up spot on.

//Leandra

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To be fair in the days of Andramada (as floss put it), there were quite a few groups (including some from Static itself, though not to try and call them out, there were plenty of others) that would show up and just outgun people it would seem to just be an ass. I experienced it plenty because I was the only big gun in a small guild, I couldn't compete with more than two people then.

In terms of Kill-Stealing, we're watching, and we're going to adjust it to make it nigh impossible. There are extremes to be sure, e.g. Final Fantasy online, the first person to attack a mob gets "claim" to the mob, and you cannot attack it unless they forfeit loot altogether by calling for help, and then there are the games that award it to the person with the killing blow. We'll find a happy medium that everyone can get along with eventually, even if that just ends up being a full return to the live system.

I always felt E&B was rather fair in that whoever did 51% of the damage got it, but our GM staff is not likely to intervene unless it's a repetitive and harassing behavior. Keeping that in mind will help, it's really the HGMs decision on what is considered "fair play" in regards to kills and KSing as they are the ones who attempt to keep the community from being at each others throats. We certainly do not allow it, and if you do it excessively you'll earn a reputation, and it'll get you watched. Take from that what you will. :D

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I don't know Ever, or really know Bylar that much. I have had run-ins with Bylar before though, and he has no hesitation acting like an ass to get what he wants. Without knowing the full story here though its hard to say what is fair. IMO timed bosses are open game and the most dmg wins, if Ever was hunting regular mobs at a nav and Bylar forced him out by killing everything/KS'ing him then that is wrong.

Reguardless if EA/WW designed the game with 51%+ gets the loot or not, the community does have the final say in what is acceptable and what isn't. Its been that way in every MMO and isn't likely to change anytime soon.

And as for the whole "my guild will make you pay!!!111oneone" crap, if the guild is who I think it is Bylar should just join them, be a perfect fit with their mentality.

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LOTRO also does the first-hit-credit thing (group or individual), with the additional function that if anyone else hits the mob (group or not) or gives heals the credited player(s) get half experience. Hitting a claimed mob has no benefit besides helping the player. Many players prefer not to lose XP and get mad about it; I believe that if someone repeatedly hits your mobs there you can report it as griefing.

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Ill post this troll and raise you one troll.

I can think of other mmo's that suits this playstyle. but this from an alpha test? Two points here, and both don't belong.

a) Guild leverage with extra epeen aka Internet bullying? You have no real friends on the internet period. I'll bring my 10 pixel thug and pound the face off your 5 pixel thug.

b ) Etiquette, its a forgotten art alot of younger gen people. and especially 'The big and tough guys.' (btw its no secret they don't get laid either). Bring bigger guns? so much for working together, but then 'The big and tough guys work alone'

Okay i raised 2 trolls. But thanks for the entertaining thread :D

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To be fair in the days of Andramada (as floss put it), there were quite a few groups (including some from Static itself, though not to try and call them out, there were plenty of others) that would show up and just outgun people it would seem to just be an ass. I experienced it plenty because I was the only big gun in a small guild, I couldn't compete with more than two people then.

To say any guild doesn't have skeletons in the closet would be a stretch :D Understanding that 2002-2003 was a long time ago and how much people might have changed since then is also important.

I think the best way to promote less direct competition is just to make more content. Most MMO's resort to instancing which is detracting from the MM part of MMO. Final Fantasy's system of "I shot it first so it's mine" just changes the dynamic to who has the fastest claim skill (beam users or instant activation skills) and then created macros to detect pixels and trigger a skill. It really didn't stop anything and still lead to hostility.

Triggered boss mobs are also a great tool to cut down on camping/killstealing, assuming we don't recreate the MPP which also just got camped. If a guild leader got 1 token per week or something to trigger a mob, that could be an interesting dynamic to help everyone play nice. FF did have a successful system where random items would drop, trade a stack for a token, and then go fight a boss privately. It gives even the smallest groups the opportunity to do end game stuff without having to camp a mob in shifts 24/7.

I don't have a huge issue with competition, but I can understand the frustration of small guilds getting blocked out of the end game stuff, something we definitely were doing in the previous incarnation of this game.

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i have played a lotta games and what you call kill stealing some people call playing the game... you may not agree with it but thats why the world is such a screwed up place.... as long as its not harrasment (a party following you around to intentionally harass and steal your kills) its pretty much legal... as for enb... in the end regardless of whatever anyone thinks on this forum (and the opinions could not be more varied here)...

the devs are gonna have to make a rule and believe me that rule wont eliminate kill stealing, cuz no one has ever made a rule on that... its unenforceable... the only way out is to go fully instanced like coh... yeah there were street kills but for the most part people kinda ran there missions...

some people consider kill stealing a form of pvp in a pve environment... who is anyone to tell them they are wrong... the best you can have is an opinion... yeah would I like to have a pocket mob on a leash that I can login to, quietly beatup and logoff... sure... but good luck with that... maybe single player Return to Castle Wolfenstein is more your speed :lol:

/PS oh and to the OP... u certainly deserved the kill... anyone that can play the game and actually kill sumtin with there chat window open the full length of the screen deserves all they can get... you can ks me anytime :D

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I think we need to bring Team America into this discussion as what KS-ing exactly is can be seen from different perspectives.

Please read what is meant by the D/P/A method:

http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=15506765475159901469

- The D category is what most players are, they think that KS-ing is shooting a mob that has already been shot at by another player. They try to play fair but will not back down if they are killstealed because they have some sense of moral justice.

- The P category is what most whiners, and im afraid to have to call them Jenquai, are. Jenquai are ofcourse the weakest class and as a result P's are naturally attracted to them. These players have the weakest gear because they are pacifists, never stand up to a KS-er, and are generally passive players. Their only defence is to shout and whine KS on forums or through PM's and hope that "social rules" will protect them.

- Quite clearly the OP falls under the A category. He sees the 51% rule as fitting his playstyle best and should therefore be treated on an individual basis like that. In other words you need to bring bigger guns because he doesent listen to threats and hell...he even gets off on them. Because these players don't care about the majority of people's opinion of them they are very much free to do what they want. This leads A's to generally have the best gear because they are also the most competition orientated minds.

Ofcourse these categories are not strict, you can be a little bit of A or P as well as D, but never a both A and P.

KS is what you make of it, which will reflect what you are

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