Let's make sure we all understand what a killsteal is

[bondct]

I didnt read this post... but damn its long! I bet this has to be close to the longest thread on the forum... gratz

/edit ah well it loses a little bit of length without the multiple sigs at the end... but still... gratz

Okay, I can accept your point that PvP would be a solution, if not the definitive solution to KS'ing. I'm just going to say that I don't think that such a solution is necessary, given the (existing) mechanics of the game (biggest DPS = win).

As I've mentioned before, simply having the better/best DPS ... should not be license to be a total jerk. Of course, none of this will do much of anything about basic human nature (which is selfish at its core, unvarnished level)... but as Zackman suggested, simply communicating (or attempting to) with your opposition to either group or share or in the case of boss spawns, rotate the spawns...

...well, civility can work wonders. I pointed out the way the high-level Japanese raiding guilds (linkshells) in FFXI would rotate spawns of certain über MObs... it's not something that is beyond impossible, with a little talk and some "give and take", both on an individual and on a guild-to-guild basis.

I'll say this for the EnB community: By and large, the player base that is here - and especially those that were around during Live - have a much better sense of game community than a lot of other MMOs, as regarding helping one another out, and generally being civil.

There'll always be those jerks who want to show off how big their guns are (immaturity + basic human nature) and eventually, the community will deal with them. If the responses on this thread are any indication, the OP has not won too many new friends through his actions.

Touching on the solo-ist item, I'll say that about 85% of my time in EnB (both here and in live) was spent solo-ing. I really do like the *ability* to do that - and for all but those über bosses and endgame content... the ability to do stuff solo *while* chatting with friends... makes me happy.

FFXI was a forced grouping game... you simply *had* to have certain ideal party configurations in order to have a chance of gaining any decent xp. And for some jobs (like Dark Knight /DRK) that meant waiting six hours for a chance at an invite, while Bards (BRD) and White Mages (WHM) could simply fart in Lower Jeuno, and they'd get four or five invites. And yes, my time is valuable, so I leveled in WHM and BRD.

To the end that creating PvP in the Emulator as an end to KS'ing,I say.... Don't.

Forcing players to group for protection from other players ala Ultima Online - that would ruin what EnB was about for me, and I'm sure that I am not alone in this opinion. That, and I simply don't have that sort of time on my hands: for the most part, I log in to kill some Chavez, do some trade runs, build some stuff, mine some rocks under the nose of some orefield guardian, and chat with guildies. Yup, my best power-gaming days are behind me.

So, I guess I am one of those "whiny solo-ists" after all, heheh.

My opinion, yes. And, you are 120% correct that if wanted, we could build PvP into the Emulator code where it wasn't in Live. As far as Live went, it was not by design, a PvP game.

And you are right about re-creating the server code from scratch: Emulator *could* easily become a PvP game, if that is what the community wanted, and the Devs saw fit to code it.

My point was that in Live, PvP was an afterthought. The Westwood (later EA) dev team saw fit to leave true PvP out of the game. I think (yes, an opinion) this was an overall good thing.

I further think that implementing open PvP would seriously detract from the game that many of us (especially those of us who really like playing miner and builder classes).

If we must have PvP, let's do it by way of instancing, or even just re-purposing the arena or creating a separate series of zones where the trigger-happy can smite each other until the Dzurai come home.

But for the love of Terran credits... please don't make me have to think about getting ganked as I gate through New Inverness on my way to drop of nanobots at Somerled.

I don't think I am alone in this opinion:

"If it aint broke, don't fix it". The current "best" solution to KS-ing lies with whoever brings the biggest guns to the party.

But an even better solution, is the people and the server culture that socially discourages ass-hattery at boss camps, or hunting grounds in general.

Introducing open PvP would be a showstopper for me; it would no longer be EnB, but EnB with a pile of mentally 10-year old kids camping the gates and resource fields looking to kill off some non-warrior class who was there simply to enjoy a nice night of PvE or mining, etc.

And though I'm sure some such "Knights of Vengeance" vigilante group would arise to shut down the PK'ers... I reallly don't think that putting open PvP into EnB -Emu captures the spirit of the EnB most of us knew and loved.

Lastly... EnB-Emulator is not EnB-Live. I think we can all recognise this: but also bear in mind that an emulator, by definition, is something that attempts to reproduce the original thing it strives to emulate.

And I think that the Devs have done splendidly in emulating the experience from EnB-Live thus far.

[Alessan]

Well unless I see a post from a GM or DEV saying there is no KSing, Ksing does not exist.

So listening to what some ppl think, if I get some people to sit at a NAV and when I want to leave just get more friends to sit at the NAV with a boss, we would own the NAV and no one else could ever try and kill the boss.

That is the fun of the game to fight and kill mobs. I remember the old days of live when I was not in Static and a group of static ppl would come in and we would have two groups of 6 fight to see how could kill the mobs. THat was fun.

Now every thinks you can own navs. No one owns a nav. I guess if a basket ball team has never one the NBA championship then the other team should just not play and give it to them because they need one. You would never see that.

If you can't win the 51% killing a mob then you need to build your toon more or get a group, it is the fun of the game to fight and kill mobs and compete against others.

Devs, GMs, am I wrong and you are telling us that people own navs and now no KSing? Till I see that Ksing is nothing

I didnt read this post... but damn its long! I bet this has to be close to the longest thread on the forum... gratz

/edit ah well it loses a little bit of length without the multiple sigs at the end... but still... gratz

[garblesoup]

What is it with this waking the threads from the dead thing that's going on? First it was the Discussing RL in NP chat and now this.

[C Del[IS]]

Yeah, it's just not worth arguing over. We're supposed to be a community of friends working toward a common goal, not of enemies and rivals.

[Starfox]

Ok, reading thru this post has been an intesting read in the argument of semantics at best. The whole idea of KSing is very simply broke down.

Player A is fighting a MOB,

Player B see's player A fighting that MOB, and kill's the MOB because he or she can for what ever reason. Dosnt matter what MOB it might be

In my book, that makes Player B a self ritous arrogant jackass that carries no respect for others, and is incapable of showing common decency or acceptable social behaviour.

Let me put it another way,

Player A has a wallet stuffed full of money,

Player B is bigger and able to beat the crap out of player A and take the wallet. By all rights, that makes him a thief.

If Player B cannot or will not show common decency and respect for another person in a game, it is not likly that player B is capable of showing the same to another person in real life. Argue semantics to the cows come home, but wrong is wrong any way you look at it. Dosnt matter if its implied or written or said out loud. If you delibertly screw someone else over because you can then you are not a person I would want to associate with in a game or real life, and I doubt many others would either.

It all boils down to one thing, respecting others, Period. thats it in a nut shell.

Now if player B cannot or will not understand this simple point, then player B deserves whatever he or she may get as a result of their irresponsible behaviour.

[fuulishone]

Ok, reading thru this post has been an intesting read in the argument of semantics at best. The whole idea of KSing is very simply broke down.

Player A is fighting a MOB,

Player B see's player A fighting that MOB, and kill's the MOB because he or she can for what ever reason. Dosnt matter what MOB it might be

... (snip)

Let me put it another way,

Player A has a wallet stuffed full of money,

Player B is bigger and able to beat the crap out of player A and take the wallet. By all rights, that makes him a thief.

... (snip)

Your second example isn't exactly accurate, you're missing a third party. The more accurate example would be...

Thug A is mugging Random Victim #1 with a knife.

Thug B comes along and sees Thug A mugging Random Victim #1 with a knife. Thug B has a bigger knife. He pushes Thug A out of the way, kills Random Victim #1 and makes off with the wallet leaving Thug A behind to cry about the size of his knife.

Another example...

Guy A sees Hot Chick #1 at the bar and tries to buy her a beer.

Guy B sees this occur and is better looking and has more money. Guy B intercepts Hot Chick #1 and buys her a martini and walks off with her, leaving Guy A at the bar with two beers to cry in.

In both cases, Guy B is certainly a jerk for stepping in, but nothing says what he did is out of order (altho you can argue that the mugging case, both are out of order).

The game doesn't penalize folks for being jerks, only if they speak like jerks and use foul language. It's unfortunate, but all games that include contested mobs and award credit based upon damage done will run into this problem. Your only choice is to learn to deal with it. You could learn to move on if you find someone with bigger guns ready to race you for the mob kill. Or you could learn to always approach these highly sought after mobs in a group to ensure a higher chance of success.

[Starfox]

Your second example isn't exactly accurate, you're missing a third party. The more accurate example would be...

Thug A is mugging Random Victim #1 with a knife.

Thug B comes along and sees Thug A mugging Random Victim #1 with a knife. Thug B has a bigger knife. He pushes Thug A out of the way, kills Random Victim #1 and makes off with the wallet leaving Thug A behind to cry about the size of his knife.

Another example...

Guy A sees Hot Chick #1 at the bar and tries to buy her a beer.

Guy B sees this occur and is better looking and has more money. Guy B intercepts Hot Chick #1 and buys her a martini and walks off with her, leaving Guy A at the bar with two beers to cry in.

In both cases, Guy B is certainly a jerk for stepping in, but nothing says what he did is out of order (altho you can argue that the mugging case, both are out of order).

The game doesn't penalize folks for being jerks, only if they speak like jerks and use foul language. It's unfortunate, but all games that include contested mobs and award credit based upon damage done will run into this problem. Your only choice is to learn to deal with it. You could learn to move on if you find someone with bigger guns ready to race you for the mob kill. Or you could learn to always approach these highly sought after mobs in a group to ensure a higher chance of success.

What you said above is very true, however there is a third way, that is for folks to show some consideration and respect for other players in the game or for that matter real life, the character of an individule can always be determined by observing how he plays.

[Tyran]

What you said above is very true, however there is a third way, that is for folks to show some consideration and respect for other players in the game or for that matter real life

Such an idealist...

How can you have respect and consideration in a game where the endgame is to get ubers to get even more ubers which are on a tight spawn? (if they are not on a tight spawn then they are not ubers)

Also a lot of players are below 25years old and will naturally show less respect and consideration.

So I'm guessing you are one of those grandpa players who don't like how rude the youngsters been getting these days

[Starfox]

Such an idealist...

How can you have respect and consideration in a game where the endgame is to get ubers to get even more ubers which are on a tight spawn? (if they are not on a tight spawn then they are not ubers)

Also a lot of players are below 25years old and will naturally show less respect and consideration.

So I'm guessing you are one of those grandpa players who don't like how rude the youngsters been getting these days

Your last comment was interesting, am i to assume that your one of those under 25 year old players that dont have respect for the expectations of someone 20 or 30 years older and has considerably more miles on their Moccasin's ?

In any case, it has been my experience that rudeness, disrespect and inconsideration knows no boundries where age is concerned, I have seen 10 year olds show more respect to an individule that 70 year olds and vice versa. Yes, I am an idealist, I believe that people can be BETTER than they are of they CHOOSE to be. I once heard it said that "It is far easier for a civilized man to act as a barbarian, than it is for a barbarian to act as a civilized man". In short, for some folks it is easier for them to be jerks, than it is to be considerate or respectfull. They choose what is easy because they dont have the intestinal fortitude to choose what is HARD. Like I said earlier, you can tell a lot about the character of an individle by watching how they play their game.

So to answer your question "How can you have respect and consideration in a game where the endgame is to get ubers to get even more ubers which are on a tight spawn?", - the answer is this; YOU CHOOSE to have respect, YOU CHOOSE not to KS, YOU CHOOSE to be civilized, be it in a game, be it in your work, or to your neigbors. It is a choice the person makes, and it is the choice that defines that person. Its really not that complicated, and yes, I know it is a lot to expect. But the point here is, if no one expects a person to be decent, then where is the motivation for a person to choose to be decent? Do we just say "well, they are gonna act bad so i should just accept them to be bad?" and not hold others to higher expectations? Im sure this is a topic that has been well debated by those far more qualified than I, and they havnt found answers either.

Sorry about the edits, i read it over and keep finding typos, and i probably still missed a couple, so add or move letters around as needed to make it work.

Fox

Edited April 9, 2010 by Starfox

[Gobblu]

I have to agree with starfox. Personally if I start to kite something with my terran, and a pw comes in a blasts it to death, once could be an accident, but if it continues, that's another story. Playing the combat style of your char shouldn't leave you open to killsteals. If I'm hunting and I accidently kill a mob someone else had started fighting, I'll appologize and move on. Some of the missions for lower level terrans you have no choice but to kite. I have had problems with higher level terrans who were grouped coming in and taking out the mob I'm obviously fighting (had it down to almost 1/2 they came in and blasted it with one volley. I tried to ask them to leave the mob for me because I was doing a mission, and they pulled the old "I have bigger missiles, so I can out damage you". That type of attitude is what makes a lot of mmorpgs suck. I was hoping since we all love this game so much, and have gotten older since it sunsetted, that that attitude wouldn't be so prevalant this time, unfortunatly I'm being sadly disappointed. All I could do, was log another char and play it for a while and come back later once they had finally moved on.

[bondct]

well it has been my experience that most ks'ing is not over ubers... the average ks is over joe nobody mob imo... you can try and twist it all you want... but in most instances that I have heard about or seen... its not about 1 mob either... ks'ing imo and if I were to define it, is like rape... its not about the kill or the sex... its about harassament...

I will add though that many of the people that post they were ks'd... really werent, as imo there has to be intent...

[Ryle [N7R]]

Crichton, youre still being a child? Honestly dude?

Sorry but I think the days of being griefers ended when we were teenagers. Im almost 30 years old.

Please, just stop acting like youre bad or something. I knocked you off your high horse enough to know youre nothing special with your "big guns" picking on the lesser combat classes.

You dont own the game, the nav, the spawn, or anything else.

Im asking you nicely to knock it off. I was able to knock you down in live, and if I have to put you in your place here, I will too.

Stop being a bully.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Ryle

[bondct]

Sorry but I think the days of being griefers ended when we were teenagers. Im almost 30 years old.

oohhhhhhh almost 30... so does that mean you have the extra large letters on your keyboard and you play in enb in 800 x 600???

just kidding... but couldnt pass up the almost 30... when you get to my age... and someone tells me they are almost 30 that means they are just a little older than 20

Edited April 11, 2010 by Avani

[C Del[IS]]

I get the feeling this thread has been going on too long. Why can't we all just get along?!

[Yazuly]

I'm beginning to believe that the intentional KS'er, especially the 'my gun is bigger than yours' type is just another form of being a bully.

[Starfox]

oohhhhhhh almost 30... so does that mean you have the extra large letters on your keyboard and you play in enb in 800 x 600???

just kidding... but couldnt pass up the almost 30... when you get to my age... and someone tells me they are almost 30 that means they are just a little older than 20

LOL Im almost 56, and judging from my typos, i think i do need the larger letters on my keyboard, I won der can i get a dog that types, kinad like a seeing eye dog, only with better typing skills than i have?

[seekeronos]

This thread gets the:

EPIC THREAD AWARD

Prize: "Would a mod lock this thing and let it sink to the murky depths of the Memory Hole™ where it belongs...?"

[Riia [LDEV]]

Hi

I agree!

Now locked.

Riia