Let's make sure we all understand what a killsteal is

[seekeronos]

Nothing wrong with this game by design for PvP. And I don't mind non-consensual, but it's irritating to hear the solo players wine about it and do what you just did...

That wasn't meant as a slap to _all_ PVPers. There's always some good folks and some bad apples in every mix. But honestly - while there may be some who see themselves as guardians who gank the griefers who camp just outside the newbie safe zones --- there are those players (or as you may have typed them, "whiners") who'd simply rather not be the target of someone else's aggressions - well intentioned or otherwise.

And I'm not criticizing the presence or lack of PvP in EnB: it's just that EA/Westwood kind of put that arena thing in Live as an afterthought.

Out of the box, and by design - EnB is primarily a PvE game. And -- that is a very big reason why I enjoyed it in live, and am once again enjoying it here in the Emulator.

Now coming back to the original argument I suppose a similarcasemight exist for me as a miner, where if I am mining in a roid belt at Prospect lv.4 with a lv.3 sculptor and a Roc's burst and a Harpy's grip... and maybe a nice reactor and Monoceros once I get my slot upgrade... I'll do well in a lv. 4-6 roid belt.

But while with that set-up I could (very slowly and painfully) mine a lv. 7 field.... there's no reason I should complain when a max level/max equipped JE shows up and starts cherry-picking all the lv.7+ ores from under my nose.

My bad for mining out of my level, and hopefully, I'll have the good sense to pick a roid belt I can harvest at a good pace.

At the same time, there's no reason to be a jerk: and in the case of the OP and the guy he was conflicting with, there was no small amount of small-minded childishness going on from both of them.

I guess while the remark about "kitty island adventure" and "carebears" (haven't heard that term in a few years, lol) is amusing, I'll say these this last thing:

"Life is not fair... but that doesn't give one license to be an asshat, either".

One need remember that the JE who's targeted mob you deliberately shoot from underneath him just might be that JE who can JS you or build that über reactor you've been coveting for cheap.

Or that TT who can give you a great deal on components, or help clear/draw away enemy mobs when you are incapacitated, Etc. etc.

[Daywolf]

Out of the box, and by design - EnB is primarily a PvE game. And -- that is a very big reason why I enjoyed it in live, and am once again enjoying it here in the Emulator.

You are speaking of EnB live. All that is server-side. We have absolutely no original server code. We have no PvE, out of the box all there is is a deep dark void and nothing more. There is no arena, there is no mob spawn, there are no combat mechanics/scripts, no NPC dialog, no mission terminals, all lost. PvE and PvP is what we make of it, there are no limitations or predefined spectrums that must be rigidly adhered to. PvE is desired for live simulation, but PvP is by no means locked into what live once did, and can co-exist with PvE and one not effecting the other, neither by mechanics nor community involvement.

[seekeronos]

You are speaking of EnB live. All that is server-side. We have absolutely no original server code. We have no PvE, out of the box all there is is a deep dark void and nothing more. There is no arena, there is no mob spawn, there are no combat mechanics/scripts, no NPC dialog, no mission terminals, all lost. PvE and PvP is what we make of it, there are no limitations or predefined spectrums that must be rigidly adhered to. PvE is desired for live simulation, but PvP is by no means locked into what live once did, and can co-exist with PvE and one not effecting the other, neither by mechanics nor community involvement.

The way I see it, and understand things... this here emulator is intended to emulate EnB Live (albeit not "perfectly" mirroring Live, and with no expectation that the final product will mirror Live) - by shaking off some of the things that were really kind of "meh" (such as the 5k cap maximum warp speed) and changing MOB locations or improving enemy AI and what-have-you.

I hardly doubt that the devs will pursue any truly radical modifications such as coding open PvP into the game (perhaps on a limited, consensual basis, such as an instanced zone as another poster suggested with the "Gate Wars" thread elsewhere in this forum).

I would certainly hope that the Devs continue to provide EnB Emulator in the same PvE spirit of the original game - it is what drew many of us to play it in the first place.

PvP can be fun - so long as it is consensual, reasonably level-contained (i.e. not having c50 PWs, TE's and JDs one-shotting CL10 miners trying to make big rocks into small ones) and otherwise occurring out of the path of travel of major trade routes, lower level/newbie/lowbie PvE areas, etc. (having PvP'ers gate-camping a PvP zone along the Fenris-Somerled path would certainly suck).

But all that is really off topic: The main point of this is that while you might be able to act like a 10-year old and even get away with it, using the "game mechanics allow it, so it's okay" excuse... it doesn't make it right, nor should such people expect that they will be well liked... or helped.

It comes back to karma and maintaining harmony with your fellow players wherever possible.

[bondct]

You are speaking of EnB live. All that is server-side. We have absolutely no original server code. We have no PvE, out of the box all there is is a deep dark void and nothing more. There is no arena, there is no mob spawn, there are no combat mechanics/scripts, no NPC dialog, no mission terminals, all lost. PvE and PvP is what we make of it, there are no limitations or predefined spectrums that must be rigidly adhered to. PvE is desired for live simulation, but PvP is by no means locked into what live once did, and can co-exist with PvE and one not effecting the other, neither by mechanics nor community involvement.

you left out something...

"there is no spoon"

[Polymandius]

Killstealing is a myth in this game, but there is bad etiquette.

I can refute this statement quite quickly. What if someone hovered over you while cloaked, just waiting for you to make your first hit on a MOB, and then killed it in a single shot, recloaking thereafter before you could identify them? And followed you, repeating this until you gave up and left? I would call that killstealing, or even better, a form of griefing. Such things did happen during live. Obviously, anyone who could one shot MOBs in a given area isn't gaining XP. For the trade xp perhaps? Nah, a sector has a lot of space and MOBS, there's no reason to intentionally try to crowd anyone out or impede their progress. People CAN be asses if they want to. Some folks have fertile imaginations in that regard.

Of course, there IS such a thing as bad etiquette, like moving into an area without regards to those who were there before, trying to take all possible kills... or asteroids in the case of mining. A little consideration can go a long way.

Fortunately, ENB players seem to have far more common sense in this regard than in many other places. That's a real curiosity.

[Floss]

I can refute this statement quite quickly. What if someone hovered over you while cloaked, just waiting for you to make your first hit on a MOB, and then killed it in a single shot, recloaking thereafter before you could identify them? And followed you, repeating this until you gave up and left? I would call that killstealing, or even better, a form of griefing. Such things did happen during live. Obviously, anyone who could one shot MOBs in a given area isn't gaining XP. For the trade xp perhaps? Nah, a sector has a lot of space and MOBS, there's no reason to intentionally try to crowd anyone out or impede their progress. People CAN be asses if they want to. Some folks have fertile imaginations in that regard.

Of course, there IS such a thing as bad etiquette, like moving into an area without regards to those who were there before, trying to take all possible kills... or asteroids in the case of mining. A little consideration can go a long way.

Fortunately, ENB players seem to have far more common sense in this regard than in many other places. That's a real curiosity.

Stealing implies you have ownership over something, you don't in this game at all. What you described is someone being an idiot, but there is no "stealing".

Chasing someone around is griefing/harrassment.

[bondct]

I can refute this statement quite quickly. What if someone hovered over you while cloaked, just waiting for you to make your first hit on a MOB, and then killed it in a single shot, recloaking thereafter before you could identify them? And followed you, repeating this until you gave up and left? I would call that killstealing, or even better, a form of griefing. Such things did happen during live. Obviously, anyone who could one shot MOBs in a given area isn't gaining XP. For the trade xp perhaps? Nah, a sector has a lot of space and MOBS, there's no reason to intentionally try to crowd anyone out or impede their progress. People CAN be asses if they want to. Some folks have fertile imaginations in that regard.

Of course, there IS such a thing as bad etiquette, like moving into an area without regards to those who were there before, trying to take all possible kills... or asteroids in the case of mining. A little consideration can go a long way.

Fortunately, ENB players seem to have far more common sense in this regard than in many other places. That's a real curiosity.

really that is not killstealing... that is harassment which is in a lotta tos's slang for that could be greifing... but it is definitely not killstealing ... and if someone followed you from spot to spot you could actually report them and gt action

[Polymandius]

Stealing implies you have ownership over something, you don't in this game at all. What you described is someone being an idiot, but there is no "stealing".

Chasing someone around is griefing/harrassment.

You realise that you are simply being pedantic... I hope. But hey, have it your way.

It all ends up as a distinction without a measurable difference... being an ass. I suppose if the game mechanics simply gave the kill to the first to hit it, you would argue the question of "ownership" differently of necessity... Such as those who tag MOBS for ownership to spite others would. And yes, I've seen that as well.

No matter the method for alotting "kill credit", someone will pick an argument over what is, again, simply being an ass.... and some will use whatever game mechanics provided to try and turn what most people would consider a character flaw, into a virtue by their own estimates. Same arguments, different day.

[Floss]

You realise that you are simply being pedantic... I hope. But hey, have it your way.

It all ends up as a distinction without a measurable difference... being an ass. I suppose if the game mechanics simply gave the kill to the first to hit it, you would argue the question of "ownership" differently of necessity... Such as those who tag MOBS for ownership to spite others would. And yes, I've seen that as well.

No matter the method for alotting "kill credit", someone will pick an argument over what is, again, simply being an ass.... and some will use whatever game mechanics provided to try and turn what most people would consider a character flaw, into a virtue by their own estimates. Same arguments, different day.

If people get over this perceived concept of ownership, they won't get upset about "Kill stealing", and so much nerd rage and accompanying threats of smiting their house IRL could dissapear.

I'm not advocating shooting people's stuff, but if somoene gets "my kill", such is life, let's move on to the next mob.

[Polymandius]

If people get over this perceived concept of ownership, they won't get upset about "Kill stealing", and so much nerd rage and accompanying threats of smiting their house IRL could dissapear.

I'm not advocating shooting people's stuff, but if somoene gets "my kill", such is life, let's move on to the next mob.

Hmmmmmmm..... I'm really curious about something.

If the "game mechanics" gave credit to the first to strike a MOB, which side of the argument would you fall on, the side who says "I shot it first, so neener neener, the game mechanics say I screw you", or "Jeez dude, why be such an ass, we were here first."?

It's a hypothetical, of course. All the arguments in this thread have been hashed out again and again in every game. It is interesting to see how people think tho. I've always noted 2 fairly disparate outlooks on it.

[Floss]

Hmmmmmmm..... I'm really curious about something.

If the "game mechanics" gave credit to the first to strike a MOB, which side of the argument would you fall on, the side who says "I shot it first, so neener neener, the game mechanics say I screw you", or "Jeez dude, why be such an ass, we were here first."?

It's a hypothetical, of course. All the arguments in this thread have been hashed out again and again in every game. It is interesting to see how people think tho. I've always noted 2 fairly disparate outlooks on it.

I would say "D'oh they got it first, better luck next time". Raging over e-content is no good.

Again, people can be weenies about stuff. Boss content is different... FFXI was a good example of that (already discussed by someone else).

I don't think we can blame any mechanic for people that are just genuine jerks that enjoy making other people upset. Or nerd rage. Nerd rage makes me smile though.

[Taallonn]

Hmmmmmmm..... I'm really curious about something.

If the "game mechanics" gave credit to the first to strike a MOB, which side of the argument would you fall on, the side who says "I shot it first, so neener neener, the game mechanics say I screw you", or "Jeez dude, why be such an ass, we were here first."?

It's a hypothetical, of course. All the arguments in this thread have been hashed out again and again in every game. It is interesting to see how people think tho. I've always noted 2 fairly disparate outlooks on it.

For me it's always been situational.

In this game, I go about my business and usually don't try to KS, sometimes it happens and typically i apologize if i felt i was in the wrong. Now if someone starts yelling in local that i picked the wrong class as they zoom in and attack the target Ive started attacking, is going to get my blood up a bit, and i would then feel obligated to make sure they left the area so i could be in my zen farming stage again....meaning I would pull out all stops to get more damage in than them, if possible.

In other games it depends on a few things....

Are they the same faction? Would try to group to get a quest done faster

Are they lower lv than me and questing to level as opposed to just farming? Also, ask if they need help or move away a little to let them finish their quest.

Is it a rare spawn? For achievement that i need, and possible loot drop i would try to get it

Or am I just aoe farming and not paying attention to who is around......i would continue what i was doing unless i got a tell saying they needed a mob, then Id offer to help more than likely

[Guest Genghisbob]

I have one rule that I follow. I will not fire on any MOB that has damage to it when I press the fire button. After that, it is too hard to tell who is doing what damage. Especially with 20 swirlly tings going around your ship. :-/

[Guest Palfrey]

Of the few names that I remember from live, Crichton is toward the top of the list. When I saw his name flash by in modern times, I instantly cringed. I had hoped he had grown up and learned some manners and I'm sad to say he's the same small minded jerk he always was in live.

[bondct]

actually, i think that this game is designed around the concept of kill stealing... I mean think about it... if your a TE you fire your weapons from 7k and cant see the cloaked jd sneaking up on it... so they curse you...

or you are a jd right up the mobs pedantic azz (I just wanted to use the word pedantic)... and a te 7k away fires a missle that you dont see and u beam the mob up on high doing 51% dmg instant... so they curse you...

either way, people curse... hence the bad language filter... like I said earlier... Return to Castle Wolfenstein... no ks'ing there just a real bad ass sniper rifle... go nutz

[Daywolf]

The way I see it, and understand things... this here emulator is intended to emulate EnB Live (albeit not "perfectly" mirroring Live, and with no expectation that the final product will mirror Live) - by shaking off some of the things that were really kind of "meh" (such as the 5k cap maximum warp speed) and changing MOB locations or improving enemy AI and what-have-you.

I hardly doubt that the devs will pursue any truly radical modifications such as coding open PvP into the game (perhaps on a limited, consensual basis, such as an instanced zone as another poster suggested with the "Gate Wars" thread elsewhere in this forum).

I would certainly hope that the Devs continue to provide EnB Emulator in the same PvE spirit of the original game - it is what drew many of us to play it in the first place.

PvP can be fun - so long as it is consensual, reasonably level-contained (i.e. not having c50 PWs, TE's and JDs one-shotting CL10 miners trying to make big rocks into small ones) and otherwise occurring out of the path of travel of major trade routes, lower level/newbie/lowbie PvE areas, etc. (having PvP'ers gate-camping a PvP zone along the Fenris-Somerled path would certainly suck).

But all that is really off topic: The main point of this is that while you might be able to act like a 10-year old and even get away with it, using the "game mechanics allow it, so it's okay" excuse... it doesn't make it right, nor should such people expect that they will be well liked... or helped.

It comes back to karma and maintaining harmony with your fellow players wherever possible.

It's not off topic, you just disagree with it. What it is is the only true resolution to stop KS'ing. Of course I'm probably just talking to myself, I mean you brought up open PvP, threw every person that PvP's into one lump of messed up players. Where did I ever say that I was in favor of open PvP here? Why would I want to hear all the soloist players wine about it? I mean they wine about any forced grouping game, just like what happened to old EQ. To have open PvP requires that players travel in groups for protection. That's why I don't have a problem with it (as I said), because I'm not a solo player... or try not to be but it's not easy finding groups in mmogs since they have moved to solo environment games over the past seven years or so. You bring up some crazy point about EnB not being designed for the ability to have PvP, but you are absolutely wrong, but I don't think you heard a word I said. You can't "modify" something that doesn't exist, and that includes PvE. PvE here is a recreation from scratch, not a mod, it was in the same state as PvP was from the beginning, non-existent, just like it was in ST1. There is no game generator where you press a button and all the scripting/coding/systems are magically re-generated. It's only your opinion, you don;t like this or that, but that does not make it by design.

either way, people curse... hence the bad language filter... like I said earlier... Return to Castle Wolfenstein... no ks'ing there just a real bad ass sniper rifle... go nutz

People still play that in multiplayer? Hmmm... I have it but just not installed any longer. Oh well, I have Planetside and BF2142 for that type of game anything with American style mech-warriors

[akim]

This topic should not even be here... there are only 300+ ppl playing (including alts).

And yes...i can't call my missiles back...

[VonBon]

i agree with Kyp on this issue ...

[Daywolf]

This topic should not even be here... there are only 300+ ppl playing (including alts).

And yes...i can't call my missiles back...

I absolutely agree. You pretty much need to set out to grief other players if KS'ing, currently. Rare instances where groups are squabbling over some rare named mob, but instancing code CAN be written for the server.

...though I wouldn't count on instancing any time soon, really need multi-server/server farming code first (many servers for one game world/universe) with dynamic load balancing. But maybe someone will start writing and testing instancing soon, since it can take some time to really polish.

[Zackman [LDEV]]

...4 pages for such simple thing...in my books

I dont talk about killsteal or mobsteal, i am talking about fairplay and common sense, so here is what i do:

If i jump in and there are people already around, i ask for an invite.

If the group is full or they dont want to invite me, i ask for "share" (left spawn, right spawn).

If all fails, we have a problem (never happend so far).

Boss/rare mobs:

If a group is camping, they have the "first option" in my book.

If they "overcamp", i ask for a break to let our group camp a bit as well.

If all fails, we have a problem - the last step then is "most damage kill" then (intentional damage race).

This last step is caused due to "unfair" acting of the overcamping group, so no need to complain (house made problem).

Hunting general:

Whenever i see a player around, i watch the mob i have targetted, esp. the health.

If the health is not 100%, i wont' shoot the mob !

Before i "take" this mob, i also check if there are already missiles on the way.

If both is no, i go after this mob.

This has to do with fair play and common sense.

This is an mmo-server and a consequence is that more people will hunt the same mob/same spot.

Its a MUST to arrange with others and it will work 95% of the time, if you act fair and nice - my experience.

Yes, it happend to me that i was accidiently shooting an "owned" mob. I immediatly stop firing then and send a tell to the other player (Sorry, didnt see you, dont want to ksing)

If i was doing more damage with one shot (low mob, hunting for eg. a low level device to map), i open the corpse and give the loot to the other player !!

It happend also to me, that others shoot "my mob". If they are sorry and act fair (no repeating), all is fine.

If they are jerks (happend as well), i will response appropiate...

[Daywolf]

...4 pages for such simple thing...in my books

I dont talk about killsteal or mobsteal, i am talking about fairplay and common sense, so here is what i do:

While I agree that it is simple from a moral standpoint, in practice there is only the mechanical solution. Was it Kyp that said that in part it’s about community which sets the standard etc (paraphrasing)? But even player justice has proven to be an utter failure. Take Ultima Online for instance, the great concept at launch was that Player Justice will trump abuse issues, but ultimately that was purely idealism and the result was rivers of blood flowing through Britannia, mostly easy kill newbie blood. Though there were many players that did enforce Player Justice often called Red Hunters, we/they were outnumbered by players that said they were justified in doing so because of the mechanics of the game. Even stealing houses from people and selling on eBay for real-world money was perfectly acceptable to them (and ignored by EA), and forming guilds just for that purpose was very popular.

No, ultimately it needs to be handled on the server-code Nanny level style, because in a game world where consequences from negative actions are only temporal (if even that) players will take advantage of the system and thumb their noses at the community on a whole.

Ok so why not make it a comprehensive Nanny system? Here is the problem, and I’ve written over 500 server side mmog scripts from quests to D20 combat systems (the whole shebang), the problem is that such a nanny level code is heavy on server processes. The more lengthy you script a particular system, the more server power you need to execute such scripts. Not a problem for scripts that are rarely executed, but in this case it is something that gets executed by all players on a regular basis. So to make the perfect nanny script, well in theory it can be done, but you would need to invest in a powerful server cluster to actually run the game. Make sense?

So how do you deal with it here at this time? Well I mentioned a situation I was in on ST3 where someone took advantage of the system, even seeing that the MOB kept attacking me so that they would get safe attack damage while I struggled with damage and drained power (was the second of two mobs in Carpenter). I handled it by not saying anything, just moving on. I do that because I know the person may do something like the OP did, try to start a flame war then maybe post it in forums. Some people get off on that, it’s fun for them. And this guy, when I returned 15 minutes later after making a run to a station to clear inventory, he was gone, he could not handle the spawn area with what he selected at the login screen. I mean he was even level with me, trying to attack them up close while I was kiting which even that was unsafe, but if he had requested to party we could have both benefited, but that is not as easy as KS’ing.

[chachazero]

Ah. I have to say that Normally I would be like, Oh i'm sorry if i ks'd or if i got ks'd by someone who shot at it and didn't know i was there shooting at it. No big deal, get some patience (really.. 10 mins is not that bad. you try going after bosses that spawn once a day) But if the guy is actually gunning with me for superior damage then yeah i'll get a little miffed. Why ya gotta be a jackass and tout your big guns like they rule the game? It's all about courtesy and not being a giant D-bag, which I see the OP being one. But on the flip side, it is a game mechanic, so you're gonna have to deal with people like that. In cases like this bring MOAR DAKKA. You can never have enough Dakka. Sometimes you just have to fight fire with moar fire sadly.

[Lord Vatta]

A killsteal is taking a mob from a group/person, that has been camping a spawn point for a long time, by getting a single shot off when you just fly in/by.

If two people are camping the same spot....even for 5 minutes...they both have the same right to the mob.

Now here is the fun thing with E&B. Players cannot Killsteals. You can in most MMO's but not in E&B.

Whoever does 51% damage (or the highest percentage if 3 or more players are all attacking) gets the credit for the kill....period. If you fail to get credit it is your own fault. Either you do not have good enough weapons, are not the right class, are not using the right tactics, or did not bring a strong enough group/player (gun) with you. In any of these situations the responsibility for the loss of the kill is on the person that did not understand the E&B design team/Westwood's design for getting credit for a kill.

Do Not Try to Accuse other players of KSing, threatening them, or their guilds with your childish inability to understand the game functionality.

Yes, this goes out to a specific person....and yes I do not apologize for bringing a bigger gun. Use your resources (guildmates, alts, better gear, guild relationships, grouping, tactics, etc) so that in the future you will get the kill. Just because you have been "camping" a spot does not mean a mob belongs to you.

I will finish by saying this: The game is pre-Alpha....the mobs have very basic AI and many skills that do not work. Learn the game, test it, generate bug reports, and have fun. Please do not devalue the work that this wonderful Dev team has spent with childish and threatening behavior.

All i have to say is WOW. Now, I didn't play on a crap server (Orion was a blast and people weren't @ssha@ts), but after reading the 4pages+ of responses and rereading your original post, you come off as much of a crybaby as Evers did in tells. Why bring this up here on the forums? To throw your epeen around? Does posting this screenshot make you a bigger man? Now I can go on and be an @ss like you are apparently ingame, and proceed to point out your obvious flaws of character, but why? Quite honestly BOTH of you need therapy. You for throwing this up here on the forums like you are someone important, and Evers for throwing his "big guild" around ingame.

We are all here to relive the glory days of EnB, and to HELP THE DEVS with their phenominal job so far. Seriously, if you are going to act like this, tell us all up front and I'll be sure to not join a guild/group with you both in it. BTW, its just a GAME. GROW UP. Thinking you are more important than the next guy, lol, thats a laugh.

[seekeronos]

It's not off topic, you just disagree with it. What it is is the only true resolution to stop KS'ing. Of course I'm probably just talking to myself, I mean you brought up open PvP, threw every person that PvP's into one lump of messed up players. Where did I ever say that I was in favor of open PvP here? Why would I want to hear all the soloist players wine about it? I mean they wine about any forced grouping game, just like what happened to old EQ. To have open PvP requires that players travel in groups for protection. That's why I don't have a problem with it (as I said), because I'm not a solo player... or try not to be but it's not easy finding groups in mmogs since they have moved to solo environment games over the past seven years or so.

Okay, I can accept your point that PvP would be a solution, if not the definitive solution to KS'ing. I'm just going to say that I don't think that such a solution is necessary, given the (existing) mechanics of the game (biggest DPS = win).

As I've mentioned before, simply having the better/best DPS ... should not be license to be a total jerk. Of course, none of this will do much of anything about basic human nature (which is selfish at its core, unvarnished level)... but as Zackman suggested, simply communicating (or attempting to) with your opposition to either group or share or in the case of boss spawns, rotate the spawns...

...well, civility can work wonders. I pointed out the way the high-level Japanese raiding guilds (linkshells) in FFXI would rotate spawns of certain über MObs... it's not something that is beyond impossible, with a little talk and some "give and take", both on an individual and on a guild-to-guild basis.

I'll say this for the EnB community: By and large, the player base that is here - and especially those that were around during Live - have a much better sense of game community than a lot of other MMOs, as regarding helping one another out, and generally being civil.

There'll always be those jerks who want to show off how big their guns are (immaturity + basic human nature) and eventually, the community will deal with them. If the responses on this thread are any indication, the OP has not won too many new friends through his actions.

Touching on the solo-ist item, I'll say that about 85% of my time in EnB (both here and in live) was spent solo-ing. I really do like the *ability* to do that - and for all but those über bosses and endgame content... the ability to do stuff solo *while* chatting with friends... makes me happy.

FFXI was a forced grouping game... you simply *had* to have certain ideal party configurations in order to have a chance of gaining any decent xp. And for some jobs (like Dark Knight /DRK) that meant waiting six hours for a chance at an invite, while Bards (BRD) and White Mages (WHM) could simply fart in Lower Jeuno, and they'd get four or five invites. And yes, my time is valuable, so I leveled in WHM and BRD.

To the end that creating PvP in the Emulator as an end to KS'ing,I say.... Don't.

Forcing players to group for protection from other players ala Ultima Online - that would ruin what EnB was about for me, and I'm sure that I am not alone in this opinion. That, and I simply don't have that sort of time on my hands: for the most part, I log in to kill some Chavez, do some trade runs, build some stuff, mine some rocks under the nose of some orefield guardian, and chat with guildies. Yup, my best power-gaming days are behind me.

So, I guess I am one of those "whiny solo-ists" after all, heheh.

You bring up some crazy point about EnB not being designed for the ability to have PvP, but you are absolutely wrong, but I don't think you heard a word I said. You can't "modify" something that doesn't exist, and that includes PvE. PvE here is a recreation from scratch, not a mod, it was in the same state as PvP was from the beginning, non-existent, just like it was in ST1. There is no game generator where you press a button and all the scripting/coding/systems are magically re-generated. It's only your opinion, you don;t like this or that, but that does not make it by design.

My opinion, yes. And, you are 120% correct that if wanted, we could build PvP into the Emulator code where it wasn't in Live. As far as Live went, it was not by design, a PvP game.

And you are right about re-creating the server code from scratch: Emulator *could* easily become a PvP game, if that is what the community wanted, and the Devs saw fit to code it.

My point was that in Live, PvP was an afterthought. The Westwood (later EA) dev team saw fit to leave true PvP out of the game. I think (yes, an opinion) this was an overall good thing.

I further think that implementing open PvP would seriously detract from the game that many of us (especially those of us who really like playing miner and builder classes).

If we must have PvP, let's do it by way of instancing, or even just re-purposing the arena or creating a separate series of zones where the trigger-happy can smite each other until the Dzurai come home.

But for the love of Terran credits... please don't make me have to think about getting ganked as I gate through New Inverness on my way to drop of nanobots at Somerled.

I don't think I am alone in this opinion:

"If it aint broke, don't fix it". The current "best" solution to KS-ing lies with whoever brings the biggest guns to the party.

But an even better solution, is the people and the server culture that socially discourages ass-hattery at boss camps, or hunting grounds in general.

Introducing open PvP would be a showstopper for me; it would no longer be EnB, but EnB with a pile of mentally 10-year old kids camping the gates and resource fields looking to kill off some non-warrior class who was there simply to enjoy a nice night of PvE or mining, etc.

And though I'm sure some such "Knights of Vengeance" vigilante group would arise to shut down the PK'ers... I reallly don't think that putting open PvP into EnB -Emu captures the spirit of the EnB most of us knew and loved.

Lastly... EnB-Emulator is not EnB-Live. I think we can all recognise this: but also bear in mind that an emulator, by definition, is something that attempts to reproduce the original thing it strives to emulate.

And I think that the Devs have done splendidly in emulating the experience from EnB-Live thus far.

[Daywolf]

I don't think I am alone in this opinion:

There really isn’t any discussion about open PvP, apart from people using it as an example to try to stop the decision to add PvP at some point as has already been decided upon. But among those that PvP (of which also PvE) there is no mention among them to make it open. You jumped into such a discussion with a slanted remark, was anyone discussing open PvP in that thread?

Yes open PvP could solve some KS’ing issues to a degree, or great degree, better than trying to script the fix, but would only open another can of worms. There is no fool-proof fix, apart from instancing. Would you really want to play EnB all so instanced like Guild Wars or Anarchy Online? Instancing is only good in special cases, and hah certainly not for any co-op PvP. PvP is far more/better than just two combatants mindlessly slugging it out in some arena, just like PvE is better in open space with other players around you and contributing by way of co-op.