Let's make sure we all understand what a killsteal is

[seekeronos]

In terms of Kill-Stealing, we're watching, and we're going to adjust it to make it nigh impossible. There are extremes to be sure, e.g. Final Fantasy online, the first person to attack a mob gets "claim" to the mob, and you cannot attack it unless they forfeit loot altogether by calling for help...

FFXI.... some good and some awful memorie with that game, lol....

There'd be the horror show of that would come of trying to claim King Behemoth, Fafnir, Aspidochelone, or one of the Sky gods if somebody in one of the HNMLS (highly notorious monster link shells, the FFXI version of an uber raiding guild) "accidentally" CFH'ed or otherwise wiped.... the *really* nasty players would do something like flash/provoke the dragonflies that popped in the same room as Fafnir (uber dragon with uber drops) and train them on top of the few hangers-on from the losing guild, to try and speed up their demise.

On the other extreme you had the elite Japanese players, who'd camp - and most often win claim in some of the higher non-Sky boss mobs (often called "kings") with a single party of six, sometimes less. On Pandemonium server, the Japanese elite guilds would actually rotate the spawns for these kings amongst themselves.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

To say any guild doesn't have skeletons in the closet would be a stretch Understanding that 2002-2003 was a long time ago and how much people might have changed since then is also important.

I think the best way to promote less direct competition is just to make more content. Most MMO's resort to instancing which is detracting from the MM part of MMO. Final Fantasy's system of "I shot it first so it's mine" just changes the dynamic to who has the fastest claim skill (beam users or instant activation skills) and then created macros to detect pixels and trigger a skill. It really didn't stop anything and still lead to hostility.

Triggered boss mobs are also a great tool to cut down on camping/killstealing, assuming we don't recreate the MPP which also just got camped. If a guild leader got 1 token per week or something to trigger a mob, that could be an interesting dynamic to help everyone play nice. FF did have a successful system where random items would drop, trade a stack for a token, and then go fight a boss privately. It gives even the smallest groups the opportunity to do end game stuff without having to camp a mob in shifts 24/7.

I don't have a huge issue with competition, but I can understand the frustration of small guilds getting blocked out of the end game stuff, something we definitely were doing in the previous incarnation of this game.

Indeed, indeed.

It is our desire to create enough content that there's no need for a killsteal to occur, but right now our prime focus is getting at least all of the live systems working (e.g. jobs, scripting for dynamic encounters and missions, etc). We've discussed adding some more raids and things so there's less reason for the drama to occur, much of the drama we saw on Andromeda was due to the only "end-game" stuff being the Tada-O gate and the Warder (prior to the fishbowl). We're trying to plan ways to make it easy for everyone but accordingly the loot may or may not be quite as high of drop rates to compensate. It really depends on the economy.

[Raytan]

A good place to start is decreasing the spawn timer on all those red dragons that drop the nice Pride devices, sorry if im a little bias on this request but I have been sitting at nav 6 in Slayton for a good 12 hours over the last 3 days trying to get this device lol. And this is after giving up on the Tatsu's Pride in Primus.

[Guest Guest]

corse in me sctr it da mobs dat kill steal n der plrz will just 'ave to flock tgthr or die ah ha hA HA HAA. Der game t' easy at da mo so mobs need t' be arder or az farm code in ter limit ter much o' gud ting. Mez favor mobz dat able t' call in bonty 'unter fer der protn if dey bein rpeat killd by same plr fer ages could lead ter some intrs timez.

[Work puter]

[Sphinxi]

I guess Growlz as previous poster.

[kyrm347]

Do I think you were guilty of KillStealing Crichton2 ?

No.

Do I think your actions/behavior can be considered rude in a MMO?

Yes.

Whether you choose to be polite in a MMO, behave poorly, or somewhere inbetween... that is your choice. MMOs are about Players deciding what they want to do, when they want to do it, and how they want to do it. I respect your choice in how you choose to play in this MMO, even if I personally disagree with your choices. All that I ask is that you respect the choices of others and myself, even if you disagree with them.

MMOs are about Players deciding what they want to do, when they want to do it, and how they want to do it, whether anyone else understands, appreciates, or agrees with, why a Player does what they do or chooses not to do.

As for the comments in the screenshot where a Player is professing his/her Guilds awesomeness, All I can say to that behavior/opinion is this...

Guild "size" or "rank" is often an overrated characteristic. I personally ignore the existence of any Player Association whose members make these kind of boasts, as I usually find no merit in the "accomplishments" of such PA's.

[Daywolf]

It is our desire to create enough content that there's no need for a killsteal to occur,

In other words you need to bring bigger guns because he doesent listen to threats and hell...he even gets off on them.

hehe, not going to happen, Kyp. I mean where accidents occur, sure thing! But in cases like this... well I still think the thread should be locked imo. I mean since the topic is not a discreet question about a subject but brings up a specific player to make it personal, it's posted with intention for public humiliation. It's like what Tyran said (he's absolutely right) some people get off on it and other things that mess with players, and the thread is just another attempt at that.

[Whitelighter]

...It is our desire to create enough content that there's no need for a killsteal to occur...loot may not be as high quality

But that in itself is going to create problems. You currently have 2 types of players - those that will KS, camp, and do anything else they can think of to get that uber drop; and those that want the drop but won't (or can't) go to those same extremes to aquire it. If you make more accessible content (via player spawned mobs to reduce KSing) but give them lower quality loot you are (basiclly) saying that if you do not act like a hardcore-elitist you don't deserve the good loot.

The fairest solution, and of course this may be only me opinion, would be to make new/future content spawn-able through long/very-long questlines, like the old ZEM in Xipe Totec. Casual players/guilds could work towards it without fear of someone taking their hard work and players wouldnt need to fight over spawns because everyone would have their own.

A little competition is a wonderful thing, dont get me wrong. But as long as there are timed "world" boss spawns, players that have that "asshole" mentality will grief others because they believe it is THEIR spawn because they can kill it faster. That kind of activity should not be encouraged nor rewarded heavily.

[Gamera]

Don't get so worked up over this, one way or another. We're still stress testing here, and everything we're working toward will be wiped again in the upcoming months. It's for that reason that I think reputation and etiquette are that much more important here. It's not the prizes that matter, it's the respect that comes from good sportsmanship bestowed on you by your fellow players.

When ST4 ends, the toys are gone and we're all starting over yet again. That respect and recognition is the one commodity you'll be able to carry on ahead. Take good care of it.

I don't agree with the passive-aggressive attitude you displayed in those PMs. Gear or class should have no impact on common decency.

[seekeronos]

When ST4 ends, the toys are gone and we're all starting over yet again. That respect and recognition is the one commodity you'll be able to carry on ahead. Take good care of it.

Could not have said it better.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

hehe, not going to happen, Kyp. I mean where accidents occur, sure thing! But in cases like this... well I still think the thread should be locked imo. I mean since the topic is not a discreet question about a subject but brings up a specific player to make it personal, it's posted with intention for public humiliation. It's like what Tyran said (he's absolutely right) some people get off on it and other things that mess with players, and the thread is just another attempt at that.

Well, this is true, but I mean to discourage the behavior to some extent. We can't code out elitism, and we have no intention of going to excessive lengths because that would ruin the game. There are lots of techniques in the game design world used to encourage positive player behavior, this is the kind of thing we'll do. It's a little more subtle but it works better than hard coded solutions, typically. As time goes on, we'll see what happens of course.

In terms of the thread, I don't close them unless they seriously cross a line, otherwise I leave it to the folks who work the forums in the moderation staff and the forum administrator. Since the person posted a graphic, unless it's a modified picture (don't see any telltale signs of such) they displayed their own behavior as well. I imagine the community as a whole would avoid both

[Guest Growlz]

Kyp, wez gotta moik it 'arder so dey gotta work tgtha more!

Yer know mez ideas 're 'eadin dat way fer great glory 'n xp is great risk. When yer want moi ter 'elp wiz da misns fer yer?

Den again wiv yer misn givin xp loik candy, ders no icntv fer KS's ter get outta there.

51% does it tek inna count der sheld rchge if yer leave t' alone ? Do yer still claim

onna mob if yer shoot n flee den come back? Shud yer frfit all claim if yer go bynd 20 K

of a mob? Or if yer aint shot at it in 5 mins?

Wot I can see iz plyrs askin fer more mobz so der got no woriz.

[Work puter]

[Shaddex]

Back in the days of "Live" Enb, there was always a number of groups camping the big drops.

The philosopher and the warder are prime examples of this.

10 full groups of players all waiting for the think to spawn... Who ever got the shot first got the prize.... It was fun camping them...

Yes it sux when you dont get it and I suppose the "solo" ppl or small groups are not gonna get many of them due to the camp size of epic drop spawns..

I never got the warder drop in all my playing life, and I still would turn up when the warder re-spawned. It was a good laugh.

Killstealing does not exist in the game. Bad players do.

[Vinzent Zeppelin[IS]]

Perhaps a solution to (partially) eliminate excessive camping is to add a factor of randomization to the time of the spawn and the location -- a boss and his allies could spawn at any of a number of pre-defined locations throughout the sector, at any particular time.

Also, I hope the infantile attitude displayed by Ever is not representative of his guild.

[Floss]

Perhaps a solution to (partially) eliminate excessive camping is to add a factor of randomization to the time of the spawn and the location -- a boss and his allies could spawn at any of a number of pre-defined locations throughout the sector, at any particular time.

This was roughly the strategy attempted by introducing the MPP. Unfortuantely it still got camped just as hard. The persistent people will get enough help to camp the whole sector if they want something badly enough.

[Sydokun]

The conflict arises when the two groups are after the same item, let's say a skull shield. Group A may not wish to share the kill with Group B due to the horrid drop rate on the item. Grouping is great if the people are after different objectives. I've done this repeatedly (i.e. I'm camping for a ML, and a PW is after a PL), and it's fantastic when it works that way, but if someone doesn't want to share and would rather compete, there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make either group a bunch of "KSers" if they chose to have a shoot out instead of an agreement. A little competition can make the game interesting, and drive the need to improve your skills/gear.

Bartering if you know you are going to get outgunned can also be useful. Trade the boss spawn time if you have it in exchange for the privelege (not a right) of getting the next kill while the clearly superior players holds back, with the agreement of moving on afterwards.

Getting "KSed" as it is usually described is incentive for me to do better in the future and not have it happen again, not a window to chew someone out for having better equipment than me.

Great Post. i'm sorry but this is not a "The Carebears" game your not playing hello "Kitty Island Adventure"

I'm not one to warp in and say get off the nav and start taking it all but on a boss??? It's all fair game. Infact to me people that KS made the game fun for me in live and this is why.

You get peeved the fight back. That does not work you call in guild. They call theres you warp to the mobs asap and it leaves you with a since of exietment. It's just a game. Heck i Remember battling over navs in live just to group with that person a few min later to take on someone tring to out do us both. The gate wars were the best. everyone around hitting the gate and crossing your figures you got the kill. somtimes you did otheres you did not. but it made it that much better when you did.

In closing. it's a game not real life play it don't live it.

[irrelevant]

Hmm, No clue about the specifics of this situation(except that childish things were said ) but on KSing in general:

let me describe something thats happened to me a few times in live on my PS:

I've agrod an small mob group with a boss in it; I'm using many tactics to control the entire group and killing it member by member (being a PS, using grav link and menace combos with my 4 PLs, and running+powerdown)

I've managed to bring the group down except the boss; I'm out of energy and my recharge is only sufficient for 1 gun and keeping enough energy for gravlink to continue kiting... Basically since its certain level 56 tuna fish in this example, I have to keep kiting or else I die... so 1 gun, grav link, and backthrust is all I can do(can't run and powerdown anymore since I don't want to lose the lone boss kill, so I decide to keep his agro and take it slow). I will take the boss out in a few minutes this way, no chance of failure...

And then a couple of JDs pop in when i've done like 30% damage on the boss (which i've been working on including his group for like 40 minutes) and they take the kill

According to the OP's definition that is not a KS... Clearly I think it is.

Well, whatever you call it, I just don't think its proper.

[irrelevant]

Double

[Daywolf]

According to the OP's definition that is not a KS... Clearly I think it is.

Well, whatever you call it, I just don't think its proper.

It's cuz ya picked teh wrong class at duh login screen

[seekeronos]

Great Post. i'm sorry but this is not a "The Carebears" game your not playing hello "Kitty Island Adventure"

Too funny... but at the same time, this game is not a PvP game by design. That said, I think that the those players whose playstyle trends toward enjoying PvP, and would likely certainly welcome a full-blown, non-consensual PvP game atmosphere... also enjoy the sort of cutthroat behaviour that comes with camping boss spawns.

You get peeved the fight back. That does not work you call in guild...

Much drama often ensues, and I wouldn't want to say that most people find massed drama to be much fun. Of course, there are some people who do take pleasure in any sort of misery (so long as it isn't their own - and when it is, one might find that they are the loudest complainers).

[Klyde]

The only way to resolve this type of thing is to be adult about it. We aren't little kids in the school playground, talk to others nicely and usually they respond in kind. Talk trash, and usually thats what you will get back.

In live on Andro, I was part of a small guild with no chance of ever outgunning the MM, FF, or Static guilds, so we chatted them up and often got invited along on raids.

Being friendly works far more often than being an asshat.

[Daywolf]

Too funny... but at the same time, this game is not a PvP game by design. That said, I think that the those players whose playstyle trends toward enjoying PvP, and would likely certainly welcome a full-blown, non-consensual PvP game atmosphere... also enjoy the sort of cutthroat behaviour that comes with camping boss spawns.

Nothing wrong with this game by design for PvP. And I don't mind non-consensual, but it's irritating to hear the solo players wine about it and do what you just did. I mean I wouldn't clump everyone into one pile, there are many that hunt the "cutthroat players" in such games. Can't do anything about it here though, rude players have immunity, but at least I guess they can't start ganking on lowbie/newbie players. Now if this were non-consensual, if you actually had experience with it, you wouldn't be trashing on those players, as you would be thanking such players for their protection. Some of the best mmog players I have ever met were such guardians, they were not cutthroats. But mmog's are mostly solo based now, it went that way six or seven years ago, and the right to earn valor and honor in PvP has been tainted for the give-me-give-me players. heh

[kyrm347]

Great Post. i'm sorry but this is not a "The Carebears" game your not playing hello "Kitty Island Adventure"

I'm not one to warp in and say get off the nav and start taking it all but on a boss??? It's all fair game. Infact to me people that KS made the game fun for me in live and this is why.

You get peeved the fight back. That does not work you call in guild. They call theres you warp to the mobs asap and it leaves you with a since of exietment. It's just a game. Heck i Remember battling over navs in live just to group with that person a few min later to take on someone tring to out do us both. The gate wars were the best. everyone around hitting the gate and crossing your figures you got the kill. somtimes you did otheres you did not. but it made it that much better when you did.

In closing. it's a game not real life play it don't live it.

But you say I should get angry, declare war and fight over it? That's ridiculous. Such decisions in real life have led to all sorts of needless destruction and misery and I will not repeat the same mistakes in EnB or any other virtual reality. There is too much drama in real life and I participate in MMOs to escape that foolishness. To you conflict between Players is fun, to me it is pointless in any MMO.

Fair enough. To you it's just a game and it has no connection to real life whatsoever. I respect your right as a Player to "play the game" in this fashion.

However, not all Players see "the game" as you do. I myself see all MMOs as virtual realities created by Mankind, and as they are created by us, they are by default extensions of "real life"... they are just another aspect of reality. Real people from real life enter MMOs and invest time and energy to achieve goals and to pursue enjoyment. What I choose to do or not do in this MMO or any other does affect other people. I therefore believe I have a duty to treat every Player with respect even if they don't choose to do the same. This is how I "play the game". If I see a Mob being camped, I will move on to do something else for the time being.

The Mob will spawn again. I can hunt it another day without creating needless conflict with other Players. When that happens to me I will not whine about it. If you want to camp the Mob, go ahead... all of you will log off and go back to the real life eventually.

And in so doing I respect your right to play the game how you choose, while playing the game how I choose. All is good.

[Gamera]

Note to self: don't JS warrior classes.

They picked the wrong class if they don't like needing to tow.

[cpwings]

As long as there are different weapons types with varied ranges, there will always be accidents and inadvertant attacks on a mob that is already being engaged by someone. But as soon as you target a mob you can clearly see if it has already taken damage and to just swoop in and outgun someone just because you can is clearly wrong. In live certain guilds were well known for this behavior. Or it's a warrior class with big guns, that it may have built for themselves, but don't forget the devices and engines built for you by a member of the wrong class or the miner that supplies the comp builder to provide the 200% comps that help get the 200% anything that all insist on. Just my 2 cents worth.